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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ok... SNOWBALL FIGHT! That's for you 2nd cousin.... let's see if the laws of physics still work! POW! | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | M.S.Cousin
quote:
The problem is, we can only imagine the physics we currently have, not any kind of physics that could have possibly existed, he said, snapping his fingers....
EXACTLY! LOL!  | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:17 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/7/2005 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | One more...
1 Cor 15 again...
50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Ah...I know, I know...
But I just wanted to get across that saying that death is NOT an enemy of Creation and was NOT an evil alien force brought in by Adamic sin...is contradicting Paul's idea explicitly.
So...who's right? Paul or us? | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:38 AM (GMT -6) | | This, too, shall pass....
___________________________________________________________________
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For Tom:
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:40 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings, Tom:
I read your post just before I went to sleep last night; and,
voiced a silent prayer...
Stand strong, brother. 'This, too, shall pass'...
Peace & blessings,
<><
TGB wrote: quote:
You know what? I'm feeling like I know less and less. Gosh. We're finding time travel, laws of physics, entropy, and all kinds of stuff in the Bible. I don't know.
I feel like a very few things are pretty clear to me from Scripture:
1) God exists and God is love. God hates sin, which if it doesn't mean he is always and everywhere opposed to it with every fiber of his being doesn't mean much of anything.
2) God created the world and us in it. It seems pretty clear to me that creation was "good." It was all good when God got finished.
3) We screwed it up. Screwed it up bad. If this too was God's own determination then I don't know what to make of the claim that creation was "good." It seems so obvious to me that Genesis makes a sharp distinction between the "good" that God is responsible for leading up to human sin and all the sin that begins to multiply after WE screwed creation up and it hasn't worked right since.
4) Jesus fixes what's wrong with us and creation. Part of it he fixes now and part he'll fix when he comes back.
5) God wants me to love him and wants me to follow Jesus.
I honestly don't know much more than this. I'm friggin tired of this stuff.
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 01/06/2005 11:09:53 PM
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Oooh...I'm in manic mode...
From Millard Erickson's Christian Theology, 2nd edition. Page 500. All emphases mine.
___________________________
Does is matter whether the story of Adam and Eve is taken as a historical record about an actual pair of people at the beginning of the human race, or as a representative account about all of us? The question is not simply how the writer of the account regarded it, for some might say that the perspective that Adam and Eve were historical is the form in which the writer expressed they doctrine contained in the account. This form could be changed without losing the essence of the doctrine. But is the perspective that Adam and Eve were historical figures merely the form of expression of the doctrine of the origin of humanity, or is it somehow of its essence?
One approach to this issue is to examine how the New Testament views Adam. It is true that the word Adam may be taken as a general or class term ("human") rather than a proper name. However, in two passages, Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, Paul relates human sinfulness to Adam in a way that makes it difficult to regard "Adam" as merely a representative term. In Romans 5:12-21 Paul refers several times to the trespass of "one man." He also refers to the obedience, grace, and righteousness of "the one man, Jesus Christ." Paul is drawing a parallel between the one man Adam and the one man Jesus Christ. Note that the negative side of Paul's doctrinal exposition rests on the facticity of Adam. Sin, guilt, and death are universal facts of human existence; they are essential parts of Paul's doctrine of humanity. Paul explains that all humans die because sin came into the world through one person. Death is a manifestation of the condemnation resulting from one human's sin. It is difficult indeed to conclude anything other than that Paul believed that Adam was a particular person who committed a sin significant for the rest of the human race.
In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul's position becomes even more evident. Here, he says that death came by a man (v21), and then makes clear (v.22) that he is referring to Adam. In verse 45 Paul distinctly refers to "the first man Adam." If one understand the word Adam always to mean "human," there is something of a redundancy here, to say the very least. It seems clear enough that Paul thought of Adam as a real, historical person.
For reasons such as these, we conclude that not only did the New Testament writers like Paul believe that an actual Adam and Eve existed, but it was an indispensible part of their doctrine of humanity. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:53 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/7/2005 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Mephi wrote:
quote:
Are we all LIBERALS yet? Whohooooo!
Three cheers for the blue states! (Oh, oh. Watch out for the snowballs!)
Peace & blessings,
<>< | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | JEE:
quote:
This will probably be ignored, but FWIW, I don't see why the fact that Adam and Even were cut off from access to the Tree/Source of Life as a judgment by God upon their sin cannot be viewed as an "enemy" metaphorically speaking. Death came upon all because all followed Adam in sinning, thus cutting themselves off/alienating themselves from the life of God.
