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Originally posted by JET

MephE,

I'm saying you can posit a omnipotent, omnibenevolent God (either with or without the Devil) and still have pain as long as you don't assume that omnibenevolence entails preventing all pain.

Make sense?

E

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Hey JET-Dude,

I completely agree. If we say God's benevolence demands that he prevent pain, then we have to be consistent and say that this means He must prevent ALL pain in ALL instances.

John

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Think of the other theodicies mentioned in SATPOE--soul-making, kenotic, etc. Doc basically agrees with them. He just thinks they're inadequate without also positing Satan's activity as "god of this world". I'm questioning that.

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Mephi: So, given what we are saying here, the actualization of this tragedy was an ACCEPTABLE RISK to God, given what God wanted to do, right?

Tom: Across the board, yes. Given a cross-centered approach to God, life, evil, and all, given the multiplicity of factors, etc., that’s where I am. In the end, this makes more sense of the evidence than saying God is caught by his own creation in the predicament of wanting to stop a tsunami but just flat out not have the muscle to do so.

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Originally posted by MephEternal

JET:

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Think of the other theodicies mentioned in SATPOE--soul-making, kenotic, etc. Doc basically agrees with them. He just thinks they're inadequate without also positing Satan's activity as "god of this world". I'm questioning that.

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See, THAT's the killer though. The only way to square all this with the biblical data is to posit what Doc posits...that there is a Satan having MAD control over Creation and it's processes.

There's NO other way to affirm the two big axioms of the Christian faith:

1) Death is ultimately the enemy of God

2) Death is a product of sin (Adamic sin in particular)

You can use all the other theodicies without positing a Satan...but they wouldn't line up well with the teachings of Paul. Without Satan being the "prince of matter", this is VERY hard to reconcile. Not to be all on Doc's jock or anything, but I really do believe that his answer in SATPOE is the MOST consistent and comprehensive theodicy that answers all the questions...AND is viable for evangelicalism.

I just can't buy it anymore. I can buy the existence of Satan and demons. I can't buy that they have been in CONTROL of most of Creation's processes for billions and billions of years...and that the death, decaying, carnivorousness of life is ALL INHERENTLY demonic. The very fundamental 2nd law of thermodynamics is demonic. The very notion of a "food chain" and "circle of life" is inherently demonic.

Sorry. No dice.

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Just havin' fun slidin' down the slippery slope.

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Ray: Also after Noah God promised never to flood the earth again. I fail to see Jesus in the NT doing anything violent to lost people.
Jesus IS Yahweh of the OT....the fullest picture of who God is (Hebrews...in the last days he spoke to us throught the prophets.....but now He has revealed His Son...dwelt in the flesh and lived among us)

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Originally posted by spenlake
But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged."

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Oh, but it's eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil to "judge ourselves," spen.

(Kidding--I completely agree with you that people today simply have a problem with the God's own self-revelation in Scripture if they insist that God doesn't ever execute people when He sees fit).

John

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Originally posted by MephEternal
Now you know evangelicals ain't gonna dig this, right?

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"For much of Western Christianity, the docrine of creation (a biblical term) has been eaten alive by the doctrine of the fall (not a biblical term).

. . .

"The God-affirmed goodness of creation, the beauty of creation, its priceless preciousness and meaning as God's own handiwork--these values are seldom heard. Instead more discouraging words are heard--about the ruin of creation via an "ontological fall," a concept that convieniently seems to degrade God's inherently valuable handiwork into man's bargain resources for profitable exploitation. It's far easier to put a price tag on a fallen creation than on a still-sacred one

Many of us have grown uneasy with this understanding of "the fall" (and with it, an exaggerated understanding of the doctrine of "original sin"). We are suspicious that it has become a kind of Western neo-Platonic invasive species that ravages the harmonious balance inherent in the enduring Jewish concept of creation as God's world. So we are looking to the Eastern Orthodox tradition and to emerging narrative theologies where creation is still seen as sacred, "good", "very good" ... and, in fact, ongoing." [my emphasis]

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Dang, Tom. Serious list. You too, Spen.

So...uh...what do you think about that?

Universalism rocks...right? It's the best thing going as a theodicy.

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Originally posted by might-be-don

JET,

Lining myself up with evangelicals is not very important to me, I'm still thinkin over Iconoclast's view of the devil.

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Filtering out the gods/demons worldview of the old timers leaves us with the One True God that has reconciled Himself with his creation through His Son.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Looks like TOM actually reached into this page and REMOVED my post of Piper's piece.

I posted it because I liked the first post at the top of page nine (by ) and thought that Piper's had more in common with it than with the long lists. Lists are a different approach to thinking -- quantitative versus qualitative -- anyways, and I wanted spenlake's to have something more in common with it....especially while I was reading it.

A participant has no place removing another participant's post.

Here's Piper's again. I, at least, am a slow reader and a slow thinker, and require the "help" of having it here.

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Standing as we are on the threshold of a new year, filled with hope for a brighter future for ourselves and for a world gripped by terror, inhumanity, war, and natural disaster, we are once again challenged to give thanks to God for all things, for His many blessings, and for the loving kindness He has bestowed upon us. Such disasters serve as a reminder that the world is indeed fallen, and that the tragedies which seem so remote could surely befall any one of us, at any time. And they also serve as a reminder that, as Christians, we cannot be indifferent to the suffering of those we are enjoined to call "brother" and "sister." Their sorrow is our sorrow. Their loss is our loss. Their lives, rooted in the Creator Himself, are as sacred as our own; as such, they cannot be considered to be of less worth than our own. While giving thanks to God for sparing us the pain and unimaginable grief so many have suffered, we are prompted to face the new year with the desire to become more compassionate, more merciful, more loving — in a word, more God-like — in order to reveal God's presence in a world which all too often fails or refuses to see it.

At times like this, we are also reminded to take a sober look at our own lives and our own future. Do we see the beginning of a new year as an occasion to pursue frivolous or meaningless resolutions, focusing exclusively on ourselves with little concern or compassion for others? Do we honor it as an occasion to recommit ourselves to discerning God's will for our lives in this world, so often filled with sorrow, and in the world to come? Do we welcome it as an opportunity to grow spiritually, to give thanks with every breath while striving to reveal in word and deed the hope that Our Lord offers to all who embrace and treasure it?

As we anticipate the new year with joy, let us remember in heartfelt prayer those who have suffered so much and who have lost everything, including hope. Let us strive to share the gifts with which we have been blessed so abundantly, sharing them with those who have so little. And let us recommit ourselves to offering thanks to God, in every place and at all times, while working diligently to become like Him, to partake of His divine nature, and to exalt Him as our only hope.

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We also raise our hearts and hands to God in the highest, and we fervently pray to Him to condone the sins of human kind; to send upon each and every afflicted soul His infinite mercy; to comfort the mourners for the loss of their relatives; to attend to those who were stricken; to heal the sick; to inspirit and encourage the philanthropists, so they will offer their help in abundance to all those who are in need.

May God accept the repentance of humankind and not allow any similar catastrophe from happening anywhere in the world. Amen.

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