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|  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/21/2005 11:09 AM (GMT -6) |   | Yo. I thought that this was REALLY good stuff. I love lucid articulation of one's point of view. Besides this, I would find it hard for anyone to really argue with his idea of the "industrialization of sex" As others have responded, there ARE some things that could be "picked at" but overall, it's tight. Tell me what you think.
Industrialized Sex: How Christians Can Restore True Intimacy by Joe Carter http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/001289.html#more
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In his essay on “The Pleasures of Eating”, the philosopher and farmer Wendell Berry says that after delivering a lecture on the decline of American farming and rural life, someone in the audience would invariably ask what city people can do. “Eat responsibly," Berry would reply.
…by restoring one's consciousness of what is involved in eating; by reclaiming responsibility for one's own part in the food economy. One might begin with the illuminating principle of Sir Albert Howard's The Soil and Health, that we should understand "the whole problem of health in soil, plant, animal, and man as one great subject." Eaters, that is, must understand that eating takes place inescapably in the world, that it is inescapably an agricultural act, and that how we eat determines, to a considerable extent, how the world is used. This is a simple way of describing a relationship that is inexpressibly complex. To eat responsibly is to understand and enact, so far as one can, this complex relationship.
Berry argues that eating is an agrarian act and that something valuable is lost when we subscribe to the industrialized, consumerist view of sustenance. Although his essay is about food, his words could be applied to another method of fulfilling a physical need -- sex. In fact, he draws a similar parallel in his discussion of “industrial sex”:
It is odd that simply because of its ‘sexual freedom’ our time should be considered extraordinarily physical. In fact, our ‘sexual revolution’ is mostly an industrial phenomenon, in which the body is used as a idea of pleasure or a pleasure machine with the aim of ‘freeing’ natural pleasure from natural consequence.
Like any other industrial enterprise, industrial sexuality seeks to conquer nature by exploiting it and ignoring the consequences, by denying any connection between nature and spirit or body and soul, and by evading social responsibility. The spiritual, physical, and economic costs of this ‘freedom’ are immense, and are characteristically belittled or ignored. The diseases of sexual irresponsibility are regarded as a technological problem and an affront to liberty.
Industrial sex, characteristically, establishes its freeness and goodness by an industrial accounting, dutifully toting up numbers of ‘sexual partners,’ orgasms, and so on, with the inevitable industrial implication that the body is somehow a limit on the idea of sex, which will be a great deal more abundant as soon as it can be done by robots.
[Meph's note: With respect to that last part, it's already hear. Extremely lifelike sex-dolls and body parts. This is TACIT EVIDENCE for the very industrialization of sex that he's talking about!]
Berry offers advice on how to recover the pleasures of eating from consumerism. In imitation, I offer the following modest suggestions for how Christians* can recover sex from industrialization:
1. We should continuously point out that the term pre-marital sex is an oxymoron. Because sex and marriage both perform the function of uniting a man and a woman into one-flesh, engaging in sexual relations is ontologically indistinguishable from marriage. Even when the tongue claims otherwise, the body understands the promise being made during intercourse. Saying “I do” with the body may not carry the same consequences as it does in a marriage ceremony, but the effects on the soul are similar.
2. Some people will claim that there is something valuable to be gained by having multiple sexual partners before settling down for lifelong monogamy. These misguided souls completely miss the point. Sex is not a technique to be mastered but a means of communicating. Sexual intercourse is a non-verbal expression of profound commitment, openness, and trust. Having multiple sexual “partners” as a means of preparing for marriage is like mastering the art of lying in order to become a paragon of honesty.
3. The bookstores are filled with books and magazines that offer tips and advice on maximizing pleasure, providing multiple orgasms, and other ways to have “better” sex. This desire to improve and be more productive is a hallmark of industrialized sex. But there is no objective standard by which sex can be measured against. “Good” sex is not found by following a formula which will lead to the efficient maximization of sexual pleasure. Sex cannot be measured by the number of orgasms per hour (OPH) or any other idealized unit of measure anymore than a good conversation can be measured by the number of words spoken.
