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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2005 9:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | Yeah. I'm a firestarter. You'd think that having people lambast me during our post-election posts about Bush (calling me DIVISIVE of all things, heh!) that I'd learn my lesson and keep my big mouth shut on Sept. 11th of all days.
Serves ya right for thinking.
An interesting letter from that biased, liberal whiner Michael Moore...
***************
Sunday, September 11th, 2005
A Letter to All Who Voted for George W. Bush from Michael Moore
To All My Fellow Americans Who Voted for George W. Bush:
On this, the fourth anniversary of 9/11, I'm just curious, how does it feel?
How does it feel to know that the man you elected to lead us after we were attacked went ahead and put a guy in charge of FEMA whose main qualification was that he ran horse shows?
That's right. Horse shows.
I really want to know -- and I ask you this in all sincerity and with all due respect -- how do you feel about the utter contempt Mr. Bush has shown for your safety? C'mon, give me just a moment of honesty. Don't start ranting on about how this disaster in New Orleans was the fault of one of the poorest cities in America. Put aside your hatred of Democrats and liberals and anyone with the last name of Clinton. Just look me in the eye and tell me our President did the right thing after 9/11 by naming a horse show runner as the top man to protect us in case of an emergency or catastrophe.
I want you to put aside your self-affixed label of Republican/conservative/born-again/capitalist/ditto-head/right-winger and just talk to me as an American, on the common ground we both call America.
Are we safer now than before 9/11? When you learn that behind the horse show runner, the #2 and #3 men in charge of emergency preparedness have zero experience in emergency preparedness, do you think we are safer?
When you look at Michael Chertoff, the head of Homeland Security, a man with little experience in national security, do you feel secure?
When men who never served in the military and have never seen young men die in battle send our young people off to war, do you think they know how to conduct a war? Do they know what it means to have your legs blown off for a threat that was never there?
Do you really believe that turning over important government services to private corporations has resulted in better services for the people?
Why do you hate our federal government so much? You have voted for politicians for the past 25 years whose main goal has been to de-fund the federal government. Do you think that cutting federal programs like FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers has been good or bad for America? GOOD OR BAD?
With the nation's debt at an all-time high, do you think tax cuts for the rich are still a good idea? Will you give yours back so hundreds of thousands of homeless in New Orleans can have a home?
Do you believe in Jesus? Really? Didn't he say that we would be judged by how we treat the least among us? Hurricane Katrina came in and blew off the facade that we were a nation with liberty and justice for all. The wind howled and the water rose and what was revealed was that the poor in America shall be left to suffer and die while the President of the United States fiddles and tells them to eat cake.
That's not a joke. The day the hurricane hit and the levees broke, Mr. Bush, John McCain and their rich pals were stuffing themselves with cake. A full day after the levees broke (the same levees whose repair funding he had cut), Mr. Bush was playing a guitar some country singer gave him. All this while New Orleans sank under water.
It would take ANOTHER day before the President would do a flyover in his jumbo jet, peeking out the widow at the misery 2500 feet below him as he flew back to his second home in DC. It would then be TWO MORE DAYS before a trickle of federal aid and troops would arrive. This was no seven minutes in a sitting trance while children read "My Pet Goat" to him. This was FOUR DAYS of doing nothing other than saying "Brownie (FEMA director Michael Brown), you're doing a heck of a job!"
My Republican friends, does it bother you that we are the laughing stock of the world?
And on this sacred day of remembrance, do you think we honor or shame those who died on 9/11/01? If we learned nothing and find ourselves today every bit as vulnerable and unprepared as we were on that bright sunny morning, then did the 3,000 die in vain?
Our vulnerability is not just about dealing with terrorists or natural disasters. We are vulnerable and unsafe because we allow one in eight Americans to live in horrible poverty. We accept an education system where one in six children never graduate and most of those who do can't string a coherent sentence together. The middle class can't pay the mortgage or the hospital bills and 45 million have no health coverage whatsoever.
