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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
|  Posted 5/7/2005 6:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | | I'd REALLY like to discuss this movie "Soylent Green" I just saw it last night. Fascinating!
Has anyone here seen it? If so, what did you think?
For those who haven't seen it, this is what it is...
If you don't mind having the whole plot revealed to you...there's...
I specifically want to talk about morality, euthanasia, and hard-times theology. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/8/2005 1:15 PM (GMT -6) | | | Saw the movie a few times way back when (Tom and I being old fogies remember this movie as a youngin!).
What's on your mind, Meph, about the movie?
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/9/2005 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman:
What's on your mind, Meph, about the movie?
One thing I wanted to discuss was "Home". The method of suicide/euthanasia that was in the movie. For those who haven't seen the movie, basically they took you and, from what I understand, gave you the best last 20 minutes of your life. They would put the room in your favorite color, play your favorite music, and project images all around you of whatever you wanted. (There may have been other things that they did, but that's all that was shown in the movie) At the beginning of the 20 mins, you were given an injection that would cause you to fall asleep unto death. A very, very peaceful end. Especially in contrast to the horrible living conditions depicted in the film.
Question:
What would y'all think about this type of euthansia in that situation? Is it wrong? If so, WHY is it wrong?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/9/2005 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Perhaps more dramatically: you KNOW you're going to die from cancer, and you'd like to go out peacefully...save yourself and everyone else the (unnecessary) pain, suffering and torment. As Christians, do we have an obligation to trust in God's healing ability at all costs, even the cost of the mounting pain, suffering and torment?
I, for one, do not believe that it is a heaven-or-hell issue if one takes the euthanasia way out; it is a relationship issue. But I'll wait to comment (and think) on this issue until others pipe in.
(Oh, and Logan's Run rocked!)
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiressque
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Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/11/2005 10:16 PM (GMT -6) | | I just re-registered...what happened to the old pink board (guess I haven't been here in awhile).
Seen this?
http://eathufu.com/
Okay, this is only tangentially related to Soylent Green, but I just discovered it yesterday and was reading about the Donner Party (talk about one for the problem of evil!). Anyway, it got me thinking about hard times theology when I read this quote, "After enduring another two days stranded in the snow and suffering from the pangs of severe hunger, Patrick Dolan first made the argument that they resort to eating one of their party so that the others might survive."
And I was seriously beset with questions about the ethics of this! Yes, not terribly relevant I know.
But....I keep struggling with finding a consistent theology that will hold, regardless of the circumstances, and can't find one that doesn't seem to lead me into some sort of relativism.
As to Mephi's question about "Home"...I'm honestly stumped on the euthanasia question.
I recently gave birth and had a horror of an experience (I reacted terribly to the Pitocin they gave me, my contractions were at the maximum strength for nearly seven hours, I wasn't progressing, but I wasn't able to have any pain killers..long story) and I can honestly say that I was begging God to either:
1. Get the baby out or
2. Kill me
And I am not joking!!! It was absolutely horrific beyond words, I even had symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress afterward because it was so awful and in the amount of pain I was in I believed I was in fact dying.
But I remember looking into my mom's eyes with sheer panic in between contractions and begging her with whimpering to please do something, anything to make it stop. I cannot believe it would have been merciful of God to let me continue in that state indefinitely. And if there was no other way to get my baby delivered, I can tell you I would have definitely asked to be euthanized. And I never would have thought pain could be so terrible as to drive away the will to live to quickly!
So what does that say about euthanasia? I don't know for sure. But maybe I can't believe there aren't some circumstances in which it wouldn't be justifiable.
~E+
PS The baby was delivered perfectly healthy!Post Edited (Empiressque) : 7/11/2005 10:19:03 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/12/2005 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | (In my best Valley Girl voice...)
Like...like...Oh MY GAAAWD...I...like...can't BELIEVE it...
E M P I R E S S !!!!
Lady, it has been WAAAAAY too long! How in the world are ya!?!
Congrats on the new kid! YAAAAAY!!!  I can't believe it's been that long...
Some things...
Empiresque:
But I remember looking into my mom's eyes with sheer panic in between contractions and begging her with whimpering to please do something, anything to make it stop. I cannot believe it would have been merciful of God to let me continue in that state indefinitely. And if there was no other way to get my baby delivered, I can tell you I would have definitely asked to be euthanized. And I never would have thought pain could be so terrible as to drive away the will to live to quickly!
Hmmmm...now, think about that state your were in, E. Some people believe that God would just let someone languish in a state like that, emotionally AND physically, for eternity. Even if God had the genuine ability to do otherwise. So...uh...how's that sound to YOU? Heh.
