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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/31/2005 11:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | As I'm looking at the devastation of New Orleans and the 1000 people killed by stampede in Iraq, I see yet more evidence of all the overall crap goin' down in the world. I just don't know. I really don't. I'm just tired of it all. At any rate, I wholeheartedly get down with the following. This catastrophe just brings to light some of the latent b.s. going down already in this country...
Check out CNN or CNN.com. Who's doing the looting? Who's doing the crying and dying? yeah...
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Prayer and action for hurricane victims
by Jim Wallis
During hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters, those who have the least to lose are often those who lose the most. Why?
First, the dwellings in which poor people live are not as sturdy, stable, or safe as others. "Shotgun" shacks, mobile homes, and poorly constructed apartment buildings don't do well in hurricane-force winds and tidal surges.
Second, the places where poor people live are also the most vulnerable. The rich often live at the tops of hills, the poor in the valleys and plains that are the first to flood. The living conditions in these neighborhoods are also usually the most dense and overcrowded.
Third, it is much harder for the poor to evacuate. They don't own cars, can't afford to rent them, and often can't even afford a tank of gas - especially at today's prices. They can't afford an airplane, train, or even bus ticket. And, as one low-income person told a New Orleans reporter, they have no place to go. People in poverty can't afford motel or hotel rooms, and often don't have friends or family in other places with space to spare. In New Orleans, there were many people who desperately wanted to leave but couldn't.
Fourth, low-income people are the least likely to have insurance on their homes and belongings, and the least likely to have health insurance. If jobs are lost because of natural disasters, theirs are the first to go. Poverty makes long-term recovery after a disaster more difficult - the communities that are the weakest to begin with usually recover the slowest. The lack of a living family income for most people in those communities leaves no reserve for emergencies.
New Orleans has a poverty rate of 28% - more than twice the national rate. Life is always hard for poor people - living on the edge is insecure and full of risk. Natural disasters make it worse. Yet even in normal times, poverty is hidden and not reported by the media. In times of disaster, there continues to be little coverage of the excessive impact on the poor. Devastated luxury homes and hotels, drifting yachts and battered casinos make far more compelling photographs.
The final irony of New Orleans is that the people who normally fill the Louisiana Superdome are those who can afford the high cost of tickets, parking, and concessions. Now its inhabitants are the poor, especially children, the elderly and the sick - those with nowhere else to go. Those with money are nowhere to be seen.
As the Gulf Coast now faces the long and difficult task of recovery, what can we do?
Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco declared Wednesday a day of prayer: "As we face the devastation wrought by Katrina, as we search for those in need, as we comfort those in pain and as we begin the long task of rebuilding, we turn to God for strength, hope and comfort." She urged residents in her state to ask "that God give us all the physical and spiritual strength to work through this crisis and rebuild."
If you wish to make a contribution to help with disaster relief, contact one of the following agencies recommended by FEMA (the Federal Emergency Management Agency) or the relief organization of your choice.
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Go to www.sojo.net
Honesty time: Why do we pray for protection from God, again?? Does it even do anything? Are we wasting our time??? Screw it. Pray anyway.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/1/2005 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | I want to make much more of a push because I think that my first post was way too indirect. At this point, honestly, as much as I appreciate lengthy prayer vigils and fasting, I'd much rather like to see our local committee of armchair theologians here (including my own pontificating a$$) really get in the game on this. There are hundreds of poor and elderly people dying RIGHT NOW in that cesspool that was once New Orleans. There are almost 1 million people of all stripes now homeless and jobless. We've got to do something. We need to do as much or even more than we did for the Tsunami victims. (We DID do something, right, people??) If our own sense of morality as human beings doesn't say this, some of our religious convictions should. Or how about I just fall back on the old "It's right in our own AMERICAN backyard" reasoning, for some of the more patriotic folk.
For perspective...a brilliant blog for those who think that wield blogging "power" on the internet...from a person who's lost about everything in the wake of this...
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To: My Fellow Bloggers and most of the MSM
From: Paul at Wizbang on behalf of himself and serving as self-appointed spokesman for Hurricane Katrina victims everywhere.
With all due respect guys and gals... Chill out.
