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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
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| Posted 1/5/2005 11:21 AM (GMT -6) |   | "Being the Kingdom in a Groaning Creation"
http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2005/2005-01-02_Boyd_Being-the-Kingdom-in-a-Groaning-Creation.mp3
Scriptures and Quotations:
http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2005/2005-01-02_Boyd_Being-the-Kingdom-in-a-Groaning-Creation.pdf
Thoughts? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Is the 2nd law of thermodynamics ("bondage to decay") indeed essentially demonic? The food chain? The laws of physics heavily influenced by demons? Do venus fly traps come from the devil? Do tyrannosaurus rexes come from Baalzebuub?
Is it true that from pretty much the BEGINNING of creation...for billions and billions of years, Satan and demons have been running things?
Was there a "Pandora's Box" situation with two naked humans in some Garden of Eden? (PLEASE READ...Pandora's Box
http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/ss/topics/prometheus.html )
Don't eat from the tree...or you will surely die. Don't press the big shiny button, you guys. You'll let the devil out!
Were Adam and Eve really supposed to outwit a BILLION year old being who literally orchestrated much of the natural laws and natural world?
Did God really expect Adam and Eve to be "viceroys" over all creation AGAINST Satan...even though it took God BILLIONS of years to fight against Satan supposedly?
Thorns and thistles didn't come on the scene...until Adam fell?
Get to the part where Doc talks about how human beings (including Adam) were supposed to have lordship and dominion power over STORMS...and how Jesus was bringing that back. Whoooboy.
Listen very close to this sermon. And tell me what you think.
We don't have much longer on this board...so hurry. 
PS:
According to Edith Hamilton in Mythology the source of all misfortune was Pandora's curiosity. "The gods presented her with a box into which each had put something harmful, and forbade her ever to open it. Then they sent her to Epimetheus, who took her gladly although Prometheus had warned him never to accept anything from Zeus. He took her, and afterward when that dangerous thing, a woman, was his, he understood how good his brother's advice had been. For Pandora, like all women, was possessed of a lively curiosity. She had to know what was in the box. One day she lifted the lidand out flew plagues innumerable, sorrow and mischief for mankind. In terror Pandora clapped the lid down, but too late. One good thing, however, was thereHope. It was the only good the casket had held among the many evils, and it remains to this day mankind's sole comfort in misfortune."
PSS:
Isn't it funny how both of the myths (Epimetheus/Pandora and Adam/Eve) blame the start of all this crap on the WOMAN?? How's that for patriarchal? And a biblical author wastes NO time...
2 Corithians 11
1I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Ha! What you say to this, ladies??
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | In the message, see if you see the two axioms:
1) Death is the enemy of God
2) Death comes by sin (Adamic sin in particular)
See how much Doc relies on Paul's thoughts about Adam and Creation. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 12:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
quote:
Actually I just finished listening to the whole thing and I have to say. ... hold your breath Mephi... I completely agree with Greg. From my view, right now at least...I think its completely possible that everything he said is true. (trust me, I listened TRYING To find things to disagree with!)
Hey, I hear ya. Possible, yeah. But PLAUSIBLE??
You're really down with ALL the implications of his thought? Human beings supposed to have dominion over atmospheric phenomena?? Holding to the restorationist view of Creation? An original VEGETARIAN creation? Literal Adam and Eve? Venus fly traps and carnivores as demonically influenced?
Very interesting. But I definitely respect your ability to believe what seems persuasive to you. Perhaps you can show me the persuasiveness. I don't see it...anymore. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/5/2005 2:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Just looking at the notes (thanks for posting them, by the way, Meph), the patristic quotes he makes sound awfully Manicheaistic/dualistic. Interesting.
As I posted in response to Doc's post in another thread last week, I find the idea that Satan presently basically rules the material world to be contrary to the clear teachings of the New Testament.
Psalms 99:1 The LORD reigns; let the peoples tremble! He sits enthroned upon the cherubim; let the earth quake! 2 The LORD is great in Zion; he is exalted over all the peoples. 3 Let them praise thy great and terrible name! Holy is he! 4 Mighty King, lover of justice, thou hast established equity; thou hast executed justice and righteousness in Jacob. 5 Extol the LORD our God; worship at his footstool! Holy is he!
Hopefully I will have enough time to give a listen to the full sermon later.
John
JEE, I thought your critique was important and valid.
- PoW
**********************************************
BTW: http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3676&whichpage=2
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/5/2005 2:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's my response to Doc's post on the "Was It an Act of God?" thread:
Hi Doc,
I really value your input on this. Thanks for responding. I have some responses below.
