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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > John Piper's Response to the Tsunami | Forum Quick Jump
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
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| Posted 1/5/2005 6:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | FYI, Laika. I'm not a determinist.
I'm an open view theist. Ask Doc.
Just thought you should know. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:37 AM (GMT -6) | | So much to say... so howabout I just ramble for a bit :)
First, John Piper, gee. He really has a special way of helping people deal with grief. sure makes me wonder. I'd love to sit down with him and have him share how he sees God in his head. WHAT does that God look like John? seriously.
Tsunami. A couple thoughts. God is not weak, but He is working with many variables. Some of the variables are a) the god of this world (and his undisputed dominion - as Dr. Boyd noted on another thread b) the fact that people are praying and prayer avails (I don't think we can know if God limited this act of destruction due to the power of prayer or not... I do think it could have been worse) c) Possibly Matthew 24:6-8 "These things must take place" ... there will be signs of the beginning of birth pangs. Perhaps (as is noted) earthquakes and terrible destruction are some of those signs - look at the fig tree and all that d) Many more variables I'm sure...but God is definitely not weak.
I don't think we're dealing with an either/or here Meph (weak or behind evil events in a mysterious way). I think we all agree God is mysterious in some way (no?) just not in the way Pastor John thinks mysterious. It is like our agreement that God is sovereign, ya know.
John Piper might thing that God's just "dealin" with his miserable creation and going off while I think God is mysteriously working in all this to bring everything to fruition so we can all go home. Different meanings behind our words.
Know what I mean? :)
Maybe Jesus said "this must take place" because He knew that these kinds of things would happen as the WAR comes to a head. The enemy is going to be furious and take it out on everything within his domain... pulling out all his guns as a last ditch effort to steal,kill,and destroy the beloved. God, on the other hand, is working for the good all along. I don't know, but it seems that could be one way of looking at it. The creation is groaning...and God knows.
Meph quote:
Is God NOT powerful enough to rescue ANYONE in a church full of people praising HIS name??? (and make no mistake, this wasn't the ONLY church destroyed in this!)
Me: Well, I do think God is powerful enough to "rescue" them, however, I don't know why He would "rescue" them from coming home...if that's His view of death for the believer. It's the suffering of the ones who LOST the people in the churches that I don't get... See the difference?
Meph:quote:
Again, is this all just a bunch of bull@#$%??? What the #&@# is all this??? Please tell me!
Me: yep. it's all a bunch of bull@#$%. Right now I believe all this is what WE see when satan (and co.) gets closer to the end of his rope. It's just a guess, but I do think he has a great deal to do with it.
I'm somewhat troubled by the fact that I seem to have to have a logical way to look at things like this. When I take time to just listen to God it's interesting how much sense He makes! (It's amazing how I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, but the Word of God stays in my heart forever...) When I was praying/wondering about all this I read scripture like a crazy person. Maybe I'm just sorting things out by sameness, but a couple things have seemed to form "themes" in my head. The first (and most important) is to stay awake (Dr. Boyd has preached this message recently as have other pastors prior to the tsunami and it IS mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24 (42) as are earthquakes, suffering, and "take note, I have told you beforehand" kind of stuff. In one parable about the Kingdom, the ten virgins were to be ready - to stay awake. There are other Kingdom related stories with this same theme. 2) Another theme is the goodness of God and the fact that He is LIGHT not darkness. This thought leads me to believe He's not the cause of this kind of suffering. The idea of God causing this particular suffering because He's lost patience with non believers/"sinners" doesn't make sense to me. On the other hand, it DOES make a lot of sense that the god of this age acted and now even the ones who could/should hear Jesus weep with those who weep are accusing Him right along with the accuser... after all this would malign the character of God nicely. 3) I'm not claiming to have things figured out. This ones the most difficult. God DOES get angry. Scripture seems to attest to His "righteous" anger. I don't know what that looks like on our end. (He also "opposes the proud" I don't know what that looks like either ...And I'm still confused why we would pray "lead us not into temptation" and there's more where that came from... so  )
'nuff for now
love,
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/5/2005 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | We are NOT dealing with WAR, Laika. We are dealing with NATURAL EVIL.
