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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > John Piper's Response to the Tsunami | Forum Quick Jump
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Hello POW,
Do you abide If you’re a guest in someone’s domain, and they ask you to please take your shoes off?
Peace,
Mark
I'm not a guest, I'm a participant. TGB when he's moderating is a servant.
Tom was in his rights to ask "what's the point?" and remark "I don't get it." So....
I came back here as a participant to answer his questions. And I have above.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Spark, I think that you and Tom should honor this:
quote:
Here's Piper's again. I, at least, am a slow reader and a slow thinker, and require the "help" of having it here.
I want to see this idea represented while I'm considering the others.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 5:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Spark, I think that you and Tom should honor this:
quote:
Here's Piper's again. I, at least, am a slow reader and a slow thinker, and require the "help" of having it here.
I want to see this idea represented while I'm considering the others.
Cool, I can relate. Have you considered opening a second browser window or washing your feet? Once a year bro, we wash each others feet, but in the meantime.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/6/2005 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Spark: Have you considered opening a second browser window...?
Tom: Yes. Thank you Mark. Since everybody knows I'm moderator now (for another two days! Yay!) I don't need to hide it. I was trying to keep the place tidy. POW's perfectly capable of openning a second browser window. Reposting lengthy posts is what we've often asked members to try to avoid doing. There's no point in it. So, POW, open a second browser. Or better yet, save copies of posts that you know you'll want to refer to. That's more respectful of our time and space than littering the site with needless reposts.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/6/2005 5:23 AM (GMT -6) | | I did for a second there Spark. Sorry. A pox upon me!
I wanted to register my feelings (with Jeff) about Mephi's suggestion that universalism solves it all. If we opt for universalism because it solves theodicy, then aren't we essentially undermining the 'grace' of salvation by viewing salvation as something God really "owes" suffering people for all the gratuitous suffering they've experienced. Don't have time to develop this thought, but I hope it's clear.
Would it help if I reposted Piper's article here? Perhaps we could repost it on EACH new page of this thread so PoW wouldn't have to click one extra button to view it.
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
I did for a second there Spark. Sorry. A pox upon me!
I wanted to register my feelings (with Jeff) about Mephi's suggestion that universalism solves it all. If we opt for universalism because it solves theodicy, then aren't we essentially undermining the 'grace' of salvation by viewing salvation as something God really "owes" suffering people for all the gratuitous suffering they've experienced.
Personally I don’t find universalism helpful unless we are talking the possible fate of children. Scripture is very clear that the time to act is now. Granted, God can change his mind but it is not up to us to think for him. In the words of a famous dog, “DEAD MEN DON”T REPENT”!
Hmm... or was it the famous words of Don Corleone?  | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2005 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
So, POW, open a second browser.
1. I put a link to page one of this thread on that post.
2. It was not a long quote from somewhere else. It was the thesis-post of this thread. That's a major difference.
3. And since the thread is "John Piper's Response to the Tsunami" (denoting HIS actions, for which he's responsible before God) and not "The content of John P's sermon" (which could be read to be an academic baloon, or thoughts in progress) we OWE it to Dr. Piper to not misrepresent him! (That would break one of the Ten Commandments: false witness.)
Yahweh Carleone post, saying "piper's article can be summed up simply: There was a hit, now youse guys clean up the bodies." does denote the article. But I don't like the feel -- and suspect that God does not either.
False witness. (Show me wrong.)
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2005 5:58 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/6/2005 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | PoW-
Dude you are waaaaay too intense about this. Piper's thread is easily available. We won't wrench him out of context if his words aren't dangling in front of us on every page.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2005 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | As per: quote:
Spark, 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 2.
Here is the PRAYER part and the THEOLOGY-THROUGH-ACTION part of John Piper's sermon that I think is really worth a long, thoughtful meditation:
quote:
4. The heart that Christ gives to his people feels compassion for those who suffer, no matter what their faith.
When the Bible says, “Weep with those who weep” (Romans 12:15), it does not add, “unless God caused the weeping.” Job’s comforters would have done better to weep with Job than talk so much. That does not change when we discover that Job’s suffering was ultimately from God. No, it is right to weep with those who suffer. Pain is pain, no matter who causes it. We are all sinners. Empathy flows not from the causes of pain, but the company of pain. And we are all in it together.
