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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 5:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | Oh, just one more point...according to Numbers 16, it was MOSES' INTERCESSION that made it such that only the persons' responsible got swallowed up. And it was MOSES' INTERCEEDING ACTION that made it such that the whole assembly wasn't killed before God's wrath. You saw that right??
If it weren't for Moses, God would have killed EVERYONE...just like God would have killed MOSES if it weren't for Zipporah circumcising their son on the spot. You remember that one too, right?? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/5/2005 5:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Laika:
quote:
A God not meticulously controlling this world.
If God sent the tsunami, then we're opposing Him and suppressing His body count by steming infection, disease, starvation. His house is divided.
Answer my questions, man. Do you believe that Numbers 16 happened? That God has that kind of mind-boggling power? Moreover, do you really believe God is so weak that he ABSOLUTELY, BY NO MEANS could have stemmed the destruction and loss of life anymore than what we see..even while trying EVERYTHING GOD POSSIBLY COULD?
Do you believe this?
How do you know the extent of God’s intervention or lack of it? How do you know if He did not save millions of lives, maybe even your own? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 5:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
This was a rare earthquake in the Indian Ocean. How many has God prevented?
How many more than 150,000 could have been killed? We don't know.
Beyond 6 million Jews and 3 millions Slavs, how many more could have been killed by the National Socialist Party of Germany? What if they had come into total control of Europe? We don't know.
We don't know what's going on in the background. But we do know, due to the very image of the living God in Jesus Christ, that God didn't do this wanton, mass destruction.
and...
Spark:
quote:
How do you know the extent of God’s intervention or lack of it? How do you know if He did not save millions of lives, maybe even your own?
Heh. A answer going on an UNVERIFIABLE assertion of faith. HAHAHA!
There's a story about a neurotic guy who lives in a rural town who believes that snapping his fingers keeps tigers away...so he snaps his fingers all the time. Someone with some sense tells him "Yo, there are no tigers in this part of the country. Actually, there are no tigers around for miles!" The neurotic looks at his friend with a straight face and says...
"See how well it's working?" 
Get the point??
Doc uses this in this weeks sermon online. (Y'all check that one out!) The idea that it's only the power of God that is keeping things as good as they are. That if it weren't for God, things would be EVEN MORE HELLISH than they already are. Again, an unverfiable assertion of faith. Neurotic belief for the sake of psychological certitude.
At any rate, that's the downfall of this argument. One who believes as you do HAS to say that God, doing absolutely EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER, couldn't stop the destruction we see in these pictures. So we at least KNOW that we can't trust God for protection against these types of things. Like protection while praising God in a church. Weak.
If one presupposes that God IN NO WAY willed the tsunami (not even as a "least of the evils" option), the only answers about what could constrain God to this degree would be DIRECT DEMONIC INFLUNCE of the tsunami. Meaning the the "devil" or one of his cohorts REALLY DID do this. And there wasn't enough "prayer cover" to let God work. There wasn't even enough prayer cover to protect His faithful followers! God's hands were tied and wringing like hell! With the free will defense, it's the ONLY real answer that would work. And it DOESN'T work. All it would show is the REAL power Satan has in this world that God CANNOT handle. Some God. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/5/2005 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
There's a story about a neurotic guy who lives in a rural town who believes that snapping his fingers keeps tigers away...so he snaps his fingers all the time. Someone with some sense tells him "Yo, there are no tigers in this part of the country. Actually, there are no tigers around for miles!" The neurotic looks at his friend with a straight face and says...
"See how well it's working?"
Get the point??
Doc uses this in this weeks sermon online. (Y'all check that one out!) The idea that it's only the power of God that is keeping things as good as they are. That if it weren't for God, things would be EVEN MORE HELLISH than they already are. Again, an unverfiable assertion of faith. Neurotic belief for the sake of psychological certitude.
At any rate, that's the downfall of this argument. One who believes as you do HAS to say that God, doing absolutely EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER, couldn't stop the destruction we see in these pictures. So we at least KNOW that we can't trust God for protection against these types of things. Like protection while praising God in a church. Weak.
If one presupposes that God IN NO WAY willed the tsunami (not even as a "least of the evils" option), the only answers about what could constrain God to this degree would be DIRECT DEMONIC INFLUNCE of the tsunami. Meaning the the "devil" or one of his cohorts REALLY DID do this. And there wasn't enough "prayer cover" to let God work. There wasn't even enough prayer cover to protect His faithful followers! God's hands were tied and wringing like hell! With the free will defense, it's the ONLY real answer that would work. And it DOESN'T work. All it would show is the REAL power Satan has in this world that God CANNOT handle. Some God.
The mystery is found in the creation not the Creator. In this fallen world, rain can fall on both the righteous farmer’s crops as well as the unrighteous farmer’s crops. It is the law of nature that brings lighting upon the righteous farmer while sparing the unrighteous. This world is not always fair, but keep faith for justice will prevail in the world to come.
