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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Hurricane Katrina Tragedy | Forum Quick Jump
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/3/2005 10:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | JEE:
Why aren't the reporters and political pundits attacking the mayor of New Orleans for not using schoolbuses to evacuate those who didn't have any other means of transportation?
Thought about that. It seems to me that before that could have happened there would have had to have been some SPECIFIC PLACE where all those people would have been dropped off...and taken care of. Obviously, the school buses couldn't have just taken the people just out of town and dropped them off at the city limits or something. I definitely agree it would have been VERY "common good" of the city, state, and federal leadership to have provided the school buses for the poorer people in lower areas to evacuate those who couldn't afford to get out. But MUCH MORE planning would have had to have gone into this to make it work. And I think that planning should have been done long before now. This does raise an important issue though. This type of evacuation plan seems to fall under Homeland Security's department, wouldn't it? Isn't it the job of this division to, in part, think about mass evacuation of urban areas in cases of disaster or terrorist attack?
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Dragon Chaser
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 9/3/2005 4:34 PM (GMT -6) | | This smells a little of the L.A. riots, relatively speaking. How many of these people are rejoicing over this hurricane as an ample opportunity to plunder the city of New Orleans? I had seen just as many happy faces pushing shopping carts full of electronics and pairs of $120 tennis shoes as I did sad and desperate faces. A police officer got shot in the head for heavens sake. How much easier could this had been if people tried to cooperate more?
You can make as many excuses as you want for anyone’s disposition; inevitably it always falls on the individual’s own fate. If you think it’s the “white devils” fault that they live in New Orleans and are poor, you are sadly mistaken. Everyone has a chance to move somewhere else, that's why they have section 8 and such.
People, you have two feet! Heed the warning! Don’t laugh at the face of death! Wake the hell up! White people are not the devil! Run for your life! I’m the poorest person I know of, personally. I’ve been unemployed for months now. Yes, not a penny to my name. If the news said a category 4 hurricane was coming my way, just out of self-preservation for my self and my immediate family, I would go to point B because point A is going to get annihilated. Even, animals are smart enough to do that! Call it instincts if you will.
Post Edited (Dragon Chaser) : 9/3/2005 4:37:38 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 9/3/2005 5:32 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Jabbor Gibson deserves a medal. NOT punishment. Here is ONE-COOL-CAT. He's a hero in my opinion.
Especially when you consider this...
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/4/2005 1:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Check this out...
Sept.2 video:
"Katrina: What the government knew"
msnbc.msn.com/id/9120777/
Damn.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/4/2005 7:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Viewpoint: New Orleans crisis shames US
By Matt Wells
BBC News, Los Angeles
At the end of an unforgettable week, one broadcaster on Friday bitterly encapsulated the sense of burning shame and anger that many American citizens are feeling.
Flood victims were left virtually to their own devices for days
The only difference between the chaos of New Orleans and a Third World disaster operation, he said, was that a foreign dictator would have responded better.
It has been a profoundly shocking experience for many across this vast country who, for the large part, believe the home-spun myth about the invulnerability of the American Dream.
The party in power in Washington is always happy to convey the impression of 50 states moving forward together in social and economic harmony towards a bigger and better America.
That is what presidential campaigning is all about.
But what the devastating consequences of Katrina have shown - along with the response to it - is that for too long now, the fabric of this complex and overstretched country, especially in states like Louisiana and Mississippi, has been neglected and ignored.
Borrowed time
The fitting metaphors relating to the New Orleans debacle are almost too numerous to mention.
First there was an extraordinary complacency, mixed together with what seemed like over-reaction, before the storm.
The city's hurricane shelters grew increasingly filthy and crime-ridden
A genuinely heroic mayor orders a total evacuation of the city the day before Katrina arrives, knowing that for decades now, New Orleans has been living on borrowed time.
The National Guard and federal emergency personnel stay tucked up at home.
The havoc of Katrina had been predicted countless times on a local and federal level - even to the point where it was acknowledged that tens of thousands of the poorest residents would not be able to leave the city in advance.
No official plan was ever put in place for them.
Abandoned to the elements
The famous levees that were breached could have been strengthened and raised at what now seems like a trifling cost of a few billion dollars.
