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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Doc's 1/2/04 Sermon | Forum Quick Jump
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 1/6/2005 7:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Might it be the “fear of death” ... which is the “enemy” Paul has in mind, so that it’s not physical mortality in and of itself which is the enemy but physical morality faced (and feared) by people who are separated from God which is to be overcome?
I like this. Brian McClaren makes this point eloquently in "A New Kind of Christian", pp. 86-88 (wherein he concludes that "death can in fact be beautiful in its time"). However, you'd agree that's not what Paul is saying in Rom. 5, for example. What would/could/might you do with Paul's understanding of death itself resulting directly from Adamic sin?
quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal:two axioms:
1) Death is the enemy of God
2) Death came through sin (in particular, Adam's sin)
While this may be central for some Christians, isn't it true that the "center" of Christianity is in fact located elsewhere for many other folks?
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 1/6/2005 7:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JET
What would/could/might you do with Paul's understanding of death itself resulting directly from Adamic sin?
What about you, JEE? | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/6/2005 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | CJF (in response to YC's "a bunch of pap"): Now I see why people seeking sincere discussion get fed up with this board.
Tom: I see your point, CJF. Yahweh Careleone (aka Laika I'm guessing), you can be a bit rough in responding to people. If you were just answering CJF's question, then how does calling his comments "a bunch of pap" answer his question? I don't suppose it does. So it's just hurtful.
CJF, on the new site I hope members will not be able to multiply aliases. While there can be some justification for an extra secret I.D. sometimes, multiplying aliases is usually not constructive. If we're limited to ONE I.D. we have to live with all the consequences of what we do as that person.
I'm sorry you were hurt. I think your question is a good one...
...but Yah. Carleone has a point! If you grant entropy is a God-thing, that he authored it into creation, then WE are subject to entropy, which is essentially all physical death is--our bodies eventually giving way to entropy. Granted, maybe we should have been living 800 years before entropy eventuated our deaths, but it would eventually happen.
Yahweh Carleone: Your bones growing brittle was part of God's original design? What good are brittle bones?
Tom: In calling entropy a part of God's "original design" I (I'm just floating the idea out there, not defending it right now) don't mean to say entropy is what God intended creation's eventual, or eternal, state to be. I only mean it might have been creation's beginning state, something God intended for a probabtionary period during which time creation would be led to its final perfection by humanity. Paul already links creation's perfection to our perfection. Again, I'm not arguing it. Just floating ideas out there.
Tom
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/6/2005 9:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Ooops. Sorry to miss that point. I saw his quote and assumed it was you. See what happens when you try to post while packing to travel?
Don't worry about the moderator on the next site. Won't be ME! Of course, I wasn't moderating just then. It was ME! Didn't have my official moderator's hat on.
Take care all,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/6/2005 9:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
CJF, on the new site I hope members will not be able to multiply aliases. While there can be some justification for an extra secret I.D. sometimes, multiplying aliases is usually not constructive. If we're limited to ONE I.D. we have to live with all the consequences of what we do as that person.
Thanks for your response, Tom. I appreciate it. I agree with your idea and hope we can find an effective way to implement it.
quote:
Originally posted by TGB
...but Yah. Carleone has a point! If you grant entropy is a God-thing, that he authored it into creation, then WE are subject to entropy, which is essentially all physical death is--our bodies eventually giving way to entropy. Granted, maybe we should have been living 800 years before entropy eventuated our deaths, but it would eventually happen.
Hmmm... apparently I really wasn't clear in my original post, since both you and Carleone seemed to have missed my main point. So I apologize.
I suggest that entropy in itself is not incompatible with a good creation. Without entropy, there would be no transfer of energy... the sun couldn't warm the earth, plants couldn't grow, etc.
So I was floating the idea that yes, entropy existed, but God had provided the antidote so-to-speak for humans such that the biological effects would be periodically healed, thus providing optimum health indefinitely. So both no brittle bones and yet entropy was in effect. I don't think I contradicted myself here.
gently, Corey | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by CJF
So I was floating the idea that yes, entropy existed, but God had provided the antidote so-to-speak for humans such that the biological effects would be periodically healed, thus providing optimum health indefinitely.