4. How long should lovemaking sessions last? Ideally, from the beginning to the end. Truly, the focus on time (“I can make love all night…”) is absurd. Clocks and calendars have no place in sexual relations. Intimacy is a lifelong process that begins on the wedding day and is unjustly interrupted by death; intercourse is simply intense periods of special physical intimacy that ebb and flow throughout this period. While each phase is special and important the duration is of minor consequence. Watching the clock takes the focus off the proper object: one’s spouse.
5. Although sex is not tied to the Gregorian calendar, it is cyclical, often following the natural rhythms of the female body. The husband’s desire should, therefore, be respectful of the woman’s physical and hormonal cycles. Her body is the means by which God chose to bring forth new life and the vessel he chose to enter the world in physical form. A woman’s body is not a machine for delivering pleasure but a mysterious and precious creation. Husbands should always keep that in mind.
6. Having sex can lead to having children. Industrialized sex views this as a potentially unfortunate hazard that should be avoided. Deciding to have a child is a decision that should be made prayerfully and with God’s guidance. And the choice of using technology – whether a thermometer or the Pill – to avoid an untimely pregnancy is a matter between a couple and their Creator. But sex should never be completely stripped of its conceptive role.
7. Sex may be a joy and a sanctuary but it is also a marital duty. It is the primary physical method God provides in order to deepen and strengthen the union of a man and a woman. Forgoing sex for long periods of time can be a form of disobedience. If we are physically able, we should give ourselves to our spouses. We are the sole means by which they are able to properly meet that physical need. Denying our spouse food or sleep would be cruel and unjust. Withholding sex is no different.
8. While it hardly needs to be said, p*rnography has no place in marriage. Sex is intended to be viewed from the place of a first-person participant, not a third-person observer. One of the reasons pornography becomes addictive is because it leads to the attempt to fulfill an impossible desire. When observing p*rn, a person shifts from an I-Thou relationship to the place of the Other, forever outside, waiting to be invited in. That invitation never comes, leading to an endlessly frustrating search for fulfillment that can never be met.
9. Equipment belongs in the factory, not in the bedroom. If you need battery-operated tools to enhance your sexual experience you have a problem.
10. Most of what gets classified under the category of sex has nothing to do with sex at all. Fetishes, sadomasochism, dominance and submission, etc., are always about something else (usually power) and never about intimacy and communication. Sort out your psychological issues on your counselor’s couch, not in your marriage bed.
11. A last bit of advice for young people: You may foolishly decide that you need to “make your own mistakes” rather than rely on the hard-earned experience of those that have gone before you. You may even be able to avoid most of the more blatantly detrimental aspects of sexual sin. I certainly did. I never suffered from the ravages of a venereal disease or had to deal with the effects of an unexpected pregnancy. I never suffered much of anything from my sin – except for loss. I lost one of the most valuable gifts God gives man: the ability to give myself completely to the person I love.
Anyone who tells you that sex outside of marriage causes no harm is a liar and a fool. You can’t build a fire in your lap and not get burned. And you can’t have multiple sexual partners and not become desensitized to the beauty and intimacy of marital intercourse. With Christ there is redemption and the hope of restoration. But before you make a rash choice, weigh the cost. It is never worth the price of true intimacy.
12. Christian couples are not only joined in union with each other but are united within the body of Christ. We belong not to ourselves but to each other. The church, therefore, must take an interest in the sexual needs of couples just as it would in the other spiritual and physical needs. The community of believers needs to show that the Bride of Christ rejects industrialized sex.
*I address this post to Christians because non-believers would not share my understanding of the role and nature of sex. While there may be some overlap of agreement, the presuppositional attitude of most non-Christians would be so foreign to my view that it would be impossible to offer suggestions for a general audience. "I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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 |  Truth Aficionado Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003 Total Posts : 1544 | Posted 4/21/2005 9:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 4/21/2005 9:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
Very good, Meph. Very good.