The Bush administration, together with Congress, cut the budgets for flood protection and army engineers, while local politicians failed to generate any enthusiasm for local tax increases.
Too often in the so-called "New South", they still look positively 19th Century
New Orleans partied-on just hoping for the best, abandoned by anyone in national authority who could have put the money into really protecting the city.
Meanwhile, the poorest were similarly abandoned, as the horrifying images and stories from the Superdome and Convention Center prove.
The truth was simple and apparent to all. If journalists were there with cameras beaming the suffering live across America, where were the officers and troops?
The neglect that meant it took five days to get water, food, and medical care to thousands of mainly orderly African-American citizens desperately sheltering in huge downtown buildings of their native city, has been going on historically, for as long as the inadequate levees have been there.
Divided city
I should make a confession at this point: I have been to New Orleans on assignment three times in as many years, and I was smitten by the Big Easy, with its unique charms and temperament.
But behind the elegant intoxicants of the French Quarter, it was clearly a city grotesquely divided on several levels. It has twice the national average poverty rate.
The government approach to such deprivation looked more like thoughtless containment than anything else.
It will be many weeks before the flood waters are cleared
The nightly shootings and drugs-related homicides of recent years pointed to a small but vicious culture of largely black-on-black crime that everyone knew existed, but no-one seemed to have any real answers for.
Again, no-one wanted to pick up the bill or deal with the realities of race relations in the 21st Century.
Too often in the so-called "New South", they still look positively 19th Century.
"Shoot the looters" is good rhetoric, but no lasting solution.
Uneasy paradox
It is astonishing to me that so many Americans seem shocked by the existence of such concentrated poverty and social neglect in their own country.
In the workout room of the condo where I am currently staying in the affluent LA neighbourhood of Santa Monica, an executive and his personal trainer ignored the anguished television reports blaring above their heads on Friday evening.
Either they did not care, or it was somehow too painful to discuss.
When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class.
The uneasy paradox which so many live with in this country - of being first-and-foremost rugged individuals, out to plunder what they can and paying as little tax as they can get away with, while at the same time believing that America is a robust, model society - has reached a crisis point this week.
Will there be real investment, or just more buck-passing between federal agencies and states?
The country has to choose whether it wants to rebuild the levees and destroyed communities, with no expense spared for the future - or once again brush off that responsibility, and blame the other guy.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210674.stm
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/4/2005 8:26 AM (GMT -6) | | For those who are wondering about the avatar.
I saw this picture on a website. An older black woman huddling under an American flag for shelter while in the wake of Katrina in New Orleans. It held such symbolism for me, I damn near cried my eyes out when I saw it.
It's a paradoxical thing. It's a testament to the hope that I have in our country to protect it's weakest in time of need. It's also a testament to the underlying travesty that our country allows to go on everyday.
Man...
------------------------------------
An honest prayer.
Damn it all.
God, you know my heart. You know how I'm feeling about all this. about every displaced person. Every jobless person. Every hurting family. Every person reduced to animality. And this is just ONE of the death, destruction-filled situations that go on all the time around our world.
I'm MAD, God. I'm mad as hell! I'm HURTING for those people. On every level that I'm a human being I'm ANGRY and HURTING. I'm tired of all this death. I'm tired of all this travesty of justice. I'm tired of always making excuses for you. Yeah, I said it. Making excuses for YOU. Hell, I know that human beings are nothing compared to your Glorious Being. I know that we exist for you and not vice versa. I really do know all that. But every attempt at theodicy during this time seems to me like a big rationalization of some type. I felt the same way after 9/11 and the Tsunami among other things. All the "greater good" bull@#$# is just that. Bull@#$#. In the end, all that's left is the pain, shock, disillusionment, and suffering. It sits with us like a weight around our necks. Surely, you see this, right, Lord??
Look, in the end, I don't know WHAT the hell you are going. I know that you are working in this situation somehow, but I don't know exactly how. Maybe I can't know how. You're "wierd" that way, remember?? All I can believe at this point is that...
1) You showed your loving, just, powerful nature in Jesus
2) Your Spirit is here to empower your people to manifest your Kingdom during this time of grief and pain
and...