To even TRY to make what you are saying stick, you'd have to say that the tsunami was DIRECTLY MANIPULATED by Satan or demons. (and the argument still sucks after that!) Is that what you are doing? | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/5/2005 6:51 AM (GMT -6) | | ok, I started writing a post... put it in a small window while I got caught up reading something else...AND PAGES went by by the time I got back to signing and posting what I wrote. Sorry for missing a billion posts! You guys are too fast. I'm way behind!
~ selah | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/5/2005 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Aw, Selah...
quote:
Tsunami. A couple thoughts. God is not weak, but He is working with many variables. Some of the variables are a) the god of this world (and his undisputed dominion - as Dr. Boyd noted on another thread b) the fact that people are praying and prayer avails (I don't think we can know if God limited this act of destruction due to the power of prayer or not... I do think it could have been worse) c) Possibly Matthew 24:6-8 "These things must take place" ... there will be signs of the beginning of birth pangs. Perhaps (as is noted) earthquakes and terrible destruction are some of those signs - look at the fig tree and all that d) Many more variables I'm sure...but God is definitely not weak.
Bottom line, Selah. The variables you mention (particularly a and b) are the ONLY variables that make any sense...and you'd have to say that the tsunami was DIRECTLY MANIPULATED by demonic forces...and couldn't be repelled by God (or the power of prayer). How is this NOT some serious finitude of God in operation??
With this, how could YOU trust God to protect you or your loved ones? How could YOU trust God to provide for all of your needs? How could YOU trust God to take care of you when all hell breaks looks. How in God's NAME could you have unshakable faith in God's providential ability...given your perspective. In the face of radically gratuitous evil!
He's weak, Selah. Whether this weakness is SELF-CHOSEN is irrelevant.
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Selah:
quote:
Well, I do think God is powerful enough to "rescue" them, however, I don't know why He would "rescue" them from coming home...if that's His view of death for the believer. It's the suffering of the ones who LOST the people in the churches that I don't get... See the difference?
Two sides of the same coin, boo. You know that.
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Yo, you keep working it out. Do you. I just don't understand how people who believe like you do don't seem to think of the ramifications of the practical life.
What can you ultimately trust God for IN THIS LIFE besides his everlasting love and his constant presences and emphathy with us? What USE is petitionary prayer? Seriously. God MAY be able to help us and may NOT. It's hit or miss. How could we NOT be "doubleminded" as far as receiving from the Lord???
Are we just a bunch of people snapping our fingers, really believing that we are keeping the tigers away?? And then if a tiger does come up and bite us (by some mysterious reason), we say...
"Whew! Well, there probably would have been at least 3 or 4 of them, had it not been for my finger snapping! My snapping still works!"
People...it's LUNACY. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/5/2005 7:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Laika: Natural evil is satan making war on people.
See, evil is not a thing. I don't think of it as "natural evil", I think of it as natural processes proceeding differently than they were created to proceed.
Thus natural processes leave equilibrium for no apparent reason.
It's nature out of control.
Boyd spoke of Jesus 'choking' the storm. That makes sense when you understand storms as nature out of control, not as God's grim reaper.
Satan can do nothing with natural evil without God's permission. Natural calamities belong to God.
“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?
“Where is the way that the light is divided,
Or the east wind scattered on the earth?
“Who has cleft a channel for the flood,
Or a way for the thunderbolt,
‘I smote you and every work of your hands with blasting wind, mildew and hail; yet you did not come back to Me,’ declares the LORD.
So pursue them with Your tempest
And terrify them with Your storm.
Then the LORD will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord GOD will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.
Spen Lake
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/5/2005 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Laika: Natural evil is satan making war on people.
See, evil is not a thing. I don't think of it as "natural evil", I think of it as natural processes proceeding differently than they were created to proceed.
Thus natural processes leave equilibrium for no apparent reason.
It's nature out of control.
Boyd spoke of Jesus 'choking' the storm. That makes sense when you understand storms as nature out of control, not as God's grim reaper.
Satan can do nothing with natural evil without God's permission. Natural calamities belong to God.
“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?
“Where is the way that the light is divided,
Or the east wind scattered on the earth?
“Who has cleft a channel for the flood,
Or a way for the thunderbolt,
‘I smote you and every work of your hands with blasting wind, mildew and hail; yet you did not come back to Me,’ declares the LORD.