P.S. thanks for your story, LOL. I will check out Doc’s sermon.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 5:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
1. God always removes His people before mass destruction.
That's why He hasn't destroyed the entire earth yet. We're still on it.
He leaves the tares in order to spare the wheat.
First of all, it makes no sense whatsoever to extrapolate biblical accounts of what God does to saying that this is the way God ALWAYS works. Let me show you something...
Amos 9:7
"Are not you Israelites
the same to me as the Cushites ?"
declares the LORD .
"Did I not bring Israel up from Egypt,
the Philistines from Caphtor
and the Arameans from Kir?
Not many people cite this scripture. It's God basically saying that the Israelite people are not the ONLY people that he's brought out of bondage with a mighty hand. Now, if I were to take your line of thinking with respect to exoduses, I'd have to say that EVERYTIME God does an exodus, he HAS to 1) part some water and 2) use the passover motif. But this is just NOT true. And you'd know that. Just because I say that God does an exodus event doesn't NECESSARILY mean that God HAS to use the same MO everytime. Same way here. We don't have to say that EVERY TIME God does mass destruction, he ALWAYS removes his people. If ANYTHING, we have data the indicates that God WOULD destroy everyone without someone to intercede. We see this with Abraham and Sodom, David and his people (after the census debacle), and Moses and the people. Given this, it would be inductive to say that God WILL cause total destruction UNLESS there is sufficient intercession going on.
So, think on that!
--------------
Laika:
quote:
2. God's house is never divided against itself.
To say that God sent the tsunami to 'punish' while encouraging us to bring mercy to oppose what God is doing and suppress His body count, is positing that God's house is divided.
Hey. I'm not saying this. I'm not John Piper. I'm taking the stance that God was UNQUALIFIABLY against this tsunami occuring and UNQUALIFIABLY for stemming the destruction and loss of life as much as possible. No divided house here. But you do have a VERY weak God who cannot stop a tsunami from killing 150,000+ people...even while working His absolute hardest! Even if it WAS Satan HIMSELF riding the damn thing, we'd really have to say that God couldn't do any more than what he did. Doesn't this give you pause???
Questions answered.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake: (emphasis mine)
quote:
Your concept of God leaves you fearing the devil and not God. If the devil can kill 150K people at will because he wants to and God cannot stop him if He so decides, it seems small comfort to offer to those who are oppressed by the devil and held captive by him to do his will.
YES. THANK YOU!
The devil truly IS the "god is this age" and is a bad mamma jamma to be FEARED. If natural evil or even SPECIFICALLY DEMON-GUIDED natural disasters can be THIS BAD, even with God warring against it...
what possible trust could we have in God for help in this life? It be a hit-and-miss thing...AT BEST! | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
Genesis 18:25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"
Heh. Thanks for citing the exact scripture. It is at Abraham's INTERCESSION that God doesn't kill everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. It is Abe the negotiates God all the way down in numbers of righteous people.
This fits the motif: God actually WILL destroy ALL...unless suitable intercession is done.
Don't you see that??? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
I guess my concept of fatherhood differs from you, Mephi and spenlake.
I'd rather have a father who always acts towards me benevolently, then a father who is arbitrary, capricious and contrary.
You can never relax in the arms of an arbitrary, capricious and contrary father, everytime he puts his arm around you, you'd flinch.
Maybe someday when you have kids, Mephi, you'll understand.
1) I have two sons. Ages 7 and 2. and I love them very, very much. Don't pull that card. Do not go there. Please.
2) It doesn't matter what you'd rather have existentially. Hell, you can have it for all I care. I'm just wondering are you looking consistently at ALL the ramifications of the God in which you believe! If you are willing to have a fairly weak God that you have to justify all the time via mysterious circumstances, that's on you. It would amaze me how you would have any enduring providential HOPE in this God for this life. It would amaze me how you would actually "believe God" for ANY of your real needs or protection. It would amaze me how you would really see prayer as being THAT efficacious. But that's me.
Do you. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Laika:
quote:
I guess my concept of fatherhood differs from you, Mephi and spenlake.
I'd rather have a father who always acts towards me benevolently, then a father who is arbitrary, capricious and contrary.
You can never relax in the arms of an arbitrary, capricious and contrary father, everytime he puts his arm around you, you'd flinch.
Maybe someday when you have kids, Mephi, you'll understand.
1) I have two sons. Ages 7 and 2. and I love them very, very much. Don't pull that card. Do not go there. Please.
Go there? I'm used to arguing with single determinists with no experience of familial responsibility.
quote:
2) It doesn't matter what you'd rather have existentially. Hell, you can have it for all I care. I'm just wondering are you looking consistently at ALL the ramifications of the God in which you believe! If you are willing to have a fairly weak God that you have to justify all the time via mysterious circumstances, that's on you. It would amaze me how you would have any enduring providential HOPE in this God for this life. It would amaze me how you would actually "believe God" for ANY of your real needs or protection. It would amaze me how you would really see prayer as being THAT efficacious. But that's me.