I've never seen one event inspire so many silly posts. Many of you need to put down the mouse and walk away. ;-)
I've seen the same blogger complain both that the coverage of Katrina was "Hurricane Porn" beforehand and in a separate post whine that the media did not do enough to convince people that they should have evacuated.... You can't have it both ways.
I fully understand if bloggers were disallowed from complaining about the media and politicians, that modem and broadband sales would suffer double digit sales slumps.... But take a break.
If you think you are more qualified to run the city then the people running it, then by all means when the next election cycle comes around, come on down and throw your hat in the ring. If you think you could have stopped the hurricane if only everyone had listened to you... well I can't help ya.
There'll be plenty of time to show off your 20/20 hindsight next week. For now, accept this for what it is... a natural disaster of biblical proportions.
If you want to do something, quit yer whining and do what blogs and bloggers do best... Use information to change the world.
99% of us have no idea how our neighborhoods did. Somebody try to find and compile (reliable) damage reports from specific neighborhoods. Sure it takes some local knowledge, but google maps will fill in the blanks. [Update: The levee broke and the whole damn town flooded so I guess we can check this one off the list.]
We don't know how FEMA works. Somebody read the news reports on what FEMA is doing and what it is not... Somebody read their site and distill it for those of us who don't have time for red tape.
Flood insurance? I know the feds handle it. Who do I need to talk to? What do they pay?
Every natural disaster I send the Red Cross my standard $100 donation. I have no idea how to get money from them. It is a grant or a loan?
If I don't actually cancel my phones and my bill is auto-debit do they still bill me?
If I shut off my phone will I lose my number?
Heck- Somebody make an "Evacuee survival guide" with laser precision information on how to get help without clicking 50 links or waiting on hold 2 hours. If you can save 25,000 people 5 hours of looking up the same information, think of the power in that!
Think of the simple things- Thousands of people lost their glasses. Somebody set up a website where they can coordinate donations of (known) prescription glasses from people who no longer need them. Get a freight company to donate the freight. I bet FedEx will give you an account number that will route all the glasses to some agency in New Orleans.
If you do something to help the victims, ping this post... If there is a lot of people helping out, Kevin will set up a post with the links. (I just volunteered him 
Think about it for a second from my chair... (I'm not whining but) I'm almost 40 years old.... Here is the sum total of all my worldly possessions: 4 pairs of shorts, 5 shirts, 2 pairs of shoes, 4 pairs of underwear, 1 pair of blue jeans, a box of family pictures, 2 flashlights, a piece of trench art my grandfather brought back from WWI and my father's hammer. (Hey, it means a lot to me!) That's it. Everything else is gone. And BTW, I'm unemployed.
I tell you that not to whine but to let you see the tree thru the forest. Multiply my situation by about a million. Stop and think about that... A million people homeless and unemployed.
If you're a blogger then (by near definition) you're a self proclaimed talented person. Prove it. They'll be plenty of time for punditry and pontification next month... In the mean time there is work to be done. Figure out how to help the victims.
Please (for the sake of all of us who actually understand the situation) please stop whining about the evacuation. It was a stunning success. Please stop saying that the levee at 17th street and Canal St. broke... There's no such place. (and no, FOXNews, even if there was such a place, I assure you, it would be on the south side of the lake and not the north side of the lake where you showed it on your map)
So here it is in a nutshell... Let's get some work done and play Monday morning quarterback sometime in early 2006. There's about million or so of us who would prefer it that way.
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Let's get in this. Talk to your respective churches and ministry organization. Get em in the game if they aren't already. Let's mobilize, y'all!
For humanity,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/1/2005 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Here's a website that has tons of places to give money. For the tsunami effort, I worked through Mercy Corps among others. They have a good reputation and I felt that things would get where they were needed. YOU pray about it and give where you feel led.
instapundit.com/archives/025235.php
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/1/2005 3:49 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE,
When you said this, something in me just broke...
"I truly wish I could do more. Heck, I wish God could do more."
I'm looking at pictures of mothers holding dying babies covered in human filth in an American city. I'm reading a story about a woman who lead a crowd of people in the Superdome screaming Psalm 23.
And I'm thinking...