Yes, God has already provided an antidote to the entropy of this world, his name is Jesus Christ. This second Adam is the True Image of God. It is His will to restore earth as it was meant in Heaven. This process was started on the Cross and will be completely reveled in the second coming of Christ our Lord.
Shalom,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by CJF
So I was floating the idea that yes, entropy existed, but God had provided the antidote so-to-speak for humans such that the biological effects would be periodically healed, thus providing optimum health indefinitely.
Yes, God has already provided an antidote to the entropy of this world, his name is Jesus Christ. This second Adam is the True Image of God. It is His will to restore earth as it was meant in Heaven. This process was started on the Cross and will be completely reveled in the second coming of Christ our Lord.
Shalom,
Mark
Amen!
It is called a glorified body that will never die. Futhermore, it seems that this glorified body exists IN SPITE OF entropy because we are told that the current heavens and earth will wear out like a garment but there will be a new heavens and earth created to take their place. I understand things to mean that we have our glorified bodies before the new heavens/earth.
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD,
But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Spen Lake
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/6/2005 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey: I suggest that entropy in itself is not incompatible with a good creation. Without entropy, there would be no transfer of energy... the sun couldn't warm the earth, plants couldn't grow, etc.
Tom: Good point. This is what I was attempting to suggest as well. Entropy makes possible some things we don't normally think of as the result of sin and the Fall.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by CJF
So I was floating the idea that yes, entropy existed, but God had provided the antidote so-to-speak for humans such that the biological effects would be periodically healed, thus providing optimum health indefinitely.
Yes, God has already provided an antidote to the entropy of this world, his name is Jesus Christ. This second Adam is the True Image of God. It is His will to restore earth as it was meant in Heaven. This process was started on the Cross and will be completely reveled in the second coming of Christ our Lord.
Shalom,
Mark
Amen!
It is called a glorified body that will never die. Futhermore, it seems that this glorified body exists IN SPITE OF entropy because we are told that the current heavens and earth will wear out like a garment but there will be a new heavens and earth created to take their place. I understand things to mean that we have our glorified bodies before the new heavens/earth.
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD,
But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Spen,
I would just like to say thanks for all of your contributions here on this board as we draw closer to its end. We have had our differences in the past, but hey that is what makes life interesting. You have been a real trooper here on this board and a true disciple of Christ.
Thinking back on all the things we have ever discussed, there is one thing I wish I could have conveyed to you more strongly. I hope you can keep it in mind on your journey. It is:
God’s central attribute is Love.
Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus Bro and don’t loose track of His love, all else is just a banging gong, a squeaky door to hell.
Shalom,
Mark
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
My working theory is that their death was ensured by means of their being cut off from the source of everlasting life--the Tree of Life.
Right on! This is what I was clumsily trying to convey. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | John 7:37-38 (NRSV)
On the last day of the festival, the great day, while Jesus was standing there, he cried out, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me, [38] and let the one who believes in me drink. As the scripture has said, 'Out of the believer's heart shall flow rivers of living water.' "
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Precisely. And, to my understanding, the verb tenses in the Greek denote ongoing action; i.e., "he who is coming to Me will not hunger," and "he who is believing in Me will never thirst."
John,
Have you listened to Doc's sermon? | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Carleone
Apparently they'll be able to edit not just your response but your original post as well, putting words in your mouth.
And evade the offence.
Hey, I'm sorry we're really on the wrong foot here. I mis-read what you were trying to say, and took it in a complete wrong direction. No excuses. My bad. I've deleted my post and wish we could just roll back time on this one.
You're aware I'm not moderating, right? Please don't jump to conclusions.
gently, Corey | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by CJF
quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Carleone
Apparently they'll be able to edit not just your response but your original post as well, putting words in your mouth.
And evade the offence.
Hey, I'm sorry we're really on the wrong foot here. I mis-read what you were trying to say, and took it in a complete wrong direction. No excuses. My bad. I've deleted my post and wish we could just roll back time on this one.
You're aware I'm not moderating, right? Please don't jump to conclusions.
gently, Corey
Sure, he finally caught wind of who he was dealing with. What size boots do you wear? | | Back to Top | | |
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