I would only care to comment about one part:
We should continuously point out that the term pre-marital sex is an oxymoron. Because sex and marriage both perform the function of uniting a man and a woman into one-flesh, engaging in sexual relations is ontologically indistinguishable from marriage. Even when the tongue claims otherwise, the body understands the promise being made during intercourse. Saying “I do” with the body may not carry the same consequences as it does in a marriage ceremony, but the effects on the soul are similar.
I think there is sufficient difference between both the meaning of the words "marriage" and "sex" as well as between the acts that create the two. One is married (generally) by an authority; one acts upon that authoritative act and allows the act of marriage to become a portal to a particular union by consumating it through sex. But were there to be no sex between the married couple, they are still, nevertheless, married. Further, they are a union, just as much as Adam and Eve were apart from sex (they are not said to have consumated until after Adam declared "She is bone of my bone . . .")
I "theologically" agree with your point, but I just want to make the differentiation. Otherwise, very cool, clean and concise.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?Post Edited (Starkman) : 4/21/2005 9:47:31 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  AtTheWell Registered Member
 Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 133 | Posted 4/22/2005 3:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
Meph:
11. A last bit of advice for young people: You may foolishly decide that you need to “make your own mistakes” rather than rely on the hard-earned experience of those that have gone before you. You may even be able to avoid most of the more blatantly detrimental aspects of sexual sin. I certainly did. I never suffered from the ravages of a venereal disease or had to deal with the effects of an unexpected pregnancy. I never suffered much of anything from my sin – except for loss. I lost one of the most valuable gifts God gives man: the ability to give myself completely to the person I love.
Anyone who tells you that sex outside of marriage causes no harm is a liar and a fool. You can’t build a fire in your lap and not get burned. And you can’t have multiple sexual partners and not become desensitized to the beauty and intimacy of marital intercourse. With Christ there is redemption and the hope of restoration. But before you make a rash choice, weigh the cost. It is never worth the price of true intimacy.
ATW: Beautifully said Meph. I'll be stealing this for another conversation with my children. Thank you for addressing this.
Peace, ATW | | Back to Top | | |
   |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 4/25/2005 9:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | | PS My avatar of Simon Cowell is not meant to suggest I look on the posts of others as he would. It's meant to communicate how I often think God looks upon MY own theological musings; with a mixture of interest, amusement, and boredom. It's ME he's looking up at!
Love the post, Mephi.
I love male/female issues. We are so different and the differences are amazing. One Arab friend of mine once told me and a group of buddies, "I make my wife bow down to me every day!" We all said, "You do what?" He said, "Every day I make my wife bow down in front of me." "How d'ya do that?" everybody inquired. He answerd, "Every morning she gets down on her hands and knees beside our bed and bows down. Then she says to me, 'Hunny! Come out from under that bed or else!"
Viva la difference! Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 4/25/2005 9:12:45 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Truth Aficionado Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003 Total Posts : 1544 | Posted 4/25/2005 9:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Truth Aficionado Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003 Total Posts : 1544 | Posted 4/25/2005 12:18 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Selah said... Also, this is not just for "fun," people really deal with this issue within Christian circles...
Sorry if you weren't amused by the humor of my last post, Selah. Did you even check out the link I referenced (Lefty or Righty?) ?
If someone is seriously "dealing" with this issue, then I guess it would be a real issue and they should stop before they go blind.
Peace,
Mark Post Edited (sparknheart) : 4/25/2005 6:09:00 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
    |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 4/27/2005 6:13 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Trey Dogg said...If I may add something about the masturbation topic... A situation was proposed in my Psychology class. Say there is a husband and wife. The husband is in the military and is sent overseas. He has no way of fulfilling his sexual needs, so he masturbates. Instead of using pornography or images of other women, he uses his wife. At first, this made sense for me to think that, yeah, I guess that would be okay. But the thing is that the image of the man's wife is still a fantasy: something not real, something not authentic... simply an image of what the man wishes a sexual experience with his wife would be. To me, in a way, it would be no better than looking at pornography. The act of masturbation is not authentic sexuality (perhaps with an exception of a mutual experience between husband and wife).