Your example is corrective punishment, not total destruction.
Note:
1. He didn't kill them, just bad weather, harmful to their crops. (that's what hail and mildew harm, the Israelites didn't have any cars to claim hail damage to State Farm)
2. They were still alive and able to "come back" to God.
Where's the removal of the righteous from the path of the tsunami, all of them?
What corrective action is God expecting from the 150,000 dead people?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
quote:
Bottom line. God is faith -full. I believe this like there are no words...because I have experienced it. Everything else has to work around that including my theodicy.
Understood. No one's denying that experience. I personally feel like I have experienced God being faithful to me as well. Things bordering on the miraculous. However, if we are going to integrate this meaningfully into the open view framework, we have to say that God's intentions are always faithful, but God's IMPACTS on our world for our behalf DON'T always actualize. Just because God answered your prayer in a wonderfully powerful way one day doesn't mean it's gonna happen the next time. (This would even exist if one were a determinist!) Moreover, your loss may be an ACCEPTABLE RISK to God, in the grand scheme of things. This is part and parcel the life of faith.
The main difference is that when an open view theist says unqualifiably that God can IN NO WAY been involved in the actualization of any particular evils...AND God always does everything God can to minimize all evil...that a shadow casts over some things. At the very least, it posits an EXTREMELY powerful enemy of God who can suddenly and disastrously disrupt things on an individual and global scale...that God CANNOT always defeat. It also introduces the idea of radically gratuitous evil...such that even God has to get LUCKY to pull certain things off.
I don't see how this doesn't affect the faith of people who believe in the guidance, provision, and providence of God. At least the determinists will say that gratuitous evil doesn't exist and that ALL calamity has ultimate meaning and purpose. AND they can affirm, like Piper does, that Satan is NOT the big dawg...God is. Open view theists who believe like you, however, have to say that Satan is a VERY, VERY big dawg who can wreck shop at will and often prevail against God to the point of killing 150,000+ people with God going full blast against him. Perhaps this was an ACCEPTABLE RISK to God ...to leave this in the hands of his praying people...and the prayer wasn't enough. If so, that's a HUGE thought...because obviously the prayer cover wasn't enough to save whole congregations of his own believers!
And let's not even talk about the problems with stuff like Numbers 16!
See the issues, Selah? These must be faced head-on!
-----------------------------------
About SK. From what I understand, SK believed in the teleological suspension of the ethical. The assumptions of some open view theists (ala Pinnock, Sanders, et. al) would NOT allow for this. Teleological suspension of the ethical would ALLOW for God to use "evil" means for greater good purposes. We've actually be down this road. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/5/2005 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
If I can't entrust your God with the life of my family, how can I trust him for eternal life?"
:::chin falls to the floor:::
Entrusting God with the life of your family???
Laika, do you feel like you can trust God with the life of your family?? Do you feel like you can trust God to protect YOUR family from some "natural" calamity??
Absolutely amazing! | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 1/5/2005 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Haven’t read everything. Too much. Too little time.
Laika: Oh, so the runaway train in the train track analogy represents moral evil, not natural evil. Runaway trains seem non-moral to me. Runaway trains and runaway tectonic plates seem similar to me.
Tom: Trains don’t fire up their own engines and race down the track on their own. Was the Carlie thread so long ago that the point of this analogy is now lost? The train analogy, as I used it, was an example of moral evil in operation. Not like tectonic plates at all.
Laika: See, evil is not a thing. I don't think of it as "natural evil", I think of it as natural processes proceeding differently than they were created to proceed. Thus natural processes leave equilibrium for no apparent reason. It's nature out of control.
Tom: I don’t know. I just am not so sure there’s anything unnatural about tectonic plates slipping past each other. Even in the absence of demonic activity, what do we expect a living, breathing planet to do? I’m open to suggestions. But whether or not demons are involved, it does seem to me that such things are not examples of nature “leaving” equilibrium for no apparent reason. On the contrary, there are perfectly reasonable physical causes behind earthquakes which illustrate such events are nature “seeking” equilibrium (between the plates in this case).
Mephi: Bottom line, Selah. The variables you mention (particularly a and b) are the ONLY variables that make any sense...and you'd have to say that the tsunami was DIRECTLY MANIPULATED by demonic forces...and couldn't be repelled by God (or the power of prayer). How is this NOT some serious finitude of God in operation?