"Is God REALLY doing everything God can to stem this? If so, is the God I serve really this helpless at a time like this? Is this the same God who, in Jesus, stilled a storm by a WORD???"
And the silence to that is deafening.
What does this MEAN?
Can I even give MEANING to praying for God's providential aid?
Are we truly THIS alone??? Is God truly this impotent??
If so, then so be it. Let God keep loving us and "doing his best." And let US get OUR hands dirty to help in practice. Let God cry over the babies he can't save. Let US try to save them. Let God try to woo people to open their homes and resources to others. Let US do the damn thing!
Giving full vent to my feelings,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/2/2005 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | |
JEE said...Meph, ...I honestly have lots of trouble believing God is in all cases doing ALL he can to minimize evil when things like Katrina happen... John
This is why I have a problem with the whole faith/reason thing. How does one come up with a theology that says "God does all he can to minimize evil????" (is that how you worded it back on the carlie thread Tom?) When we see things like Katrina what makes us - all of a sudden- put God on trial again? When are we supposed to "cash in our trust chips" from what we know to be true about God from scripture (which does include the possibility of judgment - but NOT really our concluding that that's what is going on). Doesn't God have more credibility than our own thoughts and feelings? (2Cor 10:4-5) God is love. God is good. God is faithful. God is just. God is mighty/mysterious etc etc. This is all scripture. I guess if you erode that...well... anything's possible!
I'd love to talk about how to best interpret the following:
phil 4:6 Do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, [b]which surpasses all understanding,[/b] will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, beloved, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, THINK about these things.
2Cor 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but they have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments 5 and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ.
Luke 18:6 And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them? 8 I tell you, he will quickly grant justice to them. And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"
~selah
Purity of heart: it is a figure of speech that compares the heart to the sea,
and why just is this? Simply for the reason that the depth of the sea determines
its purity and its purity determines its transparency. On this account we
compare the heart with the sea, because the purity of the sea lies in this
consistency in depth and transparency.
- Purity of Heart is to Will One Thing, P.176
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2005 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
This is why I have a problem with the whole faith/reason thing. How does one come up with a theology that says "God does all he can to minimize evil????" (is that how you worded it back on the carlie thread Tom?) When we see things like Katrina what makes us - all of a sudden- put God on trial again? When are we supposed to "cash in our trust chips" from what we know to be true about God from scripture (which does include the possibility of judgment - but NOT really our concluding that that's what is going on). Doesn't God have more credibility than our own thoughts and feelings? (2Cor 10:4-5) God is love. God is good. God is faithful. God is just. God is mighty/mysterious etc etc. This is all scripture. I guess if you erode that...well... anything's possible!
I'd love to know, Selah. From what perspective are YOU going at this. Which form of the "greater good" argument are you using? Are you being more Calvinistic and saying that even though God brought this about, there DEFINITELY is a greater good reason, all-wise (whether judgement or whatever) that we just cannot fathom? Or are you being more open view and saying that even though God is doing absolutely everything he can to stem all the violence, death, and destruction (from the beginnings of the hurricane to present), this is all that God has been able to do?
Which take is yours?
Since you are a firm believer in scripture...from John Piper...
Natural disasters
Another kind of calamity that threatens life and health is violent weather and conditions of the earth, like earthquakes and floods and monsoons and hurricanes and tornadoes and droughts. These calamities kill hundreds of thousands of people. The testimony of the scriptures is that God controls the winds and the weather. "He called for a famine upon the land; He broke the whole staff of bread" (Psalm 105:16). We see this same authority in Jesus. He rebukes the threatening wind and the sea, and the disciples say, "Even the wind and the sea obey Him" (Mark 4:39, 41).
Repeatedly in the Psalms God is praised as the one who rules the wind and the lightning. "He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers" (Psalm 104:4). "He makes lightnings for the rain, [he] brings forth the wind from His treasuries" (Psalm 135:7). "He causes His wind to blow and the waters to flow . . . Fire and hail, snow and clouds; Stormy wind, fulfilling His word" (Psalm 147:18; 148:8; see 78:26). Isaac Watts was right, "There's not a plant or flower below but makes your glories known; and clouds arise and tempests blow by order from your throne." Which means that all the calamities of wind and rain and flood and storm are owing to God's ultimate decree. One word from him and the wind and the seas obey.
and...