Trey, what would you say, then, of those who leave their wifes when they do their military duties? Wouldn't the bit about not defrauding one another in 1 Cor. 7 have implications if your take on "M" is correct? wjs | | Back to Top | | |
 |  AtTheWell Registered Member
 Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 133 | Posted 4/27/2005 8:40 AM (GMT -6) |   |
BBBCanada said...(emphasis mine) Good to show how the culture has inundated sexuality. But that is ALL this showed. Tends to fall within "evangelical moralism" parametres. If one is to speak about sexuality, one MUST GROUND it thoroughly THEOLOGICALLY, i.e. Trinity, et BBB,
Could you elaborate on this? What could that speech look like?
Much appreciated.
Peace, ATW | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/27/2005 10:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 4/27/2005 5:07 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Oh, by the way... MASTURBATION! Yep. Lessee how many passed out or got offended from THAT one...heh... 
HA! Shout’n it from the roof tops are weeee?!?
AtTheWell said...
Could you elaborate on this? What could that speech look like?
Yeah, sure…
Well, I’m sure that the author had only sooo much space to work within so Mr. Carter may not have been INTENDED to “get into these things” therefore, I cannot fault him totally. But I found his SCOPE to be too narrow in terms of developing not only a BIBLICAL/SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY based in biblical texts and teachings such as the Trinity (though he doesn’t totally omit such grounding, I just think he could have been more explicit), but a philosophical one (understanding) in terms of personhood/the self which should also be grounded in scripture and theology. In other words, Mr. Carter did not develop the philosophical underpinnings as to why there is “industrialized sex” in the first place. Industrialized sex is more or less a SYMPTOM of a more DEEPER PROBLEM in my opinion.
Selah said...
Good Meph. In general I'd agree. Now, what about specific issues inside as well as outside the marriage context?
For instance, how about the a person who's engaged to be married -- would it be alright for her to image her husband to be?
How about the couple who are unequally yoked libido-wise -- would it be better for her to masturbate rather than be frustrated in the marriage?
How about the young person who wants to wait until marriage, but hasn't met anyone yet and is VERY tempted?
y'know, things like that.
Let’s expand this a bit, aside from the question of a woman masturbating rather than being frustrated in her marriage. There IS a case in which a woman/man is a LAWFUL OBJECT OF ONE’S DESIRE.
Here are some scenarios. Pease check all that apply (in your own head):
[ ] It would be legitimate for a single man/woman to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a man/woman whom he/she is marrying tomorrow.
[ ] It would be legitimate for a single man/woman to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a man/woman whom he/she is engaged to.
[ ] It would be legitimate for a single man/woman to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a man/woman whom he/she has/is been in a long-term relationship with and it's assumed that they'll be married someday but nothing's official.
[ ] It would be legitimate for a single man/woman to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a man/woman whom he/she is has been in a relationship with for a couple months.
[ ] It would be legitimate for a single man/woman to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a woman whom he/she has/is been in a relationship with since yesterday.
[ ] It would be legitimate for a single man/woman to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a single man/woman whom he/she is going to ask out for the first time tomorrow.
[ ] It would be legitimate for a single man to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a single woman whom he has plans on asking out someday when he gets up the courage. (I didn’t put the man/woman thingy, because it is still the usual case in which gals don’t ask guys out if you as a woman do this, then add “woman” in there).
[ ] It would be legitimate for a single man/woman to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with he’s/she's dating.
[ ] It would be legitimate for an attached man to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a single woman whom he has plans on asking out once he drops that monotonous bore he's dating. (Again, as is mostly the case, more than likely a man will still be doing the asking).
[ ] It would be legitimate, if really uncool, for a married man whose wife is on life support and is likely to die tomorrow to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with a single woman whom he has plans on asking out a couple weeks after the wife dies. (Need I explain?)
[ ] It would be legitimate for an married man to look forward with anticipation to enjoying marital relations with his wife (assuming the church doesn't accept their attempt at an annulment) and, at the same time, a single woman whom he has plans on asking out (assuming the church does grant an annulment). (For any of our RC friends).