*************************
Empiresque:
So what does that say about euthanasia? I don't know for sure. But maybe I can't believe there aren't some circumstances in which it wouldn't be justifiable.
I can't see how that euthanasia (and suicide) can't be justifiable in some extenuating circumstances. ESPECIALLY to anyone who believes in a God who allows us the immense freedom to utterly destroy ourselves via our own choices.
Glad you brought all this back up. I do wanna talk about this some more.
It is SOO good to see you.
Later,
PS:
For those of y'all who don't know, Empiresque was a frequenter with us a bit back in the day. REALLY cool people. Smart. Witty. Passionate. Insightful. Open-minded. Theologically astute. Great poster. Plus she's got a heart for people and ministry like you wouldn't believe. Her man's a really lucky guy! 
PSS:
I'm pretty much a Christian universalist now, E. Have been going this way for some time now. Who'd have thunk it, right? HA!
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Empiressque
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Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/12/2005 9:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey there Mephi! Yes, it's been a long time! Thanks for the congratulations, my little girl is amazing! 11 weeks old now:
Meph said...
Hmmmm...now, think about that state your were in, E. Some people believe that God would just let someone languish in a state like that, emotionally AND physically, for eternity. Even if God had the genuine ability to do otherwise. So...uh...how's that sound to YOU? Heh.
Oh myyyy...I hadn't thought of it in terms of hell before. Hmmm, there is NO WAY the God I know would allow that kind of torture to one of his beloved children long term. I always felt that, if there is a hell (and I believe there may be a temporary one), it is not one of physical pain, but more of a place to sort out one's soul issues.
One of my friends said she had been praying for me throughout my labor and had this vivid image of Jesus sitting next to me, going through all of it with me. That is really the kind of image I see of God as revealed in Jesus.
Mephi said...
I can't see how that euthanasia (and suicide) can't be justifiable in some extenuating circumstances. ESPECIALLY to anyone who believes in a God who allows us the immense freedom to utterly destroy ourselves via our own choices.
Oh, and this is scary...the idea that we have the ability to destroy ourselves by our own choices. But...does that mean you're not a determinist anymore?!
And...a universalist??! Definitely need to catch up! I want to hear how that happened.
But the euthanasia issue raises so many related issues...and I always wonder how to avoid a slippery slope once started on that path....
More later,
~E+ | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/13/2005 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | I think, at least one thing here, that as God has not condemned someone to hell just because they have killed someone (as in self-defense)—something that was never supposed to even be an issue in an unfallen state—neither does God condemn because one kills one's self. It's bound to happen, and it's not a sin unto eternal damnation. I think, though, the issue is that none of these kinds of things were ever what was supposed to happen. This kind of mayhem is simply not what God originally planned.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 7/13/2005 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | |
Meph Man said...(PS: For those of y'all who don't know, Empiresque was a frequenter with us a bit back in the day. REALLY cool people. Smart. Witty. Passionate. Insightful. Open-minded. Theologically astute. Great poster. Plus she's got a heart for people and ministry like you wouldn't believe. Her man's a really lucky guy!  ) And she has a pretty smile too...just like her baby! Yes, been wonder'n about this girl! You still in Michigan?
Meph Man said...
(I can't see how that euthanasia (and suicide) can't be justifiable in some extenuating circumstances.) Helmut Thelicke spoke about how none of us "does" ethics when it is not problematic. It is only in extreme situations that ethics is done in. That is, normally, we don't say, "Suicide" or "euthanasia" under "normal" circumstances. For example, at what point would we suggest that Miss E kill herself under the pain of child-birth? "Languishing in a state like that" doesn't seem reason enough for justifying suicide under THOSE circumstances because as long as her pain was, there have been people in similar pain for longer periods of time and there seems to be something amiss for allowing something at THAT TIME UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.
Though we did not finish the thread on the Sanctity of Life, it would seem to me that there is a point at which personhood degenerates to such an extent that the PERSON is IRRETRIEVABLY "GONE" and under such circumstances one can justify suicide or euthanasia.
Having said that, I think the "natural law" philosophical base is coming more and more under criticism and is being replaced by a "philosophy of personhood" and as such, such moral acts that we thought just a decade or so ago as being evil are now viewed as acts of mercy.
Brandon  Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 7/13/2005 8:00:25 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/14/2005 12:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Miss E:
Oh, and this is scary...the idea that we have the ability to destroy ourselves by our own choices. But...does that mean you're not a determinist anymore?!
And...a universalist??! Definitely need to catch up! I want to hear how that happened.