3) That IN THE END, everyone will taste your goodness.
Without these believes, Lord, I have nothing. I have nothing but sadness and heartbreak, and endless despair. As f#$#ing FRUSTRATING as it is walking with You, I know that there is no other place to go. Just like Peter said. I know that ultimately that theirs no other place I'd want to be in this otherwise meaningless world. As my tears flow, please hear the love that beats in my chest for your people. Please know that my words to you come from an angry, hurting person. I'm mad at you for placing me into such a cauldron of frustration and despair. Sometimes I'd rather have not existed. But I also love you for what you've done for us and me personally. And that you do care enough to give us your Spirit and give us hope. Fill me with your Spirit to help others. That's all I want at this point. Let my joy in these pained bones come from that.
Forgive any impudence you feel from this prayer. I am, as you know, but dust in the wind.
Please be with us now and at the hour of our death...so that we...ALL of us...may praise your name forever...and ever...and ever...
Signing off,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/4/2005 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | | I did a little research trying to compare the response time to this hurricane to previous hurricanes. It seems that it's been pretty typical for the Feds to take three days or more before responding. Add to that that everything had to be air-lifted this time, and most air resources were dedicated to rescue operations rather than logistics. Not to mention the sheer magnitude of the crisis.
Within hours of landfall, Virginia made a request for a disaster declaration, and this declaration was made on Thursday, September 18. Following the declaration of a disaster, EP&R was prepared to deliver assistance, and on Sunday, September 21, Virginia requested the delivery of supplies to seven regional distribution centers. EP&R only delivers to these distribution centers with further delivery (to county and local distribution centers) being handled by the state.
As soon as the weather began to clear, EP&R began opening Disaster Relief Centers. As of October 2, EP&R has approved $11.2 million for temporary housing and home repair assistance grants and $5.2 million for other eligible disaster needs including replacing personal property and emergency medical expenses not covered by insurance. Additionally, EP&R has expended $23.1 million for life-sustaining missions including delivery of water, ice, and generators at critical public facilities. This represents more than 6.3 million pounds of ice and 1.4 million gallons of water delivered. More than 3,800 people have visited 11 DRC’s and more than 51,000 individuals have registered for assistance via telephone.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/4/2005 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey: (emphasis mine)
I have a harder time seeing how race may have played a role in the formation of these horribly inadequate emergency plans. I mean the mechanics of it. I just have a real hard time fathoming HOW it could have been intentional or deliberate. I can't imagine any back-room meeting where the planners basically said, "Screw 'em. They're mostly black and poor anyway." Misplaced faith?
I believe you already know that any all of the "isms" (Classism, sexism, racism, ageism, etc) are a systemic affair that need not be intentional or deliberate to have dehumanizing, depowering effects. I can easily imagine how American methodology of handling situations have, over time, been influenced, at least in SOME way, by some of these "isms". It doesn't take much for me to imagine that at all.
It is HERE that we must make it very clear. We are dealing with SYSTEMIC problems here. Not just some mysterious Illuminati-type council that knowingly and willingly supports all the isms. To be sure, some individuals in power MAY do so, but I believe the most nefarious outworkings occur from the organizational inertia and cultural shaping power of SYSTEMS at work.
For example, it would be nice to take a systemic look at not just WHAT the demographics of New Orleans were at the time before this tragedy, but what possible factors could have been there to shape those demographics. Stuff like that.
To do so, I'd wager, would give interesting insights, to say the least.
If you haven't seen it already, you'll notice some things that tie into this in the Beverly Tatum book.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/4/2005 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
I did a little research trying to compare the response time to this hurricane to previous hurricanes. It seems that it's been pretty typical for the Feds to take three days or more before responding. Add to that that everything had to be air-lifted this time, and most air resources were dedicated to rescue operations rather than logistics. Not to mention the sheer magnitude of the crisis.
Good stuff. Just wondering some things.
1) Is this a good thing? I mean, the response time. Is 3 days or more an acceptable response time for these type of events?
2) Was Hurricane Isabelle anywhere near the above Cat 5 that Hurricane Katrina was when it was in the Gulf?