Tom: It’s a serious finitude on God’s part if not being able to stop such events under certain conditions was NOT something God already freely agreed to when he created the world, if nature (or demons manipulating nature) is forcing God into situations the possibility of which God did not freely permit in creating, presenting God with factors and/or issues that he had not already contemplated—more than that, which God had not already contemplated AND allowed. So if God didn’t exercise power to stop this tsunami (which he has the sheer muscle to do), it would seem to me that this absence of exercise of divine power is explainable in terms of conditions and rules God designed and decided he was cool with and whose existence were necessary to God’s ultimate goals in creating.
Mephi: With this, how could YOU trust God to protect you or your loved ones? How could YOU trust God to provide for all of your needs? How could YOU trust God to take care of you when all hell breaks looks. How in God's NAME could you have unshakable faith in God's providential ability...given your perspective. In the face of radically gratuitous evil!
He's weak, Selah. Whether this weakness is SELF-CHOSEN is irrelevant.
Tom: But whether it’s self-chosen or not is HUGELY relevant.
Now, I pray for protection because I believe such prayer is “a” factor among all the factors that define the entire context (natural, human, angelic, and divine) which ends up determining whether or not my daughter is in a car accident when she drives home. Prayers for protection and not guarantees, agreed. But that doesn’t mean there’s no point in praying for protection. Such prayers are wise, given that they take their place among those factors that influence events—yes, like seat belts. Do we refuse to ever wear seat belts because seat belts are not a 100% guarantee that we won’t get hurt, or die, when wearing one in an accident? No. We wear them because it’s often true that we get hurt, or die, for failure to wear a seat belt. Seat belts are only one factor, but sometimes they’re the deciding factor.
And Laika, Mephi really IS an open theist. Trust me.  Now, my only point about bringing up the train track analogy was to respond to your comment to Mephi that he (and I) must view this tsunami as God switching the tracks to avoid a greater evil. It just doesn’t follow that because God may sometimes switch the tracks that every evil is the end result of his having done so. It may be the case that nothing was switched.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 1/5/2005 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: If I can't entrust God with the life of my family, how can I trust him for eternal life?
Mephi: :::chin falls to the floor:::
Tom: Me too! Chin tooootally on the floor...speechless.
Are you sure you wanted to say this, Laika? Surely the Christians of Sri Lanka who were swept away in the flood prayed for their own protection. Surely there were relatives praying for their protection too. Can the survivors no longer trust God for eternal life since God did not answer their prayers for the physical protection of their relatives?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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| Posted 1/5/2005 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi:
quote:
Bottom line, Selah. The variables you mention (particularly a and b) are the ONLY variables that make any sense...and you'd have to say that the tsunami was DIRECTLY MANIPULATED by demonic forces...and couldn't be repelled by God (or the power of prayer). How is this NOT some serious finitude of God in operation??
me: I don't think I'd have to say that the tsunami couldn't be repelled by God (or by the power of prayer) because I don't know 1)what God was doing/what God WAS repelling and 2) who WAS or WASN'T praying...and for what...and with what kind of faith...and with/without fasting etc. In other words, I think we can say God COULD have repelled the tsunami, but only if his mode of operation would work to do so. [by MO I mean: "in terms of conditions and rules God designed and decided he was cool with and whose existence were necessary to God’s ultimate goals in creating." ~stolen from Tom]
How do you interpret these things? How can you say you trust God to be love and ever present (which you learned from scripture and experience) and not trust him to answer prayer? I don't get it. Jas. 5:16 pray "so that" it can have an effect (on healing).
Effective prayer examples all over the place. Jesus said pray: "our Father ...give us this day our daily bread (SO THAT we may have it)...boo back because you have experienced this and "know" (as in intimately) that God is faithful. For me this has to be our starting point.