2. Even if Satan caused the earthquake in the Indian Ocean the day after Christmas, he is not the decisive cause of 100,000+ deaths, God is.
God claims power over tsunamis in Job 38:8 when he asks Job rhetorically, “Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb . . . and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?” Psalm 89:8-9 says, “O Lord . . . you rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them.” And Jesus himself has the same control today as he once did over the deadly threats of waves: “He . . . rebuked the wind and the raging waves, and they ceased, and there was a calm” (Luke 8:24). In other words, even if Satan caused the earthquake, God could have stopped the waves.
See, Selah, certain scripture gives God a WHOLE LOT more power than many open view theists wanna give God credit for. You and I have talked about this before...and you've agreed with this. Doc knows this too, but he doesn't know what else to say theologically speaking. IMO, he finds open view theism theodicy to be the lesser of two evils. "Anything's better than Calvinism" as it were. But even IF we went ahead and completely ignored this motif and said that God just gave a tremendous amount of freedom to creation, it would still be the case that God would be using "acceptable risk" mentality such that God would say "Yeah, it's an acceptable risk to me that Tropical Storm Katrina become a category 5 hurricane, tear up the Gulf Coast, destroy New Orleans, and endanger tons of lives." Which would just be another version of the "greater good" argument where we are left to posit some mysterious circumstances by which God would want to allow such destruction as an acceptable risk.
My perspective is this: If we are gonna say that God has self-chosen impotence in the face of a complex creation, let's live with the consequences of that. Let's stop being punks about it! Let's ante up and say that on MANY practical areas, we are ON OUR OWN, effectively speaking. We end up time and again talking about how God feels so bad about everything that's going one. That God is there with all the suffering people, hurting with them. But bottom line, that doesn't do a DAMN THING for relieving people's messed up situations. It's almost like God is Patrick Swayze from the movie "Ghost" before he learned how to move stuff. He would just be there agonizing over certain situations WITHOUT being able to really do anything. But hey, he was there, right? Do you see the issue?
You know me, Selah. I'm just asking that we be consistent. You know darn well that if a human being acted the way God acts with us (that is, saying that they are always with us in spirit, but to our minds, rarely helping us out in concrete ways in times of complete adversity), we'd waste NO TIME in saying to ourselves "Hey, this person may really care, but if I want things to change, I've got to do this ON MY OWN." So, why don't we say the same thing to God.
God, you keep doing everything you can do. But I won't bank on any of that panning out. If it does, cool. But I just can't rely on that. Creation is so complex, you know. I'll just do everything I can...and help other humans do everything THEY can. I hope you don't see this as unbelief, but again, Creation is so complex. And I know how that constrains you most of the time.
So, Selah. What is your take? I'm very interested. I'm assuming you've been keeping up with what's going on.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2005 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Does the ruler of the power of the air get any respect from fair weather fans of God?
Ephes. 2:1-5 (NRSV)
You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
Does God get any respect for sustaining the world?
Thanks be to God for all that is given, Lord have mercy.
Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/2/2005 10:12:29 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2005 10:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
Meph, I have a quick question and then you can return to this. But what do you say about the scripture that says that, every good and perfect gift is from the Father above? I know this is the opposite angle of how you are framing this thing. If we have to remain FUNDAMENTALLY AGNOSTIC about God's providence in our lives, what do you say to those who would pull this out of their theological bag of tricks?
Doc and I already dealt with this long ago. His answer was the best response I've heard of...and it ain't that good. Basically, because God is the ULTIMATE creator and everything (including the scientific laws and whatnot) then ultimately God is behind any strokes of chance that go our way...and we should thank God accordingly. So, even if some good things come to us not from divine intention but just good fortune, it still comes from God.
Sooo...ya like that answer? Me neither.
************************************
Mark:
Does the ruler of the power of the air get any respect from fair weather fans of God?
Does God get any respect for sustaining the world?
I don't know. Ask the authors of Job, some of the Psalms, and Lamentations. What do you think?
The Defiant Man of Faith
by Rabbi Shmuley Boteach
www.beliefnet.com/story/174/story_17407_1.html
And as far as "fair weather fans of God", you're not speaking of anyone here, right? Just making sure. 
