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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/20/2003 11:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | So what's the name of the movie Twin Brother?
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/21/2003 7:52 PM (GMT -6) | | | I rented "Eight Legged Freaks," and watched it with my kids. Wonderfully foolish. My kids esprecially liked when the boyfriend wouldn't back off so the girl shocked him and he wet his pants and when the giant spiders giggled. | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 9/22/2003 2:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Saw it last night...
The soundtrack was great. It sounded like some of the music might have actually been recorded in the church. A bit of a technical observation, it actually sounded like the microphone being used in the church was the one the recording was done with. Usually the sound is done in a studio and lip-synched to. The sound of the Hammond organ was right on, that it how that organ is supposed to sound.
Best church service I've been to in months. I haven't seen this kind of enthusiasm since I was in the Glide Methodist Church in San Francisco. They really know how to rock the joint with unbridled joy. Gays do have a church that they can feel free in worship.
peace, don | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/23/2003 7:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
I'd never had dreamed Hollywood could hit the bull's eye of what the kingdom -- and warfare against it -- is all about. But this movie does it. I saw it last night and have had the beauty of the kingdom in my mind all day because I saw it last night.
Plus, the quirky humor is incredible. And the music -- well, this is one MUST GET sound track.
Yes, the plot is both hopelessly unrealistic and utterly predictable... but the movie doesn't attempt to draw us in on that level. it's about mood, images, dreams, realness... the beauty of acceptance and honesty, and the ugliness of religious judgment.
SEE IT.
Doc
Yeah, but does the movie show that personal change is the result of the Church's nonjudgemental acceptance? By that I mean does the questionable character played by Beyonce Knowles learn to become a more Godly woman once the Church does accept her? I mean it's real easy for the devil to use a movie like that to convince people that certain lifestyles and ways of acting or dressing are okay, just because the Church is shown to be nonjudgemental towards a person. In real life, a woman like that would learn from the Holy Spirit that she shouldn't keep acting inappropriately sometime AFTER the Church loves her unconditionally. But, movies like this tend to leave that aspect out.
I'm saying here that yes - no matter what a person is like, the Church should love them unconditionally and welcome them into the fold. But, because of that and the work of the Holy Spirit, the person would eventually realize that they should change certain things about themselves. If a movie only shows the Church welcoming people in, but not the final effect of that in the person's life, it's deceiving. It's not okay to just remain in sin even after one is unconditionally accepted. So, a movie needs to portray that. If it doesn't, it's a slippery slope.
It would be real easy for young girls to look at that and say to themselves, "Oh, I can be a Christian and still act like I'm a sex object," because the change in the person's heart as a result of the Church's unconditional love towards them wasn't portrayed in the film.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/23/2003 8:45 AM (GMT -6) | | | So should the church welcome someone in unconditionally into the fold if they talk too loud in the service, so others cannot hear, or they walk into the service naked, or if they are a child molster? Should the church accept child molsters unconditionally, given that unconditionally means without conditions on anything, including how they behave? Remember unconditionally means without condition, which means they do not have to change any type of lifestyle at all. | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 9/23/2003 9:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmm...
Seems to me that both the main characters are deeply changed by their encounter with the church. We see Cuba's character deciding to do the right thing and returning to the church even though he had it 'made' in his new position. The fact they decide to get married, and they are still active in church after the baby is born shows further ongoing change.
peace, don | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/23/2003 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
So should the church welcome someone in unconditionally into the fold if they talk too loud in the service, so others cannot hear, or they walk into the service naked, or if they are a child molster? Should the church accept child molsters unconditionally, given that unconditionally means without conditions on anything, including how they behave? Remember unconditionally means without condition, which means they do not have to change any type of lifestyle at all.
Accepting a person as they are is what God does, so we as the Church can do no less. Child molesters and sexual predators, in general, are the ones I'd have the most trouble with welcoming, too, but if the only way they can ever change is by the power of The Holy Spirit, we need to help them to accept Jesus in order for that to happen. Or else they won't be able to change and we'll be the ones at fault for it.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/23/2003 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Of course, Tigress, you are evading the issue. God judges those who will not repent of their sins. Are we called to judge as well? In a sense, yes, but to say that God would accept a child molster unconditionally into his kingdom, without any regard for a change of behavior is foolishness. God's love is not unconditional in such a sense and neither should ours be. We should hold out love to others, but we should also hold out help for them to change and accountability for that change. We should NOT be co-dependant allowers, who turn a blind eye to sinful behavior.