My first thought is, "I thought you believed in Christus Victor, not "Satan Still Rules and Reigns." (grin)
quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
...BUT, as with most ,modern theologies, doesn't give sufficient due to the place Satan plays in the prsent cosmos. He's call "the ruler" of the world (3 times by Jesus in Jn 12,13, and 16),
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
(The above all seem to clearly refer to Christ's victory "judgment" over the prince of this world, not that satan would continue to reign).
quote:
the "god of this age" (2 Cor 4:4;)
Adam Clarke has the following insightful comments on 2 Cor. 4:4:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world, etc.—We see here that those whose minds are blinded, are they who believe not; and because they believe not, their minds continue in darkness, and are proper subjects for Satan to work on; and he deepens the darkness, and increases the hardness.
quote:
who "controls the entire world" (I Jn 5:19).
If "world" here indicates the entire planet earth, how does this square with God and Christ being the King of glory, Creator of all things, Omnipotent, etc.? If on the other hand this refers to the voluntary moral slavery that all who obey Satan are under, it presents no problem for theodicy as far as I can tell.
quote:
He is the one who holds the "keys to the power of death" (Heb 2:14).
Heb. 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
It doesn't sound to me like Jesus failed in his mission to "destroy" (Gk. "undo") him that had the power of death; does it to you?
quote:
Not suprising that the creation under THIS MUCH control by the evil one has occasional tusanmis that kill thousands now and then. Is it?
I'm having a hard time seeing how Satan is not stronger than God in the scenario you propose.
quote:
Before Augustine, this was the way of explain so called "natural" evil.
Gen. 1:29-31, The original creation was non-carnivorous, free of all violence.
Gen. 3 14ff. The original creation was devoid of sweat, thorns, thistles and death.
Rom 8:21 The entire CREATION Groans for the manifestation of the childeren of God.
Bottom line: Nothing operates the way it was supposed to. Its ALL under demonic corruption, down to the very laws of physics that produce death (entropy).
That's really interesting. Besides God at War and S&TPOE, what scholarly books (or even particular writings of the early church fathers) would you recommend for research on this subject?
quote:
Be the kingdom -- in the midst of a creation that groans.
Amen. Thy kingdom come, Lord.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/5/2005 2:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
My first thought is, "I thought you believed in Christus Victor, not "Satan Still Rules and Reigns." (grin)
THIS IS IMPORTANT! | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | On Doc's behalf, I think that he would agree that Christ has won the victory and rules all...IN PRINCIPLE. The death and resurrection of Christ was the nail in the coffin for Satan, as it were. Christ has all power and has triumphed over all...IN PRINCIPLE. What we exist in NOW is merely the "death throes" of Satan's waning rule. He's said this in all of his works on the matter. Remember the whole D-day/World War II analogy? The enemy is SOUNDLY defeated...but there are still mad pockets of waning resistance. At least, until the Consumation of all things. Doc makes this very clear, I think.
Personally, my issue is NOT that. My issue is what one has to swallow to get the whole view to work...namely...
--A LITERAL Adamic couple (ala restoration view of Genesis)
--the idea that Satan and his angels pretty much RULED this cosmos from the beginning unto billions of years
--death, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, food chains, and carnivorousness are ultimately and INHERENTLY demonic.
There's my issue.
*************************
Jef:
quote:
I depart from you here. You know as well as I do that there's no simple ALTERNATIVE, either. All views about Genesis have problems - textual, evidential, and otherwise.
If you've got a plausible and coherent way to approach new testament text with the assumption that Genesis is myth, I would love to hear it before the forum closes!
Plausible and coherent? Sure. Just say that Paul was wrong about his belief that Adam and Eve were literal beings. What?
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/5/2005 4:29 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
selah: Actually I just finished listening to the whole thing and I have to say. ... hold your breath Mephi... I completely agree with Greg. From my view, right now at least...I think its completely possible that everything he said is true. (trust me, I listened TRYING To find things to disagree with!)
Mephi: Hey, I hear ya. Possible, yeah. But PLAUSIBLE??
me: Well, can you think of something more plausible? I don't think denying scripture or just deciding (with finite abilities) what parts of scripture to accept (and what to reject as absurd or offensive) is going to cut it. Saying Paul was wrong about Adam/eve but not wrong about this and that takes quite a lot of insight, don't cha think? How do we do that Meph?
I hear Greg's sermon saying, "Considering scripture, especially what Jesus Himself had to say about the adversary, the tsunami seems like par for the course in this fallen world. Suffering and pain like this must come from the god of this age because it looks nothing like what God gave us originally nor what he promises to give us when all is said and done"
Jesus gave us the heads up on evil. The world is full of it. Think about a wounded healer. Who of us is not wounded? Why is that so?