Catch up, we shall!
*********************************
Miss E:
But the euthanasia issue raises so many related issues...and I always wonder how to avoid a slippery slope once started on that path....
In my experience, sometimes the only way to avoid the slippery slope is to avoid taking the path...at least as far as consistency. And, stubborn me, I just don't know how to do that. (I know this is partly why I'm universalist now!)
**********************************
Starkman:
I think, at least one thing here, that as God has not condemned someone to hell just because they have killed someone (as in self-defense)—something that was never supposed to even be an issue in an unfallen state—neither does God condemn because one kills one's self. It's bound to happen, and it's not a sin unto eternal damnation. I think, though, the issue is that none of these kinds of things were ever what was supposed to happen. This kind of mayhem is simply not what God originally planned.
I truly do think that the emergence of sin (and with it, death, "hell" and violence) was seen as an inevitable, yet acceptable eventuality. Like I've argued before, it's patently ludicrous to believe that the infinitely intelligent God could actually believe in a scope so grand as having a universe populated with BILLIONS of free-willed beings...that not ONE being would ever sin. Again, that would be like a car manufacturer actually providing automobiles for BILLIONS of people...truly not expecting any of those people to ever to get into any kind of fender-bender! No way. Though it's possible that no one would ever have a fender-bender, it would be statistically inevitable that something like that would happen at least once.
Same way with sin, dude. Think about it.
********************************
Miss E:
I'm just south of Michigan now, in that little state below it that the Presidential candidates ignored. Am doing the single mom thing (husband decided he wasn't ready for fatherhood and ran), but I've learned what a wonderful Father God is in a whole new way.
Sum-a-bicsh!! So sorry bout that, yo. Extracting foot from mouth, now. Sheesh... 
*********************************
Miss E:
I'm interested in this concept of personhood though..and how and when it might cease to exist. This would be a whole new thread, but ever since I saw a special on Siamest twins...it's really really messed with my thinking in terms of personhood. In some extreme cases, there is only a portion of a twin attached to the other twin....like just a part of their head and brain! Do they posses the quality of personhood or not?! What makes a person a person?
www.conjoined-twins.i-p.com
Fairly graphic pictures in some places. Warning.
Ah, yes. The more we find out about human physiology and psychology, the murkier the waters, right? One of the things I think about a lot is the significance of "conversions" As "selves", we exist on multiple levels psychologically. Just because a person becomes an adherent to a certain religion does NOT mean for a moment that they TRULY have that belief in the "deep structure" of their thinking. If God is such that God can truly knows 1) how human psychology works 2) how socialization and human psychology interact and 2) ALL thought processes (conscious, pre-conscious, and unconscious) that motivate our lives...it would seem to me that God Godself would KNOW the virtual morass that this creates in the form of necessarily partial INTERPRETATIONS of our fallen world that exist in our frontal cortex. And SURELY, God would consider this when dealing with us for our eternal destinies!
What do you think?
*******************************
Miss E: (emphasis mine)
But I agree with Stark that none of these things are supposed to happen. Yet they do. And it seems like so often we're stuck choosing between the lesser of evils, as opposed to a clear cut right versus wrong. And I think God works with humans on that level throughout scripture and allows, even commands lesser evils (like OT wars) sometimes.
Oh, yes! I completely agree. In fact, I think you missed it, but we had a discussion about God's COMPLICITY in certain fallen aspects of our world. Basically, what I was asserting is this: insofar as God is willing to work with human beings, structures and institutions in a fallen context, sometimes all God can do is choose the least of all potential evils...and in doing so is willing to "get his hands dirty" as it were. To be COMPLICIT with certain evils in order to bring about the best possible good. Instead of God being so concerned about not sullying God's hands with us, God is, in some real way, IN the mud with us, helping us get clean by taking some of the mud upon Godself. You would have been surprised how much disagreement some people tried to give me with that. Ha!
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/14/2005 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph:
I truly do think that the emergence of sin (and with it, death, "hell" and violence) was seen as an inevitable, yet acceptable eventuality. Like I've argued before, it's patently ludicrous to believe that the infinitely intelligent God could actually believe in a scope so grand as having a universe populated with BILLIONS of free-willed beings...that not ONE being would ever sin. Again, that would be like a car manufacturer actually providing automobiles for BILLIONS of people...truly not expecting any of those people to ever to get into any kind of fender-bender! No way. Though it's possible that no one would ever have a fender-bender, it would be statistically inevitable that something like that would happen at least once.