3) Were there significant reasons to believe that a hurricane hitting North Carolina and Virginia would have so much devastation because "doomsday scenarios" were considered to be on the top echelon of a list of disasters that could have massive death tolls? It seems to me, as others have pointed out, that New Orleans was KNOWN for a while to be in EXTREME danger in a Cat 4 hurricane. This actually began to exceed a Cat 5. It would seem that the governmental response would have weighed this in mind.
Just some thoughts.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/4/2005 11:53 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
I believe you already know that any all of the "isms" (Classism, sexism, racism, ageism, etc) are a systemic affair that need not be intentional or deliberate to have dehumanizing, depowering effects. I can easily imagine how American methodology of handling situations have, over time, been influenced, at least in SOME way, by some of these "isms". It doesn't take much for me to imagine that at all. This is where I'm still striving to "get it". Could you play out one of these scenarios for me? I trying to better understand specifically how a methodology of handling situations is influenced by systemic inertia. Honestly I'm trying here to understand HOW this stuff works. Sure, I've got some abstract notions that I can give assent to, but I'm trying to use this specific instance to study concretely the mechanics of the "isms". How specifically did it historically play out in this case?
I feel overwhelmed by it all. Like Doc describes the problem of evil as reverberating ripples on a pond, it's just too difficult for me to analyze what all the ripples are and how they interact. I don't see any good way to identify the specific causes and complex interactions that resulted in this disaster. Race/class may be one of the ripples, but I don't know how to weigh that in comparison with the multiple other ripples that are at play. Too much for my little brain.
My main candidates would be foolish decisions in regard to not fortifying the levee, and foolish decisions in regard to emergency response plans. If you have clarity on this, please help me understand specifically how systemic "ism" inertia resulted in or contributed to these foolish decisions.
I myself don't blame the responders too much for the time it took to get deployed. I believe they all did their best given the circumstances. The train was just following the tracks it was placed on. | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/4/2005 12:27 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
1) Is this a good thing? I mean, the response time. Is 3 days or more an acceptable response time for these type of events?
2) Was Hurricane Isabelle anywhere near the above Cat 5 that Hurricane Katrina was when it was in the Gulf?
3) Were there significant reasons to believe that a hurricane hitting North Carolina and Virginia would have so much devastation because "doomsday scenarios" were considered to be on the top echelon of a list of disasters that could have massive death tolls? It seems to me, as others have pointed out, that New Orleans was KNOWN for a while to be in EXTREME danger in a Cat 4 hurricane. This actually began to exceed a Cat 5. It would seem that the governmental response would have weighed this in mind. I'm not experienced or knowledgable about relief deployment logistics. So I'll have to defer comment as to whether 3 days or more is reasonable or not. Of course it's not "acceptable"... but it may be the reality of our capabilities. All I can observe it that it seems to be historically typical.
Given this historical parameter, shouldn't the people AT LEAST be advised that they will likely be on their own for several days? "There's a cat 5 hurricane in the gulf that will make landfall in 3 days. Our levee can only handle a cat 3, and the whole city is below sea level. Do whatever it takes to get out of town or AT LEAST have enough provision for a week or more. It's going to be nearly impossible for rescuers to get to you for quite a while."
Of course the plan should have anticipated the housing and transportation needs for the dislocated, especially the poor and infirmed, at least enough to cover the gap until a fuller response can be mounted. One of the main reasons for the riotous anger is that people's expectations were so wrongly set compared to the reality they were faced with. Post Edited (Corey) : 9/5/2005 6:00:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/4/2005 6:42 PM (GMT -6) | | | I'm usually pretty ok with Jesse Duplantis...but I just don't know how to feel about this. I'm at a loss for words. It's unspeakable...any way you want to slice it...
And you thought Jesus speakin' to the storm was a good story... 
Tell me what you REALLY think!
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/4/2005 6:47:58 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/5/2005 3:39 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I watched it too. To be honest, all I really saw was a couple in pain who were trying to keep faith in who they really believe is a good God. Their theology is interesting. If pressured to respond to that alone I'd probably disagree with some of it, for sure. However, one thing I would completely agree with is the fact that they aren't blaming God for this tragedy.