Heh. Assuming your negation of traducianism or original sin (you hyper-Wesleyan, you  ), you would still have to say that human DEATH as a phenomenon ultimately came from HUMAN DECISIONS (albeit bad ones). In other words, IF we could be completely sinless, we would NEVER DIE. Basically that OUR FIRST SINFUL DECISIONS begin the deterioration process unto death. That it's our OWN PERSONAL sinful decisions that offset the regenerative process that God would have available for EVERYONE.
Uh....you believe that. Wow. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | MSC:
quote:
MephiEternal,
<snap><snap><snap>
Under your view of Adam
<snap><snap><snap>
please
<snap><snap><snap>
Explain the geneaologies
The only genealogy that uses Adam in the New Testament is in Luke 3. It ultimately stems from Genesis. Question for you: When was Genesis "written"?
Hint: Think "post-exilic"
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
JEE:
quote:
This will probably be ignored, but FWIW, I don't see why the fact that Adam and Even were cut off from access to the Tree/Source of Life as a judgment by God upon their sin cannot be viewed as an "enemy" metaphorically speaking. Death came upon all because all followed Adam in sinning, thus cutting themselves off/alienating themselves from the life of God.
Heh. Assuming your negation of traducianism or original sin (you hyper-Wesleyan, you ), you would still have to say that human DEATH as a phenomenon ultimately came from HUMAN DECISIONS (albeit bad ones). In other words, IF we could be completely sinless, we would NEVER DIE. Basically that OUR FIRST SINFUL DECISIONS begin the deterioration process unto death. That it's our OWN PERSONAL sinful decisions that offset the regenerative process that God would have available for EVERYONE.
Uh....you believe that. Wow.
(I vote that the new forum have the rolling eyes icon).
Actually, no, what I have plainly stated in this thread that I believe is that physical death is the result of being cut off from the Tree of Life. Since the Rebellion of Adam, no one enters this life automatically reconnected to the Tree of Life (which is Christ).
Jesus said "He that is living and believing in me shall never die." Obviously, he was referring to spiritual life primarily, but in the context of the story (his raising of Lazarus), he was also pointing to the ultimate physical resurrection as well.
I tend to view the Genesis account (and Paul's reference to it) as an allegorical poetic description of the tragic state of all mankind. I don't view it as a scientific or historical text in the modern sense of the word. The genre is clearly that of epic poetry. And I do affirm that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
All who follow Adam die (both spiritually and physically) while in Christ all are made alive (spiritually now and physically in the resurrection).
By the way, I'm not truly a Wesleyan; Wesley strongly affirmed the Augustinian concept of Original Sin, which doctrine I do in fact deny. My views would be more accurately described generally as semi-Pelagian. Following the New School Divinity of the 1700s & 1800s (Taylor, Barnes, Finney, et al), I believe we have inherited physical depravity as a consequence of the Sin of Adam, though spiritual depravity/death is something that is entered into voluntarily.
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry if this is belaboring...but I just want to be upfront of the stakes in this.
Paul's teaching is VERY clear. So...
To say that there was no literal Adamic couple (like in the story)...
AND...
To say that death is NOT an enemy of God brought on by Adamic sin...
is to effectively deny the inerrancy of the Bible AND say that Paul was in error on a matter of theological import (the doctrines of Creation, sin, and humanity).
Are you people willing to go this far? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | JEE:
quote:
Actually, no, what I have plainly stated in this thread that I believe is that physical death is the result of being cut off from the Tree of Life. Since the Rebellion of Adam, no one enters this life automatically reconnected to the Tree of Life (which is Christ).
Jesus said "He that is living and believing in me shall never die." Obviously, he was referring to spiritual life primarily, but in the context of the story (his raising of Lazarus), he was also pointing to the ultimate physical resurrection as well.
OH....allegory.
Well, hey, it's not like that's not a historical way to do things...
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/7/2005 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Sorry if this is belaboring...but I just want to be upfront of the stakes in this.
Paul's teaching is VERY clear. So...
To say that there was no literal Adamic couple (like in the story)...
AND...
To say that death is NOT an enemy of God brought on by Adamic sin...
is to effectively deny the inerrancy of the Bible AND say that Paul was in error on a matter of theological import (the doctrines of Creation, sin, and humanity).
Are you people willing to go this far?
Thanks so much for your posts, it's really helpful to me and given me a lot to chew on.
My initial instinct is to re-consider how I've been interpretting those scriptures. Since I believe that all scripture is God-breathed, I of course expect that all scripture will not contradict itself. So if there is an apparent contradiction, I must be off on my interpretation of one or the other or both.
So... what happens when we try this: those NT passages are intended to be describing our spiritual condition, not necessarily our physical condition? | | Back to Top | | |
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