And you didn't answer the basis questions I asked: would you practically... | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/23/2003 12:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
Of course, Tigress, you are evading the issue. God judges those who will not repent of their sins. Are we called to judge as well? In a sense, yes, but to say that God would accept a child molster unconditionally into his kingdom, without any regard for a change of behavior is foolishness. God's love is not unconditional in such a sense and neither should ours be. We should hold out love to others, but we should also hold out help for them to change and accountability for that change. We should NOT be co-dependant allowers, who turn a blind eye to sinful behavior.
And you didn't answer the basis questions I asked: would you practically...
Well, at the beginning when the sex offender first visits the church, we wouldn't know if he's truly repentant or not, now would we? I mean, unless I'm mistaken, you're not God, Honorman, so don't presume to know the hearts of others. We simply can't know if he's trustworthy or not, so we can't be all unwelcoming towards him. Granted some sex offenders might come to a church to prey on women and children and so the church might have to make a special effort to keep an eye on any man that we know is a sex offender and on his potential prey that we want to protect. Believe me, I think we have to do everything we can to protect women and children from sexual offenders, so we should. But, the men of the church should do all they can to surround a man who struggled with being a sex offender and who claims to want salvation from it with powerful love, prayer and fellowship. I suppose in a situation where the church knows the guy's history, they'd have to take extreme precautions while still trying to lead him to Christ. I don't think God would object to that. And the Holy Spirit would probably work on the guy's heart to help him understand our actions towards him. But there does have to be a point when he either passes or fails the test of trust. Once we're sure that he has been reborn and is no longer controlled by his sexual sins, we need to be slightly less guarded and stop treating him like he has a contagious disease.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 9/23/2003 5:46 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't think many people who go to bed healthy and happy and wake up one morning and say, "heh, I think I'll get my jollies off of abusing little boys." There's a history here, that only God knows. And its probably gruesome.
So of course we have compassion, total unconditional over joyed acceptance of pedophiles -- and even religious people -- even before they move an inch in God's direction, for we are sinners as much as they. And, for their sake, and for our kids, we set up parameters that keep both safe. But all the while we are screaming the scream of Calvary: it was for you.
Such liberal, lovey dove, wishy washy, compromising, non-religious, BS, right?
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/23/2003 7:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Thats right, Doctor Boyd, we set up parameters, which means we do not have unconditional love.
And that is my point: there is no such thing as unconditional love. And nor should there be...too many people here feel that anything less than "unconditional" love is truly not loving. Yet there is no such thing, once we get to the practically of how we love and live within a sinful world. Even God's love has strings attached. So I wish people would get off using the term. It makes no sense, because all love has some kind of condition if people truly love another person.
Requireing people to act in a way that is best for them is the ultimate in love, not judgmental. That is what people on this website are truly missing. When I punish my child for lying, it is not because I want to control his behavior or keep him out of trouble (though are positive asides) but because lying is not what is best for him as an individual.
We should extend love for those who have sinned and we should not be judgmental towards them. But we should remind them that sinful behavior is something that keeps them not only from God, but also from being the person they were meant to be. The height of love drives us to speak the truth in love, not be silent in the face of behavior that kills.
Yes, Doctor Boyd, Calvary was for them. But Jesus also turned away the rich man who WANTED to come to him. Why? Because he needed to change something in his life that he was holding onto.
Tigress, I am not saying we should not accept those who struggle. Of course we should. My point is that all relationships have strings attached. For instance, we would accept a struggling child molester into the church. But we would not let him/her near children. Hence another "string" to the relationship. Therefore such a relationship is not "unconditional."
Not BS, Doctor Boyd, simply impractical clueless advice from someone who probably has not experienced such first hand in his family as some of us have. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/24/2003 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
Thats right, Doctor Boyd, we set up parameters, which means we do not have unconditional love.
And that is my point: there is no such thing as unconditional love. And nor should there be...too many people here feel that anything less than "unconditional" love is truly not loving. Yet there is no such thing, once we get to the practically of how we love and live within a sinful world. Even God's love has strings attached. So I wish people would get off using the term. It makes no sense, because all love has some kind of condition if people truly love another person.