Really, take a look at animals. They are crazy killers. They rip each other apart - they suffer while being eaten alive. What's up with that? Can you explain it better than to look directly at the scriptures Greg referenced? I certainly can't. Does this seem like God's mode of operation to you?
When I think about lions chilling with lambs, no more tears, children free of fear and hunger and oxen eating straw when all is done...that seems more like the God I know. Why wouldn't the opposite of all that(which is what we SEE in the world) be evil/from the evil one?
We can talk about interpretation/hermeneutics all the live long day, but the one thing that will never change is the fact that you and I believe in the same God. The One revealed in Jesus Christ. If we believe in Him and in His words to us (which is how we learned about him in the first place) then believing in a literal Adam/Eve doesn't seem that far fetched. Is it hard to believe in a literal Cain and Abel?
Mephi quote:
You're really down with ALL the implications of his thought?
me: no, I don't even think he is down with all the implications of his thought. But where does it say we have to be? Suggesting Paul was wrong has HUGE implications, for example. ;)
Mephi quote:
Human beings supposed to have dominion over atmospheric phenomena?? Holding to the restorationist view of Creation?
Well, of course these sound weird, but isn't it also weird to think of yourself as seated with God in Heavenly places, blessed with every spiritual blessing, a friend of Christ etc. What if we really DO have dominion over these things and we just don't believe it because we are inundated with lies and completely stubborn? Check it out Mt 8:26 - And he said to them, "Why are you afraid, you of little faith?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a dead calm.
Why do you think He rebukes the waves mephi? What's your take.
quote:
Perhaps you can show me the persuasiveness. I don't see it...anymore.
me: well this is my second attempt after losing the first (fill in mad face!) I feel like there is too much to say to do well online. Let's talk in real life one day, ok?
gotta run,
love
selah
Oh, and I think you may have him on the Venus Fly trap thing
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/5/2005 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
On Doc's behalf, I think that he would agree that Christ has won the victory and rules all...IN PRINCIPLE. The death and resurrection of Christ was the nail in the coffin for Satan, as it were. Christ has all power and has triumphed over all...IN PRINCIPLE. What we exist in NOW is merely the "death throes" of Satan's waning rule. He's said this in all of his works on the matter. Remember the whole D-day/World War II analogy? The enemy is SOUNDLY defeated...but there are still mad pockets of waning resistance. At least, until the Consumation of all things.
D.
I wouldn't accept what you say, in the way you've said it. I think its too limited. I'll take John Chrysostom instead: www.worship.ca/docs/l_stjohn.html .
Sorry.
- P.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/5/2005 5:26 PM (GMT -6) | | The golden age is yet to come, a time of love and peace. Listen and you can hear children playing with formerly dangerous animals. This was not fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. Nature has not returned to its intended balance and harmony that's stated in Romans 8:9-22. Such perfect tranquility is only possible when Christ reigns over the earth in his second coming.
Isaiah 11:6-10 (NRSV)
The wolf shall live with the lamb,
the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them.
[7] The cow and the bear shall graze,
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
[8.] The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder's den.
[9] They will not hurt or destroy
on all my holy mountain;
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
[10] On that day the root of Jesse shall stand as a signal to the peoples; the nations shall inquire of him, and his dwelling shall be glorious.
Romans 8:19-21 (NIV)
The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. [20] For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope [21] that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Matthew Henry’s Commentary:
"The sufferings of the saints strike no deeper than the things of time, last no longer than the present time, are light afflictions, and but for a moment. How vastly different are the sentence of the word and the sentiment of the world, concerning the sufferings of this present time! Indeed the whole creation seems to wait with earnest expectation for the period when the children of God shall be manifested in the glory prepared for them. There is an impurity, deformity, and infirmity, which has come upon the creature by the fall of man. There is an enmity of one creature to another. And they are used, or abused rather, by men as instruments of sin. Yet this deplorable state of the creation is in hope. God will deliver it from thus being held in bondage to man’s depravity. The miseries of the human race, through their own and each other’s wickedness, declare that the world is not always to continue as it is. Our having received the first-fruits of the Spirit, quickens our desires, encourages our hopes, and raises our expectations. Sin has been, and is, the guilty cause of all the suffering that exists in the creation of God. It has brought on the woes of earth; it has kindled the flames of hell. As to man, not a tear has been shed, not a groan has been uttered, not a pang has been felt, in body or mind, that has not come from sin. This is not all; sin is to be looked at as it affects the glory of God. Of this how fearfully regardless are the bulk of mankind! Believers have been brought into a state of safety; but their comfort consists rather in hope than in enjoyment. From this hope they cannot be turned by the vain expectation of finding satisfaction in the things of time and sense. We need patience, our way is rough and long; but He that shall come, will come, though he seems to tarry."