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2005 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | I suppose I'll bell this cat, too. On a straight human tip.
www.cnn.com
www.bbcnews.com
I am a human being. I am a Christian. I am an American from the Southern U.S. I am an African-American male. I am from a lower-to-middle class family.
On all of these fronts, I am thoroughly disgusted at what I've been seeing in New Orleans and the rest of the Gulf Coast. BLESSINGS be upon all the people who are helping in any way possible in this time of need! May God continue to bless their wonderful hearts with health and strength, as God can...
However...
As I'm looking at all the footage, I'm struggling. Seriously. I'm really trying hard to stay colorblind and classless about this. I'm really trying to say that this atrocity does NOT demonstrate the immense level of racism and classism that continues to permeate our society. I'm really trying to believe that it is purely chance that the majority of people I'm seeing dying in New Orleans are people of color (overwhelmingly African-American), the poor, and the elderly and infirm. I'm trying to believe that racism and classism are IN NO WAY involved in the terribly slow, inadequate manner that the federal government is handling this situation. (Perhaps it's mostly just rank friggin incompetence. Even BUSH HIMSELF is now condemning the initial relief effort! Check the links! Not that he was any real starter himself...check the "Visions of Leadership" http://www.thetalentshow.org/ )
But to tell the truth, y'all. I'm finding it very hard. Very hard indeed. It frustrates the HELL out of me when I keep hearing certain people say "Well, they just should have got out when the evacuation warnings came. It's their responsibility." I wanna f$$#in scream. Like friggin EVERYONE in New Orleans, a city plagued with almost 30% of its population in poverty, would have the means and wherewithal to pack up their homes, load up their SUVS and vans, and just huff it to some friends and family they may have elsewhere. To be sure, people of all classes and ethnicities from New Orleans are in a world of trouble, whether or not they got out. We are looking at up to a MILLION PEOPLE displaced, lots jobless and homeless. Refugees galore. However, it seems just plain silly to pretend to NOT NOTICE the amazing disparity this natural disaster is bringing into view.
So, help a brother out. If there is some other plausible explanations for what I'm seeing in New Orleans completley OTHER THAN this being a demonstration of the gross outworking of a implicit racist, classist social structure that has always existed in New Orleans and other places, I am definitely open to it.
Please re-read Jim Wallis's statement in the first post on this thread. His insights seem to be similiar to what I'm seeing.
I'm VERY, VERY serious about this. Help me out.
PS: If you haven't contributed to the relief effort in some kind of way by now...PLEASE pray on it and see where God can use you. PLEASE.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/2/2005 11:21:44 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2005 12:24 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
I don't know. Ask the authors of Job, some of the Psalms, and Lamentations. What do you think?
And as far as "fair weather fans of God", you're not speaking of anyone here, right?
I’m speaking to all of us, myself included. Do any of us really know what we would do if placed in Job’s shoes?
How strong is our faith, look at the anarchy and lawlessness going on in the face of the Gulf storm, and are not many of theses people Christians?
I think God is sustaining this world from complete collapse until the second coming of Christ. In the meantime I’m trying to hang on to my faith and learn to swim in this world.
Rabbi Boteach said...
“What is finally needed, after thousands of years of religiously inspired unrest, is the defiant man of faith who believes that his principal religious calling is to defy the heavens in defense of human life.” - Rabbi Shmuley Boteach
I think Rabbi Boteach offers foolish advice. A harsh lesson was given by God to Moses for his arrogant display of defiance.
Numbers 20:11-12 (NRSV)
Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his staff; water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their livestock drank. But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust in me, to show my holiness before the eyes of the Israelites, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them."
Peace,
Mark
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 9/2/2005 5:02 PM (GMT -6) | | I hope my response isn't too controversial, but it's hard to respond to this kind of problem adequately since it's so emotionally charged at this moment. How can we satisfy an emotional inquiry with cognitive-ish answers? So, for the sake of this question, let's step back for a sec...