Are we safe? Do you really feel safe? You can only move so far out and build so many gated communities before the fruit of what you've sown will be crashing through your walls and demanding retribution. Do you really want to wait until that happens? Or is it your hope that if they are left alone long enough to soil themselves and shoot themselves and drown in the filth that fills the street that maybe the problem will somehow go away?
I know you know better. You gave the country and the world a man who wasn't up for the job and all he does is hire people who aren't up for the job. You did this to us, to the world, to the people of New Orleans. Please fix it. Bush is yours. And you know, for our peace and safety and security, this has to be fixed. What do you propose?
I have an idea, and it isn't a horse show.
Yours,
Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com
mmflint@aol.com
****************
Wait a minute. Maybe he ain't so liberal. He didn't even mention the obvious fact that it's four years later and we still haven't caught Osama Bin Ladan. Surely, a true libby would have mentioned THAT. Hmmm. Oh, well...
Remember Patriot Day today. Pray for our troops. May God bless and may WE continue to support our troops who have served and are serving our country. [Yes, I DO support the troops...though I seriously question the job their Commander-in-Chief is doing!]
Whatever,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2005 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh, one more thing...something preemptive
I'm NOT going through that whole nonsense about "judging" Bush again. His character is between him and God. His Christianity is between him and God. And MY views of his job performance are my views...which I can appropriately express. You can feel free to differ from them.
Yeah...
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2005 9:31 AM (GMT -6) | | I want to corroborate this...and I certainly HOPE that it's not true...
If so, I'm speechless.
Bush orders FEMA to protect Upsidedownland
www.bobharris.com/content/view/637/1/
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2005 3:58 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2005 11:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Looking, hopefully not in vain, for a little consistency. You wouldn't want right-wingers posting something equivalent to this but from their perspective.
I PROFOUNDLY don't want this board to become about politics. There's enough other places out there to rant.
Wherein is the concern with consistency? If we are talking about letting this place be a place where different people can share their perspectives, I'm very consistent. If some conservative, right-wing, whateveryouwanttocallit person wanted to post stuff from Rush Limbaugh's personal website, I couldn't care less. Not saying I wouldn't care about that person's perspective. I may well want to engage it. I mean that I wouldn't care that they would post that stuff HERE on this discussion board. The only thing I would be concerned about is if someone consistently derailed OTHER THREADS from their intended purposes co-opting them for their own purposes...instead of just starting their own threads. (We've seen this behavior before...and I believe it was dealt with in those cases) From what I understand, this area of the board is called "GENERAL CHAT", meaning that a person can start threads about whatever...as long as the decorum is within stated limits.
And I wouldn't worry about the WHOLE BOARD becoming about politics. To keep this in perspective, we are talking about ONE thread on ONE forum among many. If people aren't interested in the topic, they just don't discuss it and move on to other stuff they'd want to talk about.
So, wherein is my inconsistency? Help me see what you are talking about.
PS: Maybe we should say this. I am NOT Doc. I don't have the Anabaptist leanings he does such that I'm not willing to give a personal perspective of my own on things that have political import. Though I agree with the general tenor and theological import of his separation of the kingdoms of this world from the Kingdom of God, we do NOT agree at all points on how this works out. So, I could see the charge of inconsistency somewhat sticking if I were like Doc in my approach towards politics at all points. But I am not.
Just some clarification.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/12/2005 2:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Kingdom of God, royal priesthood, holy nation...
If we want to keep politics off the board, we need to discourage mention of the Bible, especially the gospels, Romans, and 1 Peter. There certainly is a separation between the "kingdoms" of this world and the Kingdom of God, but the Kingdom of God is still a kingdom, and it is right here at hand. Christianity is the claim that Jesus is Lord. That's politics.
That being said, politics not rooted in Christianity might not really fit here.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 9/12/2005 2:47:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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ThatDarnCat
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/12/2005 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I think Corey has a point. There's a difference between posting your own thoughts about politics and just posting the thoughts of others and/or links to others' postings about politics.
What meffy is doing on this thread is merely a document dump of the thoughts of others and thus not worthy of any discussion.
Plus there's the whole copyright issue. If some author posts on his website and sells advertising on his website, he has a financial interest in others reading his post on his website, not on some other web site. And if that other web site is this one, Corey, as owner and moderator, is directly responsible.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/12/2005 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmm...