Finally, Christ calls us to show mercy to those who suffer, even if they do not deserve it.
That is the meaning of mercy—undeserved help. “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you” (Luke 6:27). Therefore, pray earnestly for Scott Purser and his team as they investigate the best way that the Global Diaconate can mercifully respond with the love of Christ to the calamity around the Indian Ocean.
In the merciful hands of Almighty God,
Pastor John
I have been pondering how we might consider the legacy that the Jesuits left us, and temper it somewhat. We don't have to understand everything, as everything is not in OUR hands. But how we love God and love our neighbor is what IS PLACED IN OUR HANDS. As Piper says, NOT deterministically, or robotically, BUT for our response and faithfulness as his anointed children.
- PoW
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/6/2005 6:07 AM (GMT -6) | | PoW-
Can you make the font size of Piper's words a little larger? I don't wanna miss them. 
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2005 6:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
PoW- Dude you are waaaaay too intense about this.
R e l a x Tom. (really)
I noted the reason for wanting Piper's quote on THAT page, for THAT moment. (Its merely linked now.) It had NOTHING to do with your posts, which I was NOT presuming to be (as you said) "wrench<ed>...out of context if his words."
YOU posted some interesting examples of catastrophies. I read them, and nodded.
But I am also interested in reading what might be posted by others who haven't posted here yet!
Politely,
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2005 6:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
PoW-
Can you make the font size of Piper's words a little larger? I don't wanna miss them.
Tom
1. THIS above (quoted)I would consider clutter.
2. Also, its obviously not Tom acting as a servant-leader (moderator) as his words are not kind -- they are abrasive, and derogatory in a synical way. I don't like them, enjoy them, or invite them.
3. On MY screen they ALL fit within the monitor.
4. They are the size post that JEE/John makes most of his posts in (#3)
5. They capture the THESIS of what I've been outside shoveling snow and thinking about (Schools are closed in Chicago.)
6. Were Tom to ask me to size-down the font, in a polite and courteous way, I would. But I would also need something proving his sincerety, as it really does seem that the space is not the issue--due to his own.
7. Tom, you remove yours, and I'll size mine down to #1. No probelem with that.
Very sincerely,
NOW, I've invited some other people to respond to the PASTORAL dimension of Piper's and the other two from page nine. http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3978&whichpage=9 And I'd like to read what THEY have to say.
(Tom, you are welcomed to comment on the pastoral aspect too!  )
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ataraxia
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 1/6/2005 6:23 AM (GMT -6) | | The font size comment was a joke. A j-o-k-e, PoW.
But I've had enough.
Poof. Be gone.
Tom/ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | | Piper's words are a prime example of why Calvinism will never take hold with the vast majority of people. A God of love? Please...people cannot trust someone who they don't truly believe has their best interests at heart. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/6/2005 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | | Spen: I'm not sure what your point is. Of course, God's interest in a person is qualified. But the fact remains what Piper is preaching is God killed those people. You are not going to get a father to trust in a God who says out of one side of his mouth that he loves him and from the other side he killed his son. Again, you are not going to get the average person (and Herod was not average, nor Ananias, both of whom rebelled against God) to believe in a God who does not have their best interests at heart. And you are not going to get a person to believe God loves them and, at the same time, he kills their children. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 12:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Spen: I'm not sure what your point is. Of course, God's interest in a person is qualified. But the fact remains what Piper is preaching is God killed those people. You are not going to get a father to trust in a God who says out of one side of his mouth that he loves him and from the other side he killed his son. Again, you are not going to get the average person (and Herod was not average, nor Ananias, both of whom rebelled against God) to believe in a God who does not have their best interests at heart. And you are not going to get a person to believe God loves them and, at the same time, he kills their children.