Let's see it from a non-theist perspective first... what we know:
1. It was known since the last major hurricane that happened in this city that if there were another level-4 hurricane, the levies were likely to break. They KNEW about it (see cnn: top 10 hurricanes)
2. They were below sea level. Ok... surrounded by lakes on at least 2 sides, below sea level, what did they expect? (Ok, theist entry here: "God, I'm going to live in a dangerous place. Please keep the water back.")
3. They knew there was a hurricane coming. They were told to get out. The town had 495,000 residents. 50,000-100,000 stayed. That's 1/8 to 1/4! Now if 1 out of every 4 stayed, yes, that does correspond to the poverty level, but I don't think that corresponds to the car to people ratio. A bunch of people stayed and they had cars to leave.
Now, please do keep in mind that my heart absolutely goes out to those people who are hurting, including those who decided to stay. I'm just giving another perspective on things.
Now (re-inserting theism back into the picture), with knowing all this, first, God never promised to keep us safe all the time from every harm physically. Just look at the early church and how many persecutions they endured. As Mark pointed out, Satan is also prince of the air. According to the news, the levies didn't break until the storm just passed. The main part of the hurricane was over the lake at that time. It would be a simple thing for Satan to simply knock over one of the levies, right?
So basically, my point is, we can't just say "God, why aren't you protecting me?" To me, it's almost like that's saying, "God, you're supposed to do all the work." There are many other factors involved. I do think that if we had an omniscient perspective on this, it would make a whole lot more sense. But we don't... so we come to the best conclusions we can for what we've got. And as Christians, of course we should help out in some way.
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/2/2005 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | |
So, Selah. What is your take? I'm very interested. I'm assuming you've been keeping up with what's going on.
Hi Mephi,
I honestly think the BEST/most kind/most loving/most helpful thing we can do for the people in New Orleans is to pray for them.
That's my "take" in a nutshell. I'll try to respond more fully in the morning.
Blessings,
selah
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2005 8:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Please watch "Role of Race Questioned" under Watch Free Video on the www.cnn.com. They talk about "the elephant in the room"
I can't post a direct link.
Thanks for the input thus far.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 9/2/2005 11:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, I thought the role of race video was a joke. What a prideful thing to say. For one thing, nobody knew until Tuesday, (I was watching the storm Monday night with a friend) AFTER the storm was over of the massive flooding and this was due from the levees breaking. The next day, Wednesday, I was watching the news in the morning and they had interviewed this guy who said he had been flying rescue missions all night and all day pulling stranded people from the roof tops. They were even showing video of the rescues. And these people, these government people have the audacity to say that response is slow?!?!? What do they want, the rapture?!? So we are looking at 1 day for response time. We are looking at another 3 days to get troops and food down there. Keep in mind that they are busing people out of there, and saving people from roof tops. And if these idiots would not have started shooting at the people that were trying to help them it would have been sooner. I don't know what Bush is talking about.
The old poor and black and if those people were white they would have been out of there by now prideful arrogant attitude is what the problem is not the response time. The mayor said to the folks at the convention center to walk across the bridge to get the hell out of there!!! But I just knew this was going to come up from someone. How pathetic. How sad. Playin the race card.
When I saw the video I saw people period! This guy says, "God would not be happy" So God would not be happy that people were being rescued the NEXT DAY from roof tops? Why didn't this guy jump in his car and go down there himself? And people say that white folks are racist.
I don't know, I feel for those people just as everybody else. It's a horrible thing. My first thought was to offer my home as a place to stay, but I don't know how people would get here or how I would support them. I can give some money and pray like I have been...it makes me so mad when they play that race crap! It is not legitimate in this case.
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/3/2005 2:42 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Hi Meph,
I watched the video. If 67% of the people are people of color, it seems to me that we can't prove race to be an issue. Even if we could prove it, how would that be helpful? Wouldn't it just feed anger and malice? I'm not saying race/class aren't part of the problem, maybe they are. The only way I can approach this ( or any other issues where unknown variables are present) is to start by knowing what I know for sure and move on from there. I know for sure people need prayer, relief, emotional healing, love, and yes, even Jesus Christ. That's where I have to start.
love ya,
selah
as for my "take" on the Calvinist vs. Open view on this... I guess I believe prayer avails. I think that leaves at least a strong version of one of them out.