Shalom,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/6/2005 5:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
quote:
Saying Paul was wrong about Adam/eve but not wrong about this and that takes quite a lot of insight, don't cha think? How do we do that Meph?
I hear where you are coming from. This is the EPISTEMOLOGICAL quandary that leads to the doctrine of inerrancy. Look at "Across the Spectrum" as Paul and Greg completely dismantle that argument. Seriously.
------------------
Let me start with this...and go backwards...
Selah:
quote:
Oh, and I think you may have him on the Venus Fly trap thing
Oh, do I? Why? Because it sounds absurd? Because it sounds loony as hell? See here's what we have to understand about a chief underpinning of Doc's theology. When you break EVERYTHING down, a chief assumption is the following:
Anything that is essentially involved with VIOLENCE or DETERIORATION of any sort CANNOT be of the Kingdom of God or God's will.
Soooo...anything that has one being preying off of another being to sustain life is VIOLENCE and therefore not of the Kingdom. So that rules out the food chain and all that. Anything that has deterioration involved is not of the Kingdom. So that rules out entropy and the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Carnivorousness is one being preying off another being for it's own life...so VENUS FLY TRAPS (plants that eat bugs) must, BY DEFINITION OF WHAT THEY DO, by essentially demonic...a malicious perversion of the "original" vegatarian creation! Heck, the entire EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS involves entropy AND all that. So it MUST mean that the evolutionary process was NOT of God...and influenced by the Devil.
Do you understand what is happening here, Selah? This is why the early church fathers he mentions say what they say about it HAVING to be the case that demons are behind all that. And even though Doc tries REALLY hard to separate himself from the idea of "a demon being behind every bush" it ends up becoming that in a significant way. (Digression: Incidentally, why do we think it would be any different. People like Origen and Tertullian didn't know an EIGHTH about what we know about the cosmos. They had no concept of a heliocentric system, microorganism, or atmospheric mechanisms. Why WOULDN'T they think a demons behind all this stuff???) And the implications get CRAZY...especially when positing the restoration idea. You said that you don't take all the implications...
quote:
no, I don't even think he is down with all the implications of his thought. But where does it say we have to be?
This is what I tell Doc. It's not cool that you take what you want from an worldview and conveniently leave all the nonsense out. Take all the cookies and conveniently leave out all the crap. "Yeah, I'll take the restoration view and the explanation of evil...but venus fly traps being essentially demonic? Nah, can't get with that."
WHATEVER!
Hey, if I've got a view...like Paul possibly being wrong...you can bet your sweet bippy (ala Laugh-In from the 60s  ) that I'm going to be consistent as all get out. I'm not just gonna do some cafeteria-line theologizing just to make it though.
But hey, y'all do y'all...
At any rate, let me say this...I MAY (and I stress that word, MAY) be able to accept the idea of Satan having so much power...leading to the Venus fly trap and the 2nd law of thermodynamics being essentially demonic. (Just saying it makes me feel silly!)
But...
ONe thing that I cannot fathom...at all...is the restorationist view of Creation which one HAS TO TAKE in some form in order for this whole thing to be BIBLICALLY consistent with the two axioms:
1) Death is the enemy of God
2) Death came through sin (in particular, Adam's sin)
As I've been trying to tell people forever, it seems like now, the ONLY WAY that Doc's view really holds together is if one takes a LITERAL VIEW of Adam and Eve in restorationist fashion. The gap theory. To say this view is speculative is the LEAST that could be said about it. I know...I know...Doc will say it's "abductive" reasoning he uses to put everything together. But it's still problematic. Especially when there's very strong argumentation for the literary view of the Creation stories. Even Doc says this. And check out what Old Testament scholars like Terrence Fretheim and Walter Bruggeman say about the Creation stories. It's interesting what you can say when you are not bogged down in systematics!
------------------------------
Selah:
quote:
Check it out Mt 8:26 - And he said to them, "Why are you afraid, you of little faith?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a dead calm.
Why do you think He rebukes the waves mephi? What's your take.
My take? Given the text and all, Jesus was demonstrating his lordship over nature...and his truly being the Son of God. The New Oxford Annotated Bible suggests that this may be an allusion to Ps. 107:29
28 Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble,
and he brought them out of their distress.
29 He stilled the storm to a whisper;
the waves of the sea were hushed.
30 They were glad when it grew calm,
and he guided them to their desired haven.