Requireing people to act in a way that is best for them is the ultimate in love, not judgmental. That is what people on this website are truly missing. When I punish my child for lying, it is not because I want to control his behavior or keep him out of trouble (though are positive asides) but because lying is not what is best for him as an individual.
We should extend love for those who have sinned and we should not be judgmental towards them. But we should remind them that sinful behavior is something that keeps them not only from God, but also from being the person they were meant to be. The height of love drives us to speak the truth in love, not be silent in the face of behavior that kills.
Yes, Doctor Boyd, Calvary was for them. But Jesus also turned away the rich man who WANTED to come to him. Why? Because he needed to change something in his life that he was holding onto.
Tigress, I am not saying we should not accept those who struggle. Of course we should. My point is that all relationships have strings attached. For instance, we would accept a struggling child molester into the church. But we would not let him/her near children. Hence another "string" to the relationship. Therefore such a relationship is not "unconditional."
Not BS, Doctor Boyd, simply impractical clueless advice from someone who probably has not experienced such first hand in his family as some of us have.
Honorman,
I think you and I are in agreement that we should show Christ's love toward pedaphiles just as we would an innocent child, but we just differ in our definition of unconditional love. The message of the Cross is salvation by faith alone, but it's also that ongoing sinful behavior gets between a person's relationship with God. That relationship with God is what empowers the person to change. So yes, we must preach to them that their sinful actions must stop. But, while doing this, we must still be clear that we're open to accepting them into the fold. We don't want to preach at them to change before they can come in, because they can't change on their own. And we have to preach the necessity of the change in a gentle and loving enough way so as to not push them away from the only One who can help them change. It's definitely a delicate balance.
And let me confess...I'd be the first person in line to torture an unrepentant sex offender if I thought God would have no problem with that - but of course we know He would. So, for me to say that we must love them is really difficult for me. Of course, an unrepentant sex offender probably wouldn't be interested in joining the Church and accepting Jesus anyway. It would only be the repentant ones. They're much easier to love and forgive.
Here's a related question: Does God expect us to forgive people who aren't repentant?
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/24/2003 6:12 AM (GMT -6) | | I think God expects us be open to forgiving the person by not holding the act over their head. But I do not believe we can truly forgive a person who does not ask for and want forgivness. Nor do I believe we should forget the act, particularly if the person involved shows a pattern of committing such an act. We are not called to be naive, but rather wise.
When Jesus asked the father to "forgive them, for they know not what they do," what was Jesus asking? Did the Father forgive people who were unrepentant? I believe Jesus was asking the Father not to judge them, but to remain open to forgivness, if they asked for it. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 9/27/2003 7:58 AM (GMT -6) | | honorman: Requireing people to act in a way that is best for them is the ultimate in love, not judgmental. That is what people on this website are truly missing. When I punish my child for lying, it is not because I want to control his behavior or keep him out of trouble (though are positive asides) but because lying is not what is best for him as an individual.
Doc: But is your love for your child conditioned upon their not lying? If unconditional love does not exist, what are the conditions upon which you would NOT love your child?
My conviction, honorman, is that it’s the unconditional love UP FRONT that powerfully leads us to become different from what we are. And I thought this was one of the most beautiful aspects of Fighting Temptations. The director, and the lead singer (Beyonce), the singers, and especially the criminals were changed (watch them closely in their Gospel competition song "He Still Loves Me"). NONE of these folks would have been worshipping in the choir, going to church, falling to their knees in repentance (see the final song), testifying of God’s greatness – if the director hadn’t lowered the bar to "whosever will" (announcer: "even atheists are welcomed"). This is a story of a band of losers being transformed into a band of champions for the kingdom by the outrageous love that embraces us AS IS – just like you do your children.
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/27/2003 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Doctor Boyd: ALL acts condition each of us in SOME way. Would you love your wife the same way if she decided she hated you, never wanted to see you again, walked out on you, etc? I believe it is God's love that allows us to accept those who sin into our lives, and that love starts with a small amount of conditions (not unlike a baby). But as people live and grow around us, that love expects behavior to change and act loving as well. None of us stays in relationship with others who do not love. It is impossible.
Doctor Boyd: the love you are talking about is not a relational love, but a completely one sided one. One, as I said before, not unlike a parent to a helpless child. While it may be one to start in it certainly is not one God would have us exist in.
Love cannot exist in a unconditional love as relationship.
DLW, precisely. Even with love there are rules... | | Back to Top | | |
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