Feelin,
My job is not to "plead and cajole and market God." My job is to offer His gospel boldly in the purest way I know how. It is for each of these people themselves (a wonderful OV concept) to choose to accept this message or to rebel against it and reject it. I am not there to FORCE them to choose it. I am there to preach the message and it is up to them to repent. Herod didn't repent. The fault wasn't Jesus'. Those that refuse to repent at the message of the gospel, the fault is their own.
God DOES kill children. He killed the children of the flood. He took glory in killing the firstborn child of every parent in Egypt. He killed the children of Canaan. He knew of beforehand and allowed the deaths of all the children of Bethlehm, only saving Jesus. He could have sent dreams to all the parents, but He didn't. Scripturally, His decree of death is the basis for the death of every child that has ever died. This is besides the point. The message is that even though we all deserve death, like those who died in the tsunami, He allows us to live that we may hear and repent. I am not saying that those who died were those who merited it most. God often shows mercy on those that merit death most. Why them and not me? I don't know but I am grateful.
This is NOT about OV. There is nothing in this post that forces an OVer to deny their belief in free will. This post does ask people to repent of a defective belief concerning God and one that ultimately attacks His precious gospel.
Spen Lake
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timlings
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 1/6/2005 2:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Er, hi there people
Mr Roger Forster (God's Strategy in Human History) gave a preach on the problem of evil and the Tsunami last Sunday, and it was ace. So here, borrowing from him, are some ideas:
It all kinda boils down to the issue of, is 'God is love' better than 'God is power'? Will God wooing the universe along actually win against just using brute force?
God's given Satan, and all his angels, and all God's angels, and all 6 billion people in the world a free-will. That's a lot of conflicting wills to deal with.
Now he's also given out some of his power along with that. God is the 'all-powerful', but he's given the power over death to Satan, the power over the earth to man etc. And, even when we abuse that power, he doesn't take it back (well, not straight away anyway). Satan has ended up with the kingdoms of the earth too, due to humans giving it to him because of their sin. And so Satan goes around causing all kind of destruction, including 150K+ killing tsunamis.
[btw, there is an element of human sin in why it was so bad. Why is there still poverty around, meaning people live in poorly built structures that get easily washed away? Why isn't wealth shared out to stop things like that? And why wasn't a warning system put in? And why didn't India make use of the hour's notice it had about the wave? If we really did follow God, then a lot of natural evils wouldn't really be so evil. Anyway....]
God could have stopped Satan from setting off that earthquake. He is big enough. But God has also set up the universe with rules, and so can't just sweep his arm across the chess board and declare "I've won!" He's got to be just and good. Because if God had destroyed Satan, God would have stopped being good (as Satan would have claimed that all those wicked people in their sin had given him permission to destroy them).
I mean look at Job. He had a very rough ride. God could have stopped Satan, but didn't. In fact, it even look like God isn't even trying to stop Satan! That is because the question at stake was, does Job really love God? Does he trust in God's goodness and love, even when things go badly? When we chose to love God, God works for good in the situation, as "in all things, God works for the good of those who love him" (Romans 8...?). So it's when we trust in God and his goodness in the face of evil that we overcome the enemy. Jesus did on the cross, and so can we too.
So, basically I'm saying that God didn't stop Satan doing what he did because there was a greater importance - a universe where love can exist at all, and where love wins over brute force. God could have stopped the Holocaust, but didn't (although Hitler and others were stopped in the end). Satan will get stopped in the end, but in the meantime we need to focus on doing what Jesus did and does - helping those who are suffering.
Just a few ha'penny worths.
Love
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 3:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by timlings
Er, hi there people
Mr Roger Forster (God's Strategy in Human History) gave a preach on the problem of evil and the Tsunami last Sunday, and it was ace.
Hello Tim,
do you have a link to Mr. Forster's sermon? I only found a book review on "God's Strategy in Human History" but would like to hear/read his sermon.
www.newtestamentpattern.net/bookreviews/godsstrategyinhumanhistory.htm
Thanks,
Mark
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