Now, I wouldn't condone lying in bed for half an hour stewing in one's juices (For lack of a better term. Alright already!) thinking about “tomorrow night.” Pleasure remembered, anticipated, or desired is all well and good, but give over to it and it quickly becomes all about getting pleasure right now.
So, while I do think there's a reasonably clear line between who is or isn't a lawful object of one's pursuit, I'm very far from saying that as long as you can reasonably foresee it happening at some point, go ahead and let your imagination run wild. There's no legalistic line in the sand here. But in general I would say that the more remote the goal, in time or probability or both, the more circumspect one ought to be in how attached to it one allows oneself to become.
Behind the phrase "a man/woman who is a lawful object of one's pursuit" are ideas that might be expanded upon with the following broad categories:
A. a man/woman whom one is actively courting with an express aim of getting married.
B. a man/woman whom one is not actively courting but whom one is currently in a position to take active steps toward this state.
C. a man/woman whom one is not currently in a position to take any steps toward pursuing but who, given a particular set of future circumstances, could conceivably become the lawful object of pursuit at a future time.
The first category would include the first two scenarios above.
The second category includes most of the middle group of the scenarios. Scenario 3 is ambiguous without further information about the nature of the understanding, but 4 through 9 all involve cases of a man/woman who is essentially a lawful object of pursuit. Forget about details like "she's dating a jerk" or "I'm still involved with so-and-so." Dating one woman doesn't mean one isn't in a position to contemplate breaking up with her and courting another woman, nor does the fact that the object of one's interest is dating someone else prevent one in principle from making one's own overture toward her. Even if a woman is engaged to be married, one is in principle free to make a counter-offer. All's fair etc. etc.
The third category would include the last two scenarios (more on these later).
With respect to the first category, where marriage is the express aim of the relationship, a couple may certainly take pleasure in the anticipation of their future wedded life, including their CONJUGAL LIFE (WHOO-HOO!), as long as this anticipation doesn't become a proximate occasion of sin HERE AND NOW.
With respect to the second category, where one is in a position to take active steps toward pursuing a man/woman, the man/woman in question is a lawful object of pursuit. In the course of thinking about whether or not to pursue him/her, the man/woman may certainly think about the man/woman in the capacity of a prospective bridegroom/bride. This includes a whole range of relevant considerations, including how the man/women feels about his/her personality and company, his/her interests and talents, his/her beliefs and opinions and style, the sort of /father/mother and husband/wife she is likely to be, and how attractive he/she finds him/her, how sexually appealing. At this stage I wouldn't condone developing elaborate scenarios or wallowing in such thoughts for prolonged periods, because it would be “fostering an attachment” (using RC language here) whose prospects are too remote. But in choosing whether or not to pursue a man/woman it's reasonable to take as one factor in consideration how much he would like the prospect of sharing his/her bed for the rest of his/her life. And if he/she likes that prospect very much, it's reasonable that that attraction should be one factor that impels him/her to seek her hand.
With respect to the third category, where one is not currently in a position to take any steps toward pursuing but who, given a particular set of future circumstances, could conceivably become the lawful object of pursuit at a future time, the man/woman is NOT a lawful object of pursuit. However, to the extent that there is reason to think about possible future contingencies in which he/she might become a lawful object of pursuit, it might be permissible to give very limited consideration to that possibility, though not to think about it for the sheer pleasure of doing so.
For example, to offer an even more remote if less macabre version of these penultimate scenarios, consider the case of a perfectly healthy one-income family with a homemaker mom caring for a number of young children. Both spouses are concerned for the welfare of their children should anything happen to either or both of them, and they have made provision, in the event that both parents should be killed, that the children should go to the care of responsible, believing families.
But it's also reasonable to give some practical thought to questions such as, what if only the wife were to be killed? Neither spouse wants the children to go to daycare, and so the wife would want the children to have a new mother in due season (people do this all the time).