Do you.
There's no "mystery" in my beliefs. I've presented them, you've not adequately answered the logical fallacy and scriptural contradtictions that positing God's blame for the tsunami exhibit.
If God is at war throughout the old testament and Jesus is at war throughout the gospel and Paul says we wage war, whence comes the belief that every attack of the enemy has a "purpose" detailed by God?
Even Joshua and his army suffered casulties while fighting God's battles. That's a perfect example of God at war, taking casulties.
Is God's weakness displayed in those battle accounts?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
I see Noah and family removed before destruction.
I see Lot and family removed before destruction.
I see Rahab and family removed before destruction.
I see the sheep removed before the goats are destroyed.
I don't see anyone removed before the tsunami hit.
I know a man and his family that was removed from the path of the tsunami before it hit (http://www.iglworld.org/).
quote:
It is just too hard to take the news coming in each day of the loss of those we know. But in the midst of such grief and pain, there are also encouraging stories that are being reported. In Cuddalore, Pastor Peter had a dream on the night of the 24th. He dreamed of a dove delivering a written message to him that read “destruction is on its way, go away”. He was so baffled by the dream that he took his family immediately after conducting the service on Christmas day and came to Tindivanam to get encouragement from our regional coordinator, Pastor John Selvaraj.
Since Peter was visibly shaken, Pastor John asked the family to stay with him till after Sunday saying he would go with him after the Sunday service and spend the next day in prayer with him. Peter’s church and most of his congregation were washed away by the massive tsunami while one of the elders was leading the service Sunday morning the 26th. Peter and his family are safe. But he is still in shock over the loss.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | | To all the open view theists out there who believe that God was IN NO WAY involved in the actual tsunami,
Be served notice.
Your God cannot stop a natural disaster...tsunami...from killing 150,000+ people.
Your God cannot protect a number of churches from being destroyed by said tsunami.
Your God cannot protect a church full of faithful parishioners worshipping God from perishing in the tsunami.
Your God cannot protect over 45,000 children from perishing in the tsunami.
Your God can tap Himself out, doing ABSOLULTELY EVERYTHING HE CAN...and cannot do any of the above.
And this is the God that you actually believe can help and protect YOU in your daily life.
Live with it. Deal with it. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:27 AM (GMT -6) | | The Story:
quote:
It is just too hard to take the news coming in each day of the loss of those we know. But in the midst of such grief and pain, there are also encouraging stories that are being reported. In Cuddalore, Pastor Peter had a dream on the night of the 24th. He dreamed of a dove delivering a written message to him that read “destruction is on its way, go away”. He was so baffled by the dream that he took his family immediately after conducting the service on Christmas day and came to Tindivanam to get encouragement from our regional coordinator, Pastor John Selvaraj.
Since Peter was visibly shaken, Pastor John asked the family to stay with him till after Sunday saying he would go with him after the Sunday service and spend the next day in prayer with him. Peter’s church and most of his congregation were washed away by the massive tsunami while one of the elders was leading the service Sunday morning the 26th. Peter and his family are safe. But he is still in shock over the loss.
Heh. Well, I guess you win, Laika. If this is true, it looks like God really DOES get his people out before he destroys everything. Obviously, the rest of Peter's church weren't worthy to get such a notification...not to mention the numbers of children who were killed. I guess God did all he could...right?
DAMN...ALL...OF..THIS.
WEAK! WEAK! WEAK!!!!
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Satan's tsunami, eh?
Is God really that weak, man? Level with me. Is he?
Is Satan and demonic forces so POWERFUL that he can do something like this, even with God working as hard as he can?
Is this really the case?
Or are you the like the neurotic finger snapper...actually believing that this level of destruction is actually EVIDENCE of God working for the good?
Are you for REAL? | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
I guess my concept of fatherhood differs from you, Mephi and spenlake.
I'd rather have a father who always acts towards me benevolently, then a father who is arbitrary, capricious and contrary.
You can never relax in the arms of an arbitrary, capricious and contrary father, everytime he puts his arm around you, you'd flinch.
Maybe someday when you have kids, Mephi, you'll understand.
Seems hypocritical here, Laika.
You believe in a God that kills the infants and unborn of the flood, Sodom and Canaan because the infants are deserving of death.
I believe in a God that has the power to calm the tsunami as He calmed the waved and that even now the waves and the wind will obey Him. My God said:
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.
A tsunami is a calamity and God creates them through His means. Those unsaved that die are no less deserving than the infants of the flood and those that live experience mercy instead of death. Those righteous who die experience "gain" as Paul said "to die is gain."
God is just and loving and not capricious.
Spen Lake
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