Starkman:
Oh, I agree. It's virtually certain that sooner or later someone would screw up and bring sin into the world. But that still does not mean it is God's will or God's desire that it happen. I still maintain that this whole mess wasn't supposed to be (slightly different than wasn't supposed to happen). I still think the issue of love given freely to God from a sentient being is a important here. For God to have started with compatibilistic love in a sentient being would have missed something. As I've argued for in the past, starting with compatibilistic love with sentient beings is not the highest form of expressional love. That means something in the equation.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 7/14/2005 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Miss E,
Sorry to hear about the marriage thingy. That sucks. And yes, motherhood can be overwhelming at times. And just think, you only have the one child! By the way, you did not tell us her name. She sure is beautiful! And no, I wouldn't suggest when you should kill yourself, but only hypothetically. The reason why is that we still need to meet for lunch, so don't be doing something crazy! Besides, I LOVE babies! AFTER that you can do whatever you want!
I am in agreement with Meph Man to Stark on the eventuality of sin. Plantinga speaks about this. I'm also in agreement with Meph Man on the murky waters of physiology and psychology of the self. Which is to say that I don't think WE can say when the person ceases to exist and where they are but a "living zombie." This is why the "Million Dollar Baby" was such an interesting movie despite many of it's flaws. Maggie Fitzgerald played by Hillary Swank is, visually portrayed day after day, descending into this state of despair--the Psalmist's "mirey pit". CT Magazine's Jeffrey Overstreet who is an acquaintance of mine, said:
"The final actions of Frankie and Maggie, while understandable and in some ways appealing, demonstrate a failure of hope, a lack of faith, a collapse of courage, and the loss of an opportunity for God to work wonders. Frankie would say he just "stepped into the punch," but I say he 'threw in the towel.'"
and
"Eastwood and his storytelling colleagues Toole and Haggis manipulate the events to try and win sympathy for their characters in this action. But there are plenty of details in the story that should show viewers the cost of such a decision, and that might even suggest there could have been a more meaningful and fruitful decision than the one made here. As it plays out in the film, the act of euthanasia reduces the victim to the level of a dog, mentioned earlier in the film, that was put out of its misery. That seems, to this reviewer, to be a pessimistic and dispiriting decision on the part of the storytellers, one that leads an otherwise excellent film to an unethical conclusion."
But does it? I'm thinking otherwise.
Brandon | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiressque
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Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/14/2005 10:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph said...
If God is such that God can truly knows 1) how human psychology works 2) how socialization and human psychology interact and 2) ALL thought processes (conscious, pre-conscious, and unconscious) that motivate our lives...it would seem to me that God Godself would KNOW the virtual morass that this creates in the form of necessarily partial INTERPRETATIONS of our fallen world that exist in our frontal cortex. And SURELY, God would consider this when dealing with us for our eternal destinies! What do you think?
I couldn't have said it better myself (really, I could not say it that well). But I've been holding to this concept for a long time, albeit with less clarity than you wrote out, so thank you. This is also a good response to the ongoing question, "What about those who have never heard about Jesus?" I often respond, "Well, what about those who have heard about him, but it's a really warped portrayal of him and so they've rejected him?" Because, in a very real sense, all we have are less than perfect ideas about God and Christ due to a complexity of reasons (context, psychology, etc.... as you said), and surely God must take that into consideration. That's why I believe that one of the primary reasons people reject perfect love (eg God), is because something went wrong...either with their wiring or their interpretation of God/religion, or a negative experience...or whatever. And, God knows that and loves us anyway...and is certainly capable of taking all things into account, when it counts.
Oh..and those photos are incredible...mind boggling to me though. Where does one person start and the other end in terms of personhood? One special said that conjoined twins often know what the other is thinking for instance.
I should try and find the discsussion on God's complicity...sounds exactly what I was referring to. I think I've missed so much on the Board that I'll probably end up repeating all kinds of things already said. Heh.
And BBC:
I haven't seen Million Dollar Baby yet, I didn't even know the plot! I MUST see it now!
I wonder how far away you are from mid Ohio now..hmmm. Oh, and the baby's name is Charlotte True.  She's amazing.
~E | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/15/2005 4:23 PM (GMT -6) | | MephEternal said...I'd REALLY like to discuss this movie "Soylent Green" I just saw it last night. Fascinating! Has anyone here seen it? If so, what did you think? For those who haven't seen it, this is what it is... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/ If you don't mind having the whole plot revealed to you...there's... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green I specifically want to talk about morality, euthanasia, and hard-times theology.
I'd be glad to talk about morality and euthansia, but you lost me with the horror/thriller flick; I can't stomach those. BBB, what is hard-times theology?
