Open Theism Discussion Board

Selah:
I watched it too. To be honest, all I really saw was a couple in pain who were trying to keep faith in who they really believe is a good God. Their theology is interesting. If pressured to respond to that alone I'd probably disagree with some of it, for sure. However, one thing I would completely agree with is the fact that they aren't blaming God for this tragedy.

Mephi, one thing that helps me when listening to people like JD is to zoom out and allow my view to be filled with the holistic being he is (rather than just what he's saying). When I do that, I see an emotional guy who (while still in shock himself) is trying to make a plan to get back to some kind of normal life. He's scared for sure, but he seems to want to help others and is also trying to share his joy/thankfulness/beliefs in the midst of a lot of pain...for whatever reason. Can't be too much wrong in that, right?

I have a multitude of thoughts on this.

I really have to post Corey's stuff here...because it resonates with how I feel...

But here's my real rub with WoF, especially when applied to tragedies like this one. It blames the victims. Sure, ol' Jesse had it good with God, so he didn't get smacked. And most of his staff, too. But there was one couple on the staff whose home was destroyed. Why them alone? Hmmm.... must not have confessed "it" quite good enough. Must not really have the right kind of faith.

As for those thousands who have more to be concerned about than getting their power turned back on... well... God would have protected them too, but they just aren't related rightly with Him like Jesse is. Now the tragedy is double-edged; not only are they physically in a bad place, but they must be spiritually too.
In my ministry experience I've had to deal with the PROFOUND disillusionment and despair in people who feel they can't be Christians because they can't "do" the Christian life as portrayed by WoF. WoF only works for you if you're healthy and wealthy, and even then it becomes pretty smug.

Bottom line: I think Jesse's message can be quite damaging to those who didn't get "blessed". Jesse's view is too simplistic to deal with the complex realities of this messed-up world and the warzone that it is.

Yes and yes. I've been following Jesse's ministry since 97. Even though I haven't agreed with all his teaching, I've always thought he was an asset to the KoG. But my man is straight up Word of Faith...and won't hesitate to tell you so. And in his theology, he really DOES believe that God will go to extraordinary lengths for people who have the faith that God desires...even to the point of stopping airplanes from taking off, getting favor with legislators, and stopping hurricanes. (You did hear the part where JD claims that he's stopped hurricanes before, right?) But as always, the WoF theology is a double-edged sword...necessarily so. If one can avoid disaster if they are in good with God because of their faith, then the logical conclusion is that if you HAVE disaster in your life, something HAD to be wrong on your end. Unconfessed sin in your life. Not enough faith. Whatever. This implicitly condemns people who AREN'T healthy, weathly, and wise. As much as I love Jesse's style, I've seen him sarcastically condemn others for their lack of faith during personal tragedy. Not cool.

Remember, Selah. I went to ORU in Tulsa, OK...the breadbasket of WoF theology. I've seen JD live a number of times. I know how this works. I've also been in a Cancer Treatment Center with WoF people being condemned by the faith community for not having enough faith to be healed. I've seen the good and bad that comes out of this theology. And I'm quite sensitive to this because of my experiences.

What do you think JD would have said about all the numerous churches in the disaster area that got totally creamed (and there were a lot of them). Looking at MSNBC and other websites, I've seen videos of people of faith gather on the TIMBER that was left of their ministries having church anyways, praising God singing hymns and all that. So, what's up with that? They didn't have enough faith while THEY were praying? See the problem.

But you know what really got me? I was like Corey...

I wish he was more concerned about the dying than about getting favor from local officials to get his electricity turned on ahead of everyone else.

If JD really believed the he had the "favor of God" on his life such that he could pray against hurricanes and stuff, why in the world didn't he pray specifically for the storm to disappate? Or better yet, why didn't he pray for God to cut the red tape on sending the help? Why didn't he pray for EVERY OTHER church out their there? He seemed so very centered on his ministry and his people. It was NOT cool to me at all. If I had that kind of prayer power, and really believed that God would accomplish what I said, I've have been praying non-stop until either the hurricane was gone or until people were safe. Especially, if I had prayed for one part of the hurricane to dissipate....and it actually mysteriously happened.

Along with all this was the thought in the back of my head that I've had every since my own experiences with God, even before seminary:

Does God really deal with only certain people and leave other people to their own devices, in times of tragedy?

