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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > John Piper's Response to the Tsunami | Forum Quick Jump
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | I think it's important to note that according to Scripture (and according to Jesus himself), not everybody is a child of God.
1 John 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness--the one who does not love his fellow Christian--is not of God.
2 Cor. 6:17 Therefore "come out from their midst, and be separate," says the Lord, "and touch no unclean thing, and I will welcome you, 6:18 and I will be a father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters," says the All-Powerful Lord.
John 8:44 You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. (From the NET Bible).
So I don't see how the question of trust in God is even an issue here; if we are really God's children, He has promised he will never leave us nor forsake us and that he will be with us always. He has never given such promises to the children of the Devil.
That said, I don't see how we can have enough information, apart from a special revelation of God, to say one way or the other that the tsunami was a direct judgment of God upon people. However, to say that it HAD to be Satan who did it is even more preposterous. Where does the Bible ever say Satan has the ability to cause such things? And even if the Devil did have that kind of power, don't you think he'd have destroyed all mankind a long time ago?
John
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
That said, I don't see how we can have enough information, apart from a special revelation of God, to say one way or the other that the tsunami was a direct judgment of God upon people. However, to say that it HAD to be Satan who did it is even more preposterous. Where does the Bible ever say Satan has the ability to cause such things? And even if the Devil did have that kind of power, don't you think he'd have destroyed all mankind a long time ago?
Please check out Mr. Boyd's sermon, John. I will look forward to reading your comments.
http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2005/2005-01-02_Boyd_Being-the-Kingdom-in-a-Groaning-Creation.mp3
Scriptures and Quotations:
http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2005/2005-01-02_Boyd_Being-the-Kingdom-in-a-Groaning-Creation.pdf
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timlings
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Mark
Visit http://www.ichthus.org.uk for Ichthus' website. They don't do online downloads, but you could ring them up and ask for a copy of the tape to be posted to ya! [sorry, us Brits aren't as high tech on this side of the pond!]
Love
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:14 PM (GMT -6) | | John
quote:
However, to say that it HAD to be Satan who did it is even more preposterous. Where does the Bible ever say Satan has the ability to cause such things? And even if the Devil did have that kind of power, don't you think he'd have destroyed all mankind a long time ago?
If you look at Job, Satan incites God against Job. However, God then gives Satan permission to do stuff to Job. (Note that God is never the one who does the stuff to him) Job then suffers from the 'fire of God' falling on his sons, a huge wind blowing etc. Who caused these? It wasn't God (he'd given Job into Satan's hands), it wasn't man (we can't make natural disasters happen), leaving Satan as the only other agent here.
Well, Satan could have destroyed all mankind. But that's not what he's aiming for - he wants people to follow him, and killing them off may not actually be a good plan (see the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis).
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
This isn't the real thrust of my posts. But I see in an event like the tsunami that of the multitudes on the beach, some were killed (even babies) and some were spared. Those that were killed were not the most wicked and those that were spared were not the most righteous. Those that died didn't CHOOSE to die and those that lived didn't necessarily live because of their chioce (although because this is only an imperfect illustration some obviously tried harder to live than others).
Yes, LVW is the thrust of the issue if we accept that angelic beings have freewill that's opposed to the will of God. LFW is of utmost importance if we find the fall of creation and entropy landing on the shoulders of Adam’s rebellious choice.
quote:
The issue is that the flood decided who would live or not and we serve a God that even the wind and the waves obey Him. I believe that ultimately God chose who lived or died.
Does one punish a dog for being obedient? Why would Satan be obedient to God by bringing death, are they both living in double bungalows? I believe it is Satan’s natural state to bring death, it’s the very presences of God that calms the storms, brings stability and order to the world. Ultimately God gets the last word by bringing good out of everything, even death.
quote:
I fid a similar thing happening in the response of people when presented with the gospel. Some live and some die. I don't think that even the most adrent OVer would claim that if the gospel was presented EXACTLY right, and the person saw and understood, they would ALL choose life.
Hmm… check out Mephi’s dream on Universalism.
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Some still choose damnation. Why? I chalk it up to the Divine.
That’s a cold view of hell.
quote:
Perhaps the OV chalks it up to stupidity, but I don;t see being stupid as a sin (thankfully for me). Even people of marginal intelligence or defective mental capacities can choose the gospel while the "wise" are unable though they understand its message.
v\
You’re throwing the word “wise” around rather loosely, Spen. quote:
Truthfully, if the true gospel is preached and not a defective wrathless God, regardless of whether one believes in free will or "mystery" there will be some who will respond in faith and repent. I am not offended by your clinging to your belief in the power of free will.