Thinking about it this would actually go VERY well with the disciples response to what Jesus did...
Matthew 8
Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We're going to drown!”
He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.
27The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
In all of the synoptic instances of this happening (Mark 4:35-41 and Luke 8:22-25) the disciple are concerning about the WINDS and SEA obeying him. They are amazed at his sovereignty over nature. But therein was their lack of faith! They called Jesus LORD, but were scared that they would die...even when the LORD HIMSELF was in the boat! And if the authors KNEW about Psalm 107...what could be conveyed by this type of thing? Let's think about it. One could say this...WITHOUT trying to assert that Jesus was trying to show them that pre-fall humanity was always SUPPOSED to be able to do this.
But this is just a possible view. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/6/2005 5:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo Mephi-
I'm mad busy. Flying out tomorrow to Beirut for a visit. But I wanted to say a bit here. Haven't gotten to read all this thread.
I liked Greg’s sermon. I’d have to listen to it again to pick out each and every little thing I didN’T agree with, but in general I think it best represents the sort of warfare I see in Scripture. You seem to agree with the basic warfare worldview but you’re uncomfortable with what you think seems to be entailed in it.
But I think we ought to really explore the possibilities of conceding some of what you say with Greg's basic warfare model. I wonder if entropy COULD have been designed by God, apart from evil, for this probabtionary period. In other words, God didn’t necessarily have to create the world to begin with in the state he intended it be when his purposes for humanity and creation were fulfilled (irrespective of sin). Maybe entropy and some natural disasters were built into the system by God for soul-making purposes. Hey, why not? What if we married THIS with Satan’s having been entrusted with creation? So when Satan falls and takes creation with him, he pushes entropy and contingent natural processes beyond what God intended them to be and conflicts everything. So we might say that when Paul says God subjected creation to “decay” and that it “groans” in response, that this basically is the PRE-fall orientation God designed. What else might Adam and Eve's "tending the garden" BEFORE SIN imply? Sure, thornes come after the Fall, but before the Fall THERE IS STILL WORK TO DO, which implies a LACK in nature. It implies that nature's processes needed tending prior to the entrance of human sin. So perhaps God intended humanity to lead creation out of this probationary entropy (i.e., tend the garden) into its full and God-intended purposes. So we groan doubly. We would have groaned irrespective of sin in a material creation anyhow simply because in our finite physical bodies we were NOT capable of the sort of intimacy God intended we arrive at, but we groan especially now that Satan has corrupted the process.
About a literal Adamic couple, Greg and I agreed at dinner that night (did you catch this?) that even if one assumes an evolutionary history of the human race which was at some point in time endowed by God with his image, you still have SOME point in time and a particular couple (or generation) that was endowed divinely. So you still have some historical starting point for a unique and special humanity.
Is there also a way of conceding physical mortality as entailed in our being created finite by God (as seems to be the case based on , on the one hand, and viewing death as an “enemy” (as Paul teaches)? In what sense is it an “enemy” Doesn’t Hebrews say Satan holds “the power of death”? Might that suggest that mortality might have become something in Satan’s hands it wasn’t intended by God to be? Might it be the “fear of death” which Hebrews speaks of which is the “enemy” Paul has in mind, so that it’s not physical mortality in and of itself which is the enemy but physical morality faced (and feared) by people who are separated from God which is to be overcome? I’m just trying to step outside the box a bit. Maybe there’s a way to affirm entropy and mortality as God-authored but also affirm that it’s out of control and corrupted as well.
Tom
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/6/2005 6:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi –
I know I don't have much context with you guys, but I've appreciated this discussion, and wanted to get a little feedback. I consider myself really on board with Greg's views on most topics, but this last Sunday I was sitting there with skeptical eyebrows. Does he really think the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics was not part of God's original design? This one stretches me beyond where I'm able to go at this time. In general I'm more of the Hugh Ross camp when it comes to discussion of Origins, which I summarize as: the facts of science and the facts of the Bible will not contradict each other. Where there is apparent conflict, it means we are misinterpreting one or the other or both.
So, as it relates to the discussion here so far, my thoughts have been that indeed there was the 2nd Law (and even physical death) from the very beginning, but God’s original design had some component which would counteract this, at least for us humans. Maybe this is what is symbolized by the Tree of Life? Anyway, when humanity fell, that regenerative provision was removed. What do you think?
Corey
Psalm 102:25-27 "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them, and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/6/2005 7:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Carleone
Your bones growing brittle was part of God's original design?
What good are brittle bones?
In my view there wouldn't be such a thing as brittle bones; God had provided some means for maintaining optimum health indefinitely. | | Back to Top | | |
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