Jo-Anne
If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/15/2005 4:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Starkman said...
Perhaps more dramatically: you KNOW you're going to die from cancer, and you'd like to go out peacefully...save yourself and everyone else the (unnecessary) pain, suffering and torment. As Christians, do we have an obligation to trust in God's healing ability at all costs, even the cost of the mounting pain, suffering and torment?
I, for one, do not believe that it is a heaven-or-hell issue if one takes the euthanasia way out; it is a relationship issue. But I'll wait to comment (and think) on this issue until others pipe in.
(Oh, and Logan's Run rocked!)
Starkman
There are far too many variables for this to be black and white, but having said that, I don't believe in euthanasia, and having said that, my heart goes out to those who suffer incredibly and long for a peaceful ending. Nowadays, with medical technology, I believe there is not so much suffering as there is a lack of a quality of life. We do need to leave room for healing and many who suffer would give up hope too easily in the middle of it. I agree with you Stark. I believe that it is primarily about relationship, with God, if people have a relationship with Him, with family and others ... Tough topic ...
Jo-Anne
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/15/2005 4:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Empiressque said...
I just re-registered...what happened to the old pink board (guess I haven't been here in awhile).
Seen this?
http://eathufu.com/
Okay, this is only tangentially related to Soylent Green, but I just discovered it yesterday and was reading about the Donner Party (talk about one for the problem of evil!). Anyway, it got me thinking about hard times theology when I read this quote, "After enduring another two days stranded in the snow and suffering from the pangs of severe hunger, Patrick Dolan first made the argument that they resort to eating one of their party so that the others might survive."
And I was seriously beset with questions about the ethics of this! Yes, not terribly relevant I know.
But....I keep struggling with finding a consistent theology that will hold, regardless of the circumstances, and can't find one that doesn't seem to lead me into some sort of relativism.
As to Mephi's question about "Home"...I'm honestly stumped on the euthanasia question.
I recently gave birth and had a horror of an experience (I reacted terribly to the Pitocin they gave me, my contractions were at the maximum strength for nearly seven hours, I wasn't progressing, but I wasn't able to have any pain killers..long story) and I can honestly say that I was begging God to either:
1. Get the baby out or
2. Kill me
And I am not joking!!! It was absolutely horrific beyond words, I even had symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress afterward because it was so awful and in the amount of pain I was in I believed I was in fact dying.
But I remember looking into my mom's eyes with sheer panic in between contractions and begging her with whimpering to please do something, anything to make it stop. I cannot believe it would have been merciful of God to let me continue in that state indefinitely. And if there was no other way to get my baby delivered, I can tell you I would have definitely asked to be euthanized. And I never would have thought pain could be so terrible as to drive away the will to live to quickly!
So what does that say about euthanasia? I don't know for sure. But maybe I can't believe there aren't some circumstances in which it wouldn't be justifiable.
~E+
PS The baby was delivered perfectly healthy!
Wow! Those of us who have gone through "typical" labour and delivery thought it was painful! I'm so glad your mom was there, and that you ended up with a healthy baby girl. No more Pitocin for you!
Jo-Anne
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/15/2005 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Empiressque said...Hey, thanks Stark and BBC. Good to "see" you guys.  I'm just south of Michigan now, in that little state below it that the Presidential candidates ignored. Am doing the single mom thing (husband decided he wasn't ready for fatherhood and ran), but I've learned what a wonderful Father God is in a whole new way. Of course at times have felt a bit:  (Okay, I'm just loving these "new" icons...we didn't have these before) BBC said...
at what point would we suggest that Miss E kill herself You wouldn't, would you! ;-) I'm interested in this concept of personhood though..and how and when it might cease to exist. This would be a whole new thread, but ever since I saw a special on Siamest twins...it's really really messed with my thinking in terms of personhood. In some extreme cases, there is only a portion of a twin attached to the other twin....like just a part of their head and brain! Do they posses the quality of personhood or not?! What makes a person a person? But I agree with Stark that none of these things are supposed to happen. Yet they do. And it seems like so often we're stuck choosing between the lesser of evils, as opposed to a clear cut right versus wrong. And I think God works with humans on that level throughout script ure and allows, even commands lesser evils (like OT wars) sometimes. ~E
E -- She's beautiful, and it takes a lot of courage (and a lot of energy) to be a mom, especially a single mom; I'll pray for you. From what I've heard so far, you have the respect of people here, and a wonderful heart. You're little girl is blessed to have a mom like that. I'm sorry about the Father; I hope he realizes what he's missing and comes to.
Jo-Anne
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