I had come to the conclusion, in my more Calvinesque days, that YES, God does only deal with people that fit in with his plans, and everyone else...well...they just get screwed. But God is God and God can do what God wants. I actually had this belief even as an open theist a while, before entertaining the idea of God always trying to maximize the good and minimize evil everywhere. But Jesse's theology completely goes against this maximization motif. It's implicitly Calvinistic in that God blesses whom God blesses, which happens to be people with great faith who serve God's purposes.

So, all this touches an old nerve with me again. It struck me that maybe God DID answer Jesse's prayer and saved the majority of his ministry. Just like God may have answered Joshua's prayer and made the sun stand still (heh). When I thought about all the ministries who've lost EVERYTHING and still praised God, it deeply bothered me. Deeply. Part of me is like "It CAN'T work like this, can it? Is it really all about who God just likes...and shows favor too? Was I right about this before???" It's a deepening of the problem I had with God's assignment of "acceptable risk"

So, I didn't jive with Jesse's words praxeologically or theologically.

I know that's a lot of thoughts.

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Selah: (emphasis mine)
As long as pastors like JD are not causing MORE pain by blaming God for evil events (and taking away Hope personified) I guess I'm good. Heck, even if he did that, especially considering what he's going through, I'd try to force myself into the big picture.

Selah, if I were a WoF pastor in the devastation area and my ministry and most of my flock's homes just got totally levelled...and I were to listen to Jesse's speech about how God honors HIS faith to help HIS people...how do you think I would feel about MY OWN prayers about my churche's property, families homes and what not? I'd feel sick as hell. Believe me, Selah, in times of crisis the WoF theology can be more harmful than it seems you are acknowledging.

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Selah:
By the way, I believe God heard your prayer above. I really felt your pain in that and I want you to know I'm praying that God will respond by giving you some kind of clarity and peace (just as he's done with you in the past).

'Preciate that. It was real. God knows how I wrestle with all of this.

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Corey:
Thinking it over, this objection I have have against Jesse being simplistic shares the same root with viewing the tragedy as the product of racialized society. It's all just too complex for my little brain to make such conclusions.

I've been meaning to bring this up. SK in Works of Love makes a big deal that "love covers a multitude of sins". He talks about how Love seeks to cover sin, rather than expose it. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Basically, it assumes the best of the other, so it seeks to find some mitigating story to explain evil.

So I'll choose to assume that those rioters aren't "bad" people. I'll choose to assume that the rescuers are doing their best. I'll choose to assume that people had good reasons for not heeding the warnings. I'll choose to assume that there are good reasons that it's taking so long to get everyone rescued. I'll assume the city planners did their best given their constraints in only making a levee that can withstand a cat 3 storm.

What if my assumptions are wrong? Does it matter?

[Later]
Is this approach in itself simplistic? I don't think so. Rather it recognizes the complexity of reality and resigns that we all have to make assumptions, being that we're all far less than omniscient. It leaves God as the only one in the position to know and comprehend the true nature of things.

Only after making this resignation am I free to engage the complexity.

Here's the problem that I have with this. It's the same problem I have with the use of the mystery card. It's one thing to acknowledge that ultimately ALL situations are incomprehensible, meaning that there is not one situation in our lives that we will fully understand, because of our perspectives and limitations. It's totally another to fall into a type of epistemological resignation that doesn't have the verve to ask penetrating questions that help discern what can be understood more clearly from what cannot. At it's worst form, this leads to an uncritical, status-quo promoting type of belief that just glosses over potential issues that may bring more clarity to situations upon which we can have more awareness. It's almost like saying...

I will presume innocence until I have reasons to believe guilt

But giving NO REAL criteria for what would constitute reasons for guilt. See, the criteria formulation itself is a context-involving discussion that can ITSELF bring things to light. Why that thing as criteria for guilt and not this? or this...

I will assume that my wife is not cheating on me until I have reasons to believe that she is

But then I turn around and don't really think solidly about what would constitute good evidence to me about her possible infidelity and why I choose that evidence. So, basically I just end up saying this all the time...

Well, there must have been a good reason for that. I just don't know it.

and what happens? For all I really know, the infidelity (if it is happening) could be going on indefinitely...while I'm "thinking the best" See my thinking here?

Systemically, this type of epistemological resignation, IMO, generally serves to benefit the beliefs and/or people already in power or popularity. Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't give people the benefit of the doubt. I agree that we should do that and hope the best. But I also believe that we should critically evaluate what circumstances may constitute "reasonable doubt" or "reasonable suspicion" If a woman in a "good ol' boys", glass ceiling-esque company consistently experiences the systemic effects of sexism at the workplace, she could easily just "assume the best" endlessly...and in so doing, empower the oppressive system. And as a male, if I couldn't see the sexism going on, it would be VERY EASY for me to tell the woman...

