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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!




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   Posted 5/9/2005 9:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Meph:

My gut response is that it would be pointless to make that kind of distinction practically. The Jewish faith is largely a story of a PEOPLE whose very cultural identity is linked to their Jewish heritage. No one is saying that Luther would have validated the ethnic cleansing element of all this. Not at all. What it being said is that it cannot be denied that Luther's anti-semitism in some real way CONTRIBUTED to the anti-semitism seen later in Germany.

 

I pretty much agree with what you said here.  The distinction seemed to me to be a bit awkward when I heard it, but interesting nonetheless. (Perhaps awkward because I’d never heard that distinction before.) But it is clear that Hitler quoted a fair amount of Luther’s stuff to support his propaganda.  One thing I’d like to throw out there is the possibility of the surrounding cultural influences on Luther as well since there was already quite a bit of negative religious/cultural discrimination going on in Luther’s time as well.  Does this remedy everything Luther said? No, absolutely not, but I do think it’s still important to keep the historical/cultural influences in mind when considering what Luther wrote.  The question is (and I don’t really have an answer) suppose Luther time-traveled to 1933, would he have retracted what he wrote (while still carrying the cultural influences of the 1500’s/1600’s)? 

 --------------------------------------

 

I do think this would be something very interesting to talk about. How about you give us some more information to chew on with this?

 

I’ll look around for stuff that would help in this.  I made a lot of stops at the library and can’t even remember all the materials I looked at.  But the biggest question I have right now is what the heck led up to the Deutsche Christen?  I’ll have to go back and read up on some of the letters I have.  I have my notes somewhere, but I vaguely recall that there may have been some battle between some sort of “liberal theology” offshoot from Schleiermacher (which, as far as I remember, influenced the Oxford Group Movement), pietism, and a growing call to “unite the churches”.  When I read some of this stuff, I couldn’t help but see some parallels in relation to the church today. 

 

But I am a bit unclear of what exactly this “liberal theology” was/is.  It has something to do with experience trumps doctrine I think.  I understand it was also some sort of response to Kant in Schleiermacher's time.  It seems similar to the “faith” movements we see today (all heart and no head), the calls for a grand revival, and the "can't we all just get along?" part of it.  The Oxford Group Movement didn't stand up against the Nazi regime, but instead allowed some well-known Nazi officials to join their group.  Anyway, after searching for stuff on the internet, here’s part of an article I just came across that seems somewhat balanced in it’s take of what happened:

 

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles_print.php?article_id=4370

Once arrived at the Chancellery, Hitler faced an awful lot of opposition to either defeat or co-opt: the two major Churches, the nobility, the army, the Socialists, the Communists, rival corporatists, and so on. After Hindenburg’s death in 1934, he and his party rapidly pursued a policy of Gleichsaltung --- “Coordination.” What this meant was that all of the various interests in the State must be made either to fit into the NSDAP’s program, or else eliminated. In piecemeal fashion, this was achieved.

As for Christianity it was the Protestants, due to their lack of organization, who were a bit easier to tackle --- the more so since, prior to 1918, the Protestant Landeskirchen had functioned more or less as departments of the State, with each Evangelical territorial King, Grand Duke, or Prince functioning as Summus Episcopus --- “Highest Bishop,” of his own Church (the Catholic Kings of Saxony and Bavaria were of course left out of this arrangement; the imminent ascension of a Catholic to the throne of Württemberg was one of the major pre-War questions in 1914). Thus, the creation of an overarching “German Christian” Church under Reichsbischof Mueller was not without precedent. The German Christians who were able to reconcile their faith with the tenets of the party were able to do so quite easily, as it was presented to them as “updating” their religion, bringing it into tune with the spirit of the age: in a word, making it relevant. There was, to be sure, a “Confessing Church” which rejected these efforts. But in most cases these were folk who had held to such notions as the inerrancy of scripture before Hitler’s rise. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was typical of such.