Mephi, one thing that helps me when listening to people like JD is to zoom out and allow my view to be filled with the holistic being he is (rather than just what he's saying). When I do that, I see an emotional guy who (while still in shock himself) is trying to make a plan to get back to some kind of normal life. He's scared for sure, but he seems to want to help others and is also trying to share his joy/thankfulness/beliefs in the midst of a lot of pain...for whatever reason. Can't be too much wrong in that, right?
When I notice myself getting (stealing Corey's word) "jaded," I ask myself questions like: "would I be so critical of this guy if I saw him silent, wrapped up in a flag, & weeping?" (in other words, does he somehow hold less value than the woman in the picture because for today he's not pulling at my heartstrings -- he's not suffering like she is so he can take my criticism??) I'm being honest. That is exactly how I "do" it in my head. If there is one thing I know about myself it's that I have a bad habit of changing the way I view someone when they are suffering from the way I normally view them and visa versa. That's not a good way to do life because at any given moment we are all potential sufferers!
As long as pastors like JD are not causing MORE pain by blaming God for evil events (and taking away Hope personified) I guess I'm good. Heck, even if he did that, especially considering what he's going through, I'd try to force myself into the big picture.
Just my 2 cents.
love,
selah
By the way, I believe God heard your prayer above. I really felt your pain in that and I want you to know I'm praying that God will respond by giving you some kind of clarity and peace (just as he's done with you in the past). | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/5/2005 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | | I appreciate that perspective, Selah. You're right, here's a human just trying to make it through as best he can without blaming God. But here's my real rub with WoF, especially when applied to tragedies like this one. It blames the victims. Sure, ol' Jesse had it good with God, so he didn't get smacked. And most of his staff, too. But there was one couple on the staff whose home was destroyed. Why them alone? Hmmm.... must not have confessed "it" quite good enough. Must not really have the right kind of faith.
As for those thousands who have more to be concerned about than getting their power turned back on... well... God would have protected them too, but they just aren't related rightly with Him like Jesse is. Now the tragedy is double-edged; not only are they physically in a bad place, but they must be spiritually too.
In my ministry experience I've had to deal with the PROFOUND disillusionment and despair in people who feel they can't be Christians because they can't "do" the Christian life as portrayed by WoF. WoF only works for you if you're healthy and wealthy, and even then it becomes pretty smug.
Bottom line: I think Jesse's message can be quite damaging to those who didn't get "blessed". Jesse's view is too simplistic to deal with the complex realities of this messed-up world and the warzone that it is. Post Edited (Corey) : 9/5/2005 5:48:00 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/5/2005 6:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Thinking it over, this objection I have have against Jesse being simplistic shares the same root with viewing the tragedy as the product of racialized society. It's all just too complex for my little brain to make such conclusions.
I've been meaning to bring this up. SK in Works of Love makes a big deal that "love covers a multitude of sins". He talks about how Love seeks to cover sin, rather than expose it. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Basically, it assumes the best of the other, so it seeks to find some mitigating story to explain evil.
So I'll choose to assume that those rioters aren't "bad" people. I'll choose to assume that the rescuers are doing their best. I'll choose to assume that people had good reasons for not heeding the warnings. I'll choose to assume that there are good reasons that it's taking so long to get everyone rescued. I'll assume the city planners did their best given their constraints in only making a levee that can withstand a cat 3 storm.
What if my assumptions are wrong? Does it matter?
[Later]
Is this approach in itself simplistic? I don't think so. Rather it recognizes the complexity of reality and resigns that we all have to make assumptions, being that we're all far less than omniscient. It leaves God as the only one in the position to know and comprehend the true nature of things.
Only after making this resignation am I free to engage the complexity. Post Edited (Corey) : 9/5/2005 8:45:14 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/5/2005 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | Just playing around... I cross referenced Jesse's address with those aerial photos... here's a photo near Jesse's neighborhood:
It does raise up an indignation in me that all these folks with swimming pools and large houses weren't hit like the poor were.
They must just have it in good with God.
JDM International Headquarters
Covenant Church Sanctuary
1973 Ormond Blvd.
Destrehan, LA 70047 Post Edited (Corey) : 9/5/2005 8:02:47 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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