I find very little "power" in LFW outside the power to love and the choice to do otherwise.
quote:
I do find the portrayal of God as one who will not kill babies as un-scriptural, defective, and ultimately an attack on the gospel. This presents:
- a truncated God
- who offers a truncated gospel
- with truncated power for salvation and sanctification
This is far from the God of the scriptures and His own revelation and Good News of salvation that we are to obediently offer to all freely and without charge.
Why can’t you leave the children out of it?
If there is no $$ charge then there is a heck of death tax. 
Shalom,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Why can’t you leave the children out of it?
Sparky,
God Himself "boasted" is some sense of killing all the first born of Egypt. If you confess or preach a God that doesn't kill, then you have a different God from the one of the Bible and you have a different gospel than the one Paul preached, a defective and weak gospel. God says that He does what ever He pleases in heaven and on earth. If it pleases Him to strike down the firstborn, they He is righteous and strikes them down and none can stay His hand. BTW, as far as I know animals don't sin but God struck them down as well, because it pleased Him to strike them down.
‘For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the LORD.
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,
“For all the firstborn are Mine; on the day that I struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, I sanctified to Myself all the firstborn in Israel, from man to beast. They shall be Mine; I am the LORD.”
He sent upon them His burning anger,
Fury and indignation and trouble,
A band of destroying angels.
He leveled a path for His anger;
He did not spare their soul from death,
But gave over their life to the plague,
And smote all the firstborn in Egypt,
The first issue of their virility in the tents of Ham.
But He led forth His own people like sheep
And guided them in the wilderness like a flock;
He led them safely, so that they did not fear;
But the sea engulfed their enemies.
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does,
In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
Who makes lightnings for the rain,
Who brings forth the wind from His treasuries.
He smote the firstborn of Egypt,
Both of man and beast.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | I suppose next you will be arguing that God ordains abortions.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:04 AM (GMT -6) | | The question is not if God can kill babies or if he has killed babies in the past. The question: Is God to blame for the thousands of babies killed in the tsunami?
I think you should trade the new book you won for this one:
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
The question is not if God can kill babies or if he has killed babies in the past. The question, Is God to blame for the thousands of babies killed in the tsunami?
I think you should trade the new book you won in for this one:
I am not blaming God. I am grateful that He has allowed us to live. I am grateful for all those that survived the tsunami. I am grateful that I was not aborted. And, most of all, I am grateful that God placed His love upon me and offered me eternal life as a gift, even though it cost Him the life of His own Son.
Thank you. I have no further questions your Honor.
You can step down, spen.
I would like to call John Piper to the stand please.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The whole concept of blame is defective when we apply it to God.
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does,
In heaven and in earth.
By definition, what God does is good and who are we to question Him and affix blame to His actions. This is the lesson of Job. His ways are past knowing. Gratefully, He has revealed some of who He is and called us with love that is found in the death of His Son. In the death of His Son He has promised us that we will find shelter from His terrible wrath and all who persevere there will inherit eternal life.
There is no room to blame God, He is altogether above it. It is the king in revelation who shake their fists at God and refuse to repent when the plagues of God come upon them. They and their kin are the ones who blame God.
I find blame to be the antithesis of accountability.
Accountability will be exposed when you unwrap LFW.
Square one dude.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
In this posting I was only requiring you to believe that God kills babies when it pleases His to do so.
So now it "pleases" Him to kill babies?
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/7/2005 2:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
DID IT PLEASE GOD TO KILL HIS OWN SON? We cannot and should not have a mentality that little "innocent" babies in anyway deserve life.
So, God so loved the world that he TOOK his son’s life? Hmm... excuse me but I always thought Jesus voluntarily gave his life. 
I don't think there were any little babies’ hands waving in the air volunteering to die. On the contrary, I would believe those little helpless hands were waving and grasping for help.
quote:
Originally posted by borg
We cannot foget that the very breath we breathe is from and of God. It is pure grace.
Of course, Borg. Who says otherwise?
Peace,
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 1/7/2005 2:50 PM (GMT -6) | |
I changed my mind, here you go POW,
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
But no more than this, maybe
I will have some more Pudding please 
Imagination projects unreal images out of the mind and seeks to attach reality to them. Faith creates nothing; it simply reckons upon that which is already there. | | Back to Top | | |
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