Hey, that stuff's all in your head. Why don't you assume the best?

With respect to the hurricane situation, I could assume that the government (Pres Bush and Condi Rice included) did their knock-down drag out BEST they possibly could during this situation. That they were ultimately concerned about the danger to the Gulf Coast and firing on all pistons, doing everything they could to get information and help in any way they could. Now, if I'm presented with pictures showing Pres. Bush playing a guitar somewhere while terrible devastation is going on elsewhere in the country (http://www.thetalentshow.org/images/leadership6.jpg) (Picture taken Tues, Aug 30th)if I'm presented with stories of the Sec. of State, Condi Rice attending a theatre show (and getting booed for her presence there instead of doing her job) and buying expensive shoes while people are dying down south (for which she was unceremoniously denounced publicly by a lady in the store)...then I think I may have some reason to doubt that these particular people of our government were doing the knock-down, drag-out BEST they could to remedy this situation. I can say this because I have certain beliefs about how national leaders are supposed to respond to a national crisis. But I could just as well have said...

Well, I bet there's some good reason for that. I'll just assume the best here.

At any rate, I know that you see where I'm going here. I'm not saying that YOU take the "assuming the best" this far. It's clear that you do not. However, a significant amount of people do. And when this happens, it MAY bolster systemic oppressive structures.

Corey, remember that story I told you and the reading group about when the cops handcuffed me and put me on the ground after I dropped that piece of gum wrapper on the ground. If that's not the first time something like that's happened to me, how often would you say that I should "assume the best" about my previous interactions with police officers?

Just my thoughts.

To all heresy-hunters and general lames...

"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...

Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"

--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"

To all heresy-hunters and general lames...

"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...

Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"

--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"

To all heresy-hunters and general lames...

"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...

Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"

--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"

To all heresy-hunters and general lames...

"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...

Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"

--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"

To all heresy-hunters and general lames...

"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...

Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"

--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"

selah said...

Violin said:
1. It was known since the last major hurricane that happened in this city that if there were another level-4 hurricane, the levies were likely to break. They KNEW about it (see cnn: top 10 hurricanes)

2. They were below sea level. Ok... surrounded by lakes on at least 2 sides, below sea level, what did they expect? (Ok, theist entry here: "God, I'm going to live in a dangerous place. Please keep the water back."

selah:
Hi Violin. To be honest I don't think 1 or 2 made a lot of sense to many of the people we are talking about. Mephi's right. It IS frustrating to hear people say things like that because without "the means and wherewithal" and WITH the belief systems that have probably been in place for years, I think there is much more here than meets the eye. For one thing, I'm sure each person had beliefs about their own capability to move...and those played a part in not leaving -- no matter how much they were warned to do so. They may have been thinking about the LIFE they would leave behind instead of just getting out of town for a while...and that can be as scary as staying put in the minds of some. It's not hard to imagine someone thinking "gee,my dad lived here, his dad too, and his and his - where are WE supposed to go?" Without knowing what would be on the other end, I'm sure some who stayed did so out of fear of the unknown. I know this isn't what you're trying to do, but I don't think we can in any way blame the victims here.

What I meant by the first point was moreso directed toward the government and those who were "in the know". I mean, since the officials basically knew about the danger since around 1915 (90 years), you'd think they would have put up more protection for the people such as either building up higher foundations in those neighborhoods that were at the highest risk. (honestly, I wouldn't be too surprised if there are a lot of law suits filed against the government after this unless there is some sovereignty law or something protecting the government from law suits related to this). For the second point, the people in general did know they were living in an area prone to this kind of danger. We all know that wherever we live, nature happens.

So my main thing for posting this was mainly to say, we can't just put all the blame on God. There are so many stories about this from all angles. People are searching for others to blame, kinda like a head-hunter thing. I've also gotten caught up in that too, and I realize that it's possible that the majority of people carries some sort of responsibility in the circumstances that happened (there of course are people who don't, such as the kids). It just sometimes gets to me when people are quick to blame God instead of looking at as many sides of the issue as possible.

If you're going to be skeptical, be fair and be skeptical of skepticism.

Hurricane Katrina: Revealing the Character of a Nation
(9/11/2005)

“Blame is the luxury of those who don’t bear the burden of making the decisions.”

Hurricane Katrina appears to be the worst natural disaster to ever strike the United States. My heart and my prayers go out to all of those who have lost loved ones and those who have lost everything they own. And I applaud the heroic effort of all those who are going above and beyond the call of duty to try and help those left destitute by the storm.