[for clarity I'm not claiming that God witholds blessings from someone and gives blessings to another according to the measure of their faith - as is commonly preached. I do know how incredibly much this kind of theology can hurt people. All I'm saying is that believing in God's FAITH - full character is necessary...before we can go further]
mephquote:
With this, how could YOU trust God to protect you or your loved ones? How could YOU trust God to provide for all of your needs? How could YOU trust God to take care of you when all hell breaks looks. How in God's NAME could you have unshakable faith in God's providential ability...given your perspective. In the face of radically gratuitous evil!
me: well, where do I start? Want to hear a testimony? Suffice to say that i do totally and completely trust God. I don't act like it sometimes, a lot maybe. But really, truly, I do. I trust in His love for me. Even though the world looks very unloving I know He loves me, completely. But, gee, HE told us this Meph, right? john 16:33 "in this world you will have many troubles - but "I' have overcome the world" I believe that we will have many troubles as much as I believe in Him. Was He lying when he said that? no. Then why should we be surprised when we see it happening. I think it's more surprising when we DON'T see it.
Lemme ask you this. If you don't trust God to provide and protect -- who can you trust?
quote:
He's weak, Selah. Whether this weakness is SELF-CHOSEN is irrelevant.
"I have overcome the wold" "greater is He that is in you then he that's in the world" ...etc. He is not weak mephi. really.
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quote:
Two sides of the same coin, boo. You know that.
Ok, on the one hand I do know that, but on the other God does have a unique perspective doesn't He?
----------------------
quote:
...
What can you ultimately trust God for IN THIS LIFE besides his everlasting love and his constant presences and emphathy with us? What USE is petitionary prayer? Seriously. God MAY be able to help us and may NOT. It's hit or miss.
If you can trust him for his everlasting love, constant presence and empathy with us then you are doing exceptionally well. Petitionary prayer is USEFUL because Jesus said it is. Matthew 7:11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven (your loving,ever present and empathic Father)give what is good to those who ask Him.
How about Luke 18:6-7 And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them? 8 I tell you, he will quickly grant justice to them. And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"
Interesting huh? I'm thinkin a lot about verse 8 these days. Faith (like abe's faith) is rare...
quote:
How could we NOT be "doubleminded" as far as receiving from the Lord???
no clue...just jump back on the boat and try walking on water again later I guess. I'm certainly not experiencing myself as single minded Meph. no. no no.
love
selah
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey Tom, for some reason I thought we (me and you) were on opposing sides on the Carlie thread ...or at least we disagreed about something. Do you recall what that was?
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/5/2005 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
quote:
Laika: If I can't entrust God with the life of my family, how can I trust him for eternal life?
Tom: Me too. Chin tooootally on the floor.
Are you sure you wanted to say this, Laika? So what can the Christians of Sri Lanka trust God for since God did not answer THEIR prayers (which they surely prayed) for the physical protection of their relatives who were swept away in the flood? I guess they can't trust God to deliver their souls to eternal life.
If something happens to them, it wasn't God who did it.
If something happens to them, I knew God did His best to protect them.
You guys value freakish control over that of sterling character, imho.
Here's the choice:
a. no bully can touch you, but God will smack you Himself
b. God will NEVER smack you, though a bully may occaisionally
choice a, character issue
choice b, power issue
Hint: Marry for character, not power.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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JET
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Total Posts : 397
| Posted 1/5/2005 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | I often skip these discussions because I don’t have the time it takes to carefully think through my ideas and put them into words. But I’m going to throw this out despite the fact that it needs a lot more work.
I hear some people wanting to say its either:
1. God is weak (i.e., God wants to prevent all pain in this world, but can’t)
or
2. God is evil (i.e., God is the cause of at least some gratuitous or unnecessary pain)
Lately, I’ve been thinking about a third option:
3. a. Natural evil results from either: (i) Satan or (ii) a process-type view of Creation becoming; evolving, etc., per God’s sovereign choice (ala Iconoclast?). (I don’t know which one I believe.)
b. God is powerful enough to prevent all pain; but preventing pain in this life is not God’s primary objective. (Think "soul-making", inter alia)
c. The fact that God has never intended to prevent all pain in this life is consistent with the fact that God is perfect love and has perfect love for creatures.
Am I losing it or what?
On what basis would we believe that perfect love requires preventing all pain?
And if we can't say that perfect love requires preventing ALL pain, then how can we say that perfect love requires preventing any specific instance of pain?
And, finally, haven't we established that ALL theodicies can be reduced to "greater good" at some level? Hasn't Doc conceded this?
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