As for the Catholic Church, this was a harder nut to crack. For one thing, the Catholic Center Party had remained a powerful factor when the other parties collapsed at the ballot box (an election map of the elections in 1932 and 1933 shows that while most Socialist, Liberal, Conservative, and even a few Communist districts eventually went NSDAP, the Center’s territory remained almost intact). But Hitler went over their heads, signing a concordat with Pope Pius XI in return for securing the Pontiff’s order to the Catholic Center Party to disband. Mind you, this was not because of any love of Hitler on Pius’ part: rather, he was keen to “get the Church out of politics” whenever possible. Hence he had ordered the Popolari in Italy similarly to dissolve after Mussolini’s promises, and ordered the Cristeros in Mexico to lay down their arms and cease their rebellion against the U.S.-backed PRI government. In all three cases, the result was the same: disaster --- a precedent future peace-minded prelates might take into account. There were of course some Catholic collaborators: Fr. Karl Rahner, S.J., (later to win fame of a more clearly theological sort) was the only Catholic priest granted freedom to travel throughout the War --- all others had to report their movements.

It'll take a couple of days to re-cap what I found (it was a while ago). 

 

And John, thanks for the info on the book.  I'll look into that as well.


 

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JEE
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   Posted 5/10/2005 10:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Based on Luther's response to The Peasant Rebellion and the Anabaptist movement, it does not seem far-fetched at all to say he would have possibly approved of ethnic cleansing (or, perhaps more appropriately speaking, religious cleansing). The same of course holds true for Roman Catholicism by and large. I think it all can be quite reasonably traced back to the Augustinian theology/philosophy that undergirds both RC'ism and Lutheranism.


May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE


http://www.revivaltheology.cjb.net

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Similitude
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   Posted 5/11/2005 7:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John: The same of course holds true for Roman Catholicism by and large. I think it all can be quite reasonably traced back to the Augustinian theology/philosophy that undergirds both RC'ism and Lutheranism.

Jeff: John, did Augustine sanction coercion, or what?


wjs

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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!




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   Posted 5/13/2005 1:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I’ve done some research again and I’ll just state some of the parallels I’ve noticed between the DC (Deutsche Christen) and today.

 

Now of course getting to the point of forming the DC was a process and I’m still looking into that, but what I gather from just the little bit of research I’ve done is that there was a progressive call to nationalism (in large part because of the difficulties imposed by the Treaty of Versailles) that really started taking steam in the mid-1920’s.  There was already quite a lot of anti-Semitism going on there rooted in history.  The main thing of the DC was to bind together Christianity (as they interpreted it) and Nationalism (“Nazi” actually stands for Nationalsozialist- a blend of nationalism and socialism- from the title Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterspartei (Worker’s Party)).  One thing I’ve noticed in a couple of articles I’ve read is it seems there was a bit of the “victim mentality”.  What motivates people to move or take action to fight?  I just came up with a couple thoughts: victim mentality, just cause, hatred/revenge.

 

There was the “this is God’s country” and a call to win back the country.  “Germany is our Mission – Christ is our Strength”.  In the 24th point of the NSDAP “Program” was:

“24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.”

So here, we have a combination of a growing sense of nationalism, religiosity, and racism… quite a dangerous combo.  I’d say nationalism in itself isn’t bad.  Being religious in itself isn’t bad.  (Being racist definitely is.)  However, the actual concept of “nationality” didn’t develop until fairly recently… around the 1700s or 1800s as far as I can recall.

 

Another issue I learned about with the DC relates to biblical interpretation.  They apparently strove to rid the Bible of anything “Jewish”.  From one of the articles I just read, “Since the early 1930s, German Christian (DC) attacks on Jewish elements in Christianity had targeted the Old Testament.  Incensed by Nazi and neopagan charges that Christianity was simply disguised Judaism, German Christians were willing and even eager to prove their anti-Semitism by jettisoning the first half of their Bibles.” (Chaplaincy and the Christian Movement Church History, Sep97, Vol. 66 Issue 3, p522)

 

The parallel I see here is how there are groups nowadays that go for the strict Biblical inerrancy (where every jot and tiddle and dash is directly from God) versus the groups that would take a more liberal interpretation (say, that some books are made up stories, like Jonah for example), versus groups that make a sharp divide between the Old Testament and the New Testament (believing the OT is irrelevant to today because of being under the new covenant).  Strictly speaking, I believe there are problems with all those forms of interpretation… but that’s for another post some other time. 