It was just 9 short months ago that the world was hit by the greatest natural disaster in the past 35 years (since the cyclone in Bangladesh killed an estimated 500,000 in 1970). The tsunami was a horrifying event which most of us witnessed unfold on our televisions. While my heart aches for the victims of both tragedies, one can’t help but notice the stark contrast between the reaction of the Indonesian and American peoples.

For months after the tsunami, our television screens were filled with pictures of stunned and tearful survivors of all ages and of government officials from around the world promising that help was on the way. However, it took 6 days for help to begin arriving in the hardest hit areas and at this writing there are still families who lost everything living in the streets. Nevertheless, not once can I recall a single Indonesian expressing their anger over why they were not getting the help they needed or trying to place blame on government officials.

How very different from Katrina…from the day after the hurricane struck there has been face after angry face filling the screens telling everyone with a microphone how enraged they are that they aren’t getting immediate help and how someone in government (usually President Bush) needs to pay for their lack of response. The media and the Democratic party fanned the flames because they saw an opportunity to profit from the tragedy. The liberal media wanted to sell more advertising and nothing attracts readers and advertisers like a good scandal. The Democratic party has been going to ever more extreme means since they lost the White House and Congress and they weren’t about to let an opportunity like this pass by. Led by the ever predictable Senator Kennedy, they proceeded to blame the President for the weather and then for the fact that help wasn’t instantaneously available to every person within a disaster area the size of Great Britain. Everyone is insisting that somebody’s head roll and it looks like the first scapegoat to fall will be the Director of FEMA.

What a sad commentary on the mindset of the average American. The concepts of entitlement, instant gratification, and blame have become so entrenched in our minds that we have lost the virtues of patience, endurance, and understanding. These virtues were abundantly clear in the people of Indonesia. There was no sense of outrage or entitlement. They were grateful for the help whether it arrived early or late. Unlike here in the USA where we once again embarrassed ourselves before the world by showing that we think we DESERVE better and if we don’t get what we deserve then we’re going to BLAME somebody. It doesn’t matter that it was a logistical nightmare on a scale that has never been attempted before. Never mind the fact that to prepare the level of instantaneous response which everyone is calling for would cost trillions of dollars in government spending in every potential natural disaster area around the country for events that may or may never happen and which no one wants to pay for. No, people didn’t get help as quickly as we think they should have so now we need to have investigative committees set up…there need to be hearings…we will have years of investigative reports by the media trying to find out who else we can blame…heads need to roll…and if they can ratchet up the volume enough then maybe the Democrats might get back in the White House next time around.

Where is the basic understanding that this was a NATURAL DISASTER? No one’s to blame! We live in a fallen world but God is working out His sovereign will even through events like this. And there never has been and there never will be the ability to respond to a disaster of this scale so that everyone gets the help they need in time. This whole finger pointing exercise is indicative of a selfish and petty culture and it just encourages the world to treat us with contempt.

But what can you expect from a country which has abandoned their God? Or perhaps more accurately, that have setup themselves as God and their desires as his commandments. Does the following sound like anyone you know?

2 Timothy 3:1-5 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; avoid such men as these.

It’s still not too late for us to get off this self-destructive track that we’re on. It’s explained in 2 Chronicles 7:14:

If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

To all heresy-hunters and general lames...

"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...

Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"

--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"

1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

I think he did a pretty good job using scripture to answer a man who was arrogantly questioning God.

How do you know he was not humble? What "possibilities" would you like to hear?

God is angry at sin/sinners every day the Bible says. Don't you think He gets mad? Don't you think he is mad at my sin and your sin, the idolater, the blasphemer, the murderer, the liar, the thief, the adulterer...?Piper said we ALL, not some, deserve Katrina. He isn't pointing fingers. We all deserve God's wrath. What is amazing is that He lets us live, gives us time to repent, and come to a knowledge of Him. That's grace! That's love! And how He judges and loves is far, far beyond my comprehension.

Just because bad things happen doesn't mean He is not a God of love. He is a God of righteousness and holiness. David's baby died as a consequence of his murder and adultery. All this and God still called him a man after his own heart. But God does judge and God does Love at the same time. How, I don't know, He's God.

All I know is that He lead me to repentance, and I praise Him for it for I don't regret what I had to go through to be saved. And God the Spirit is the same God who ordained His Son to be murdered.

And God commands all men to repent. Which goes back to what Jesus said, repent or you will likewise perish because there are no people who are better. The result wil be the same for everyone, death is 100%, so repent. I believe that is the response for calamity.