- Psalms 46:1-5
- 1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. 2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change, though the mountains shake in the heart of the sea; 3 though its waters roar and foam, though the mountains tremble with its tumult. (Selah) 4 There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy habitation of the Most High. 5 God is in the midst of the city; it shall not be moved; God will help it when the morning dawns.
Post Edited (selah) : 9/3/2005 8:14:58 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/3/2005 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | |
Violin said: 1. It was known since the last major hurricane that happened in this city that if there were another level-4 hurricane, the levies were likely to break. They KNEW about it (see cnn: top 10 hurricanes) 2. They were below sea level. Ok... surrounded by lakes on at least 2 sides, below sea level, what did they expect? (Ok, theist entry here: "God, I'm going to live in a dangerous place. Please keep the water back."  selah: Hi Violin. To be honest I don't think 1 or 2 made a lot of sense to many of the people we are talking about . Mephi's right. It IS frustrating to hear people say things like that because without "the means and wherewithal" and WITH the belief systems that have probably been in place for years, I think there is much more here than meets the eye. For one thing, I'm sure each person had beliefs about their own capability to move...and those played a part in not leaving -- no matter how much they were warned to do so. They may have been thinking about the LIFE they would leave behind instead of just getting out of town for a while...and that can be as scary as staying put in the minds of some. It's not hard to imagine someone thinking "gee,my dad lived here, his dad too, and his and his - where are WE supposed to go?" Without knowing what would be on the other end, I'm sure some who stayed did so out of fear of the unknown. I know this isn't what you're trying to do, but I don't think we can in any way blame the victims here. Violin: 3. They knew there was a hurricane coming. They were told to get out. The town had 495,000 residents. 50,000-100,000 stayed. That's 1/8 to 1/4! Now if 1 out of every 4 stayed, yes, that does correspond to the poverty level, but I don't think that corresponds to the car to people ratio. A bunch of people stayed and they had cars to leave. selah: Well, you may have a point there. I'm sure there were people who stayed simply because they didn't want to evacuate. Of course, it doesn't do any good to blame them now, but we should at least learn from their actions. If they had a place to go and the means to get there, they should have gone. They have certainly complicated the relief effort for those who truly need relief! My parents live in Florida. They are far from poor and they have shared with me that they choose to stay during hurricanes because they don't like the traffic jams and all the inconveniences that go into evacuating. hmmm. I hope they learn from this... Violin: Now, please do keep in mind that my heart absolutely goes out to those people who are hurting, including those who decided to stay. I'm just giving another perspective on things. Now (re-inserting theism back into the picture), with knowing all this, first, God never promised to keep us safe all the time from every harm physically. Just look at the early church and how many persecutions they endured. As Mark pointed out, Satan is also prince of the air. According to the news, the levies didn't break until the storm just passed. The main part of the hurricane was over the lake at that time. It would be a simple thing for Satan to simply knock over one of the levies, right? So basically, my point is, we can't just say "God, why aren't you protecting me?" To me, it's almost like that's saying, "God, you're supposed to do all the work." There are many other factors involved. selah: yes, amen. Violin: I do think that if we had an omniscient perspective on this, it would make a whole lot more sense. But we don't... so we come to the best conclusions we can for what we've got. And as Christians, of course we should help out in some way. selah: amen amen amen! We do not have the omniscient perspective and we will not get it through our reasoning. It just doesn't make sense. I really believe we HAVE to do what we KNOW to do...and that is to help, to pray and keep the faith and continue to work for the good. Thanks for bringing another perspective. love selah
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/3/2005 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Cool stuff.
Just to let y'all know, I'm really appreciating the perspectives. I'm not trying to be funny or offensive with what I'm going to say here. But are there any people of color out there who'd be willing to also comment on this stuff. I want to get as much diversity in the points of view that I can. And as far as I know, all the people who are responding to me are not American people of color. Here's the shout out. Let me hear from y'all.
I'll be comin in on this more soon...yes...
Important PS: Don't take CLASS and socio-economic distinction out of this conversation. I'm taking about racism and classism together because even though the two systems of oppression are distinct, they are inextricably linked in their effects. So I'm just giving a reminder not to undervalue CLASS in this discussion.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/3/2005 9:26:47 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2005 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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