Anyway, that’s all I have to say about that… for now. (Just watched Forrest Gump cheers )

 

Sorry this is a bit long...


 

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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!




Date Joined Dec 2004
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   Posted 5/13/2005 1:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey John,

I'm not very familiary with Augustinian theology, so how does it lead back to "religious cleansing"? I'm kinda curious about that because it seems that Augustine's writings had quite a significant impact on Luther, right? I'm just barely getting acquainted with church history. Something I wish I knew more about... but I guess I can always start now!

Darn, now just passed by. Well, there's always! "Fun with indexicals"... a bird told me dat phrase. Ok, maybe I'm the only one laughing here. That's ok, right?


 

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Laika
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   Posted 5/13/2005 7:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Violin for God said...

I’ve done some research again and I’ll just state some of the parallels I’ve noticed between the DC (Deutsche Christen) and today.

If you're interested in the roots of Nazism, the volkisch movement, theosophy, etc. this book is one of the better ones:
 
 
As for parallels, the volkisch movement with it's return to the old gods of the germanic people was mirrored later in the hippy movement and their return to many of the old celtic and pre-christian religions.
 
But the book may be overkill for your purposes.
 


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Starkman
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   Posted 5/13/2005 8:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Isaac, Berkshire Assistant Professor of Advent Christian Studies at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Massachusetts, has presented a series of lectures which may be hears at www.biblicaltraining.org at(http://www.biblicaltraining.org/class.php?class=CH643#.
 
He has made the point, as does the Preface of the first link Meph has given us, that it was not all that uncommon to use what we would consider harsh language when refering to your opponent. I think, too, that many of the quotes for the links Meph provided are not anti-semitic as much as they are anti-what-the-Jews-stand-for. As the Jews had more of an interest than anyone else to continually disbelieve the Gospel, and, like Paul, look foward to the destruction of their enemies, it is expected that Luther, and others, would speak harshly against them.
 
I really think we need to cut some slack with regard to all the Luther quotes, as if they are directed at the Jews just because they are Jews, or as if they are some particular people who are meant to be chewed up and spit out just because.
 
Starkman


My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?"  Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?

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JEE
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   Posted 5/14/2005 5:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jefscott said...
John: The same of course holds true for Roman Catholicism by and large. I think it all can be quite reasonably traced back to the Augustinian theology/philosophy that undergirds both RC'ism and Lutheranism.

Jeff: John, did Augustine sanction coercion, or what?


Hi Jeff,

Yes, as a matter of fact he did, during the Donatist controversy. Augustine at first abhorred the idea of state coercion of heretics "back into the fold" of Catholicism. However, by 405 A.D., he was taking Christ's words, "compel them to come in" to sanction the coercion of heretics back into the Catholic Church.

This all is entirely consistent with the deterministic philosophy/theology he came to believe in and defend about the same time. Earlier in his ecclesiastical career, Augustine had taught views in agreement with the Fathers who had preceded him, specifically that man had free will. Scholars have observed that it seems his controversy with Pelagius especially tended to cause Augustine to react in the direction of determinism.

John


May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE


http://www.revivaltheology.cjb.net

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Similitude
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   Posted 5/14/2005 7:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, John. I was not aware of that. But what was the context of Christ's words, "compel them to come in?" Was that a parable?


wjs

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JEE
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   Posted 5/16/2005 10:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the original context indicates Christ meant to say, for those who would say "We're not worthy to come," compel them by making it clear that the Father of the Bridegroom really DOES want everyone to come in, not just those one would EXPECT He would want (the ones who had been previously invited and spurned the invitation; i.e., those of his chosen people, the Jews, who rejected the call).


May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE


http://www.revivaltheology.cjb.net

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Similitude
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   Posted 5/16/2005 11:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, John. I figured there was probably a relatively simple contextual explanation.


wjs

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Truth Aficionado
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   Posted 6/7/2005 10:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Violin for God said...