Within the context of giving practical consideration to that contingency, a husband might reasonably give limited thought to what his prospects in such a scenario might be, what he might be likely to do if his wife were to be killed, including whom among the women he knows he might consider as a hypothetial prospective brides. And such practical considerations once again could include whom he does or doesn't find attractive.
Because he may not regard any other woman as a lawful object of his pursuit, and because he owes fidelity of heart and mind as well as body to his wife, the husband must very sharply limit his consideration of this subject, and absolutely refrain from indulging in consideration of women in his vicinity as hypothetical future brides for the pleasure of doing so (in contrast to the groom-to-be who is free to contemplate his betrothed as his future bride for the pleasure of doing so).
Whatever conclusions the married man may arrive at regarding who might or might not make a reasonable hypothetical future candidate in the event that he should be widowed, having arrived at those conclusions he must put the subject aside, and not return to it simply to enjoy the thought. To do so would be to foster an attachment that one has no business fostering, not to mention giving undue consideration to a macabre hypothetical scenario.
In the case of the husband with the terminally ill wife who is dying, I would say that he might reasonably give more serious practical attention to the subject than the man with the healthy wife, but he too owes his wife fidelity of heart and mind as long as she lives, especially in view of her dire straits which require the greatest level of commitment and support he can offer. He should not begin to think like a single man by allowing himself to begin to foster hopeful attachments to other women until this is a practical possibility for him.
In Roman Catholicism there is the case of a couple whose marriage is undergoing tribunal to determine its validity. Unfortunately, this effectively means the couple is already civilly divorced, but there is in Church law a legal principle that marriage has the benefit of law, which essentially means that one is presumed married until proved otherwise. Therefore, until the tribunal rules, the parties must consider themselves bound to one another, and are no more free to foster attachments to third parties than are any other married couples. In Evangelicalism, one simply should not “jump ships” or is free to enter into another relationship by “fostering attachments” until sometime after their divorce.
How's that?
Brandon "Jesus is coming! Hide the Porn!"--[b]Seen on a T-shirt at local Mall.[/b]
"The heart of the matter is the scandalous failure to live what we preach."--Ron Sider, CT Interview April 2005 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  trey dogg Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003 Total Posts : 26 | Posted 4/29/2005 2:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | Selah said...trey dogg said... If I may add something about the masturbation topic...
A situation was proposed in my Psychology class. Say there is a husband and wife. The husband is in the military and is sent overseas. He has no way of fulfilling his sexual needs, so he masturbates. Instead of using pornography or images of other women, he uses his wife.
At first, this made sense for me to think that, yeah, I guess that would be okay. But the thing is that the image of the man's wife is still a fantasy: something not real, something not authentic... simply an image of what the man wishes a sexual experience with his wife would be. To me, in a way, it would be no better than looking at pornography. The act of masturbation is not authentic sexuality (perhaps with an exception of a mutual experience between husband and wife). Hi Trey Dogg, my quick response to your post would be something like "if that were MY husband I guess I would want him to m  to images of me" See, one person's non-real, non-authentic, fantasy-image is another persons real, authentic, re-presentation of the actual thing. In this case the image is the memory of the wife. I don't agree that it's no better than looking at pornography. I think it's much better. He is merely representing his wife to himself internally because he misses her physical company. He has sexual needs and he is married to this person... so, why not REmind himself of her and enjoy thinking about her while he is away. In my view, this kind of thing keeps them connected (you can bet she has him on the mind too  )... so... yep, that's what I think... blessings and love, selah
I won't judge a person for it, but i still don't think it's right and I personally would question or challenge the person. I'm not trying to be an uptight christian paddlewhacker about the topic... just stating what my convictions are.
[quote]Trey, what would you say, then, of those who leave their wifes when they do their military duties? Wouldn't the bit about not defrauding one another in 1 Cor. 7 have implications if your take on "M" is correct?
Are you under the assumption that I feel that the husband in the military is right for masturbating? | | Back to Top | | |
  |  JEE Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2004 Total Posts : 1466 | Posted 4/29/2005 10:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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