Have you seen the movie/documentary “Bonhoeffer”?  (I rented it from Blockbuster, one of our local video stores.  Perhaps you may be interested in looking into that?).  Very interesting documentary.  There was a part in it that talked about Luther and his “role” in the Holocaust.  It’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but from what I can recollect, there was a German theologian that discussed Luther in it and made some kind of distinction between “anti-semitism” and “anti-Jewism or anti-Judaism” (I think that’s what it was called… again, it’s been a while). Hitler practiced the “anti-semitism” which was geared towards extermination of the people.  The theologian in the video proposed that Luther was actually “anti-Jewist” or some term related like that.  Luther strived and strived to convert the Jews to Christianity to no avail and toward the end of his life became very frustrated.  (Again from what I remember…) He wanted to get rid of the “religion” because there was something stopping them from converting, but he didn’t intend for this to turn into a racial thing (“anti-Semitism) where people would be killed for being genetically related to Jews. 

 

Hello VFG,

Thanks for hipping me to the Bonhoeffer movie/documentary. cheers  I found a diamond in the rough at my local corner Blockbusters. 

 

The movie interviewed two people about Luther, each having a different perspective.    A theologian named Christian Gremmels conveyed a younger Luther as expressing friendly statements about the Jews.  Luther placed hope that Jews would convert to Christianity, but when it didn’t happen, he became much more radical.  The later writings of Luther reflect this “anti-Semitism and the suggestion towards persecution of the Jews in Germany.  The second interview was with Bishop Wolfgang Huber. Huber tried to formulate a distinction between “Anti-Judaism” and “Anti-Semitism”, with Luther holding to the former position, stemming strictly from a conflict of faith between Judaism and Christianity.  

 

I would highly recommend the movie.  Interesting were the travels of Bonhoeffer.  He went to India and met with Gandhi about the passive non-violence resistance movement.  He made two trips to New York. His first trip he studied at Union Theological Seminary under Reinhold Niebuhr. Early on Dietrich criticized Niebuhr for his teaching about ethics and social issues, but Niebuhr's influence on these issues could be seen in later writings by Bonhoeffer.

 

Now listen to this, Franklyn Fisher brought him down to Harlem and turned him on to the music of Abyssinian Baptist Church.  Yes indeed, Reverend Adam Clayton Powell, Sr. and Gospel Music. The choir music was glorious and the organ thunderous and Bonhoeffer fell in love with it.  Most importantly, this is where he learned about the social injustice of blacks in America and developed a deep compassion for their plight. He later carried this same compassion over to the plight of Jew’s in Germany, and ultimately died as a martyr doing so.  

 

Thanks,

 

Mark


Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity.

Post Edited (sparknheart) : 6/7/2005 11:22:29 AM (GMT-5)

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   Posted 6/8/2005 12:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
JEE said... 
It still remains a mystery to me how the same author could have written both The Cost of Discipleship and Ethics. But in any case, I highly recommend the above abridged edition of Bonhoeffer's writings. 
Hello John,
Have you seen the Bonhoeffer documentary?  I thought the movie did a good job of depicting his inner struggle regarding ethics.
 
Blessings,
 
Mark


Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity.

Post Edited (sparknheart) : 6/8/2005 12:31:17 PM (GMT-5)

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JEE
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   Posted 6/8/2005 1:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Mark,

Haven't seen the Bonhoeffer documentary as yet, but I do intend to when I can.

Blessings,

John


May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE


http://www.revivaltheology.cjb.net

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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!




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   Posted 6/22/2005 1:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Mark,

Yeah, I thought it was interesting how the whole civil rights movement over here inspired him to carry that on over in Germany. It seems that the visit here was a spiritual and moral revival for him personally. It was also interesting to learn about his relationship with his whole family through the ordeal and how they were supportive of him.

Thanks for the summary of the movie. It's been a while since we saw it, so your summary reminds me a lot of what was discussed in the documentary.


 

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