Corey:
Ok... it helps to understand that you don't hold to Doc's theology in regards to the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of this world. That avoids one area of inconsistency (but may introduce it's own problems).
Clarification. I said that I do agree with "the general tenor and theological import of the separation between the kingdoms of this world and the Kingdom of God." I do feel that the distinctions made in the "Cross and the Sword" serious are VERY important. Don't get me wrong. I also said that Doc and I don't agree at all points on HOW this distinction plays itself out.
Where I agreed: I specifically Doc, during the Cross and Sword series, giving the hypothetical example of him being a
Christian...and a socialist. Basically, his point was that, at least theoretically, his geo-political stance should not be more important that his common link with other Christians such that he is willing to not have fellowship (or others are not willing to have fellowship with him) simply because of the geo-political differences themselves. Greg admitted that Peter, the Zealot...and Matthew, the tax collector may have had some interesting "fireside chats" about their views of the kingdoms of this world, even though what brought them together and kept them together was Jesus, the Messiah.
Frankly, that's what I see this as. A "fireside chat." I can either be Peter or Matthew, people who disagree are the other disciple. Same thing to me.
One of the concerns I had with Doc's view was I didn't see clearly how a person (or people) representing the Kingdom of God would form a distinct prophetic voice that would be potent enough to engage and critique the kingdoms of the world...even as it kept itself utterly distinct from those kingdoms. Particularly when that Kingdom representation may have political overtones...such as the opposition of systemic oppressions leading to and exacerbating poverty He's been asked this question by many more people than me. And he's STILL "living in that question." Also, how is the tension held between living IN the world but not OF the world. But it's a significant question to be answered. And that's a question still bieng "lived in" Giving you a heads up. Taking Doc's DIRECT thought on the Kingdom all the way out, you'd have to say that being in any kind of peacekeeping force that could possibly using killing violence cannot ultimately be considered consonant with a Kingdom person's life. Meaning Christian people shouldn't go into the military OR the police force. Not making that thought up. Wait for the book "Myth of a Christian Nation." More likely than not, it will be in there between the lines.
So, though I largely agree with Doc on his useful separation of categories, that are IMMENSE praxeological implications that, I believe, haven't been fleshed out enough to be as helpful as they could be. Hence, some of my diffferences.
All this said, what "problems" do you feel are being introduced by me not being totally consonant with Doc's views? I'm interested to see what your thoughts are on that.
************************************
Corey:
My general point though is that I still suspect you aren't treating others how you would want to be treated.
I am not even joking when I ask this question: How am I treating people badly? Right now (as before), I am going over in my head how I would feel if someone posted something from a more right wing blog (like www.evangelicaloutpost.com That's one of the one's I frequent) that basically talked about how the liberals and their political perspective were a tremendous obstacle to American progress. Again, I imagine someone quoting Rush Limbaugh AT LENGTH essentially saying the above and posting it on a thread. And you know what? It doesn't bother me one bit. Not at all. Well, let's go deeper. I'm imagining that some ultra-right wing person is actually posting something that to the effect that the Negroes should have just had SENSE enough to walk out of New Orleans if they didn't have cars (duh) and that everyone who truly DOES think it is a significant race/class issue needs to have their head examined...and they spent a whole post saying something like that. Again, I may strongly differ form the perspective. But am I feeling like they are TREATING ME BADLY? By no means! They are expressing their opinion about the situation...and their thoughts on the subject. Now things might get different if they were were getting blatently ad hominem with people that happened to disagree with their position as the discussion went on and things just kept getting more and more caustic and not open to discussion and dialogue. But until that point, I wouldn't have a problem with them in the least.
So, I don't know if it's my own weird brain or what, but I'm not seeing the problem here. I am VERY open to seeing the problem, if someone will help me.
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Corey:
In any event, I'll just play the SK card here and choose to assume the best. Maybe this is my point... I would want people to assume the best of me, and so I should assume the best of others. So, if share this with me, then I would expect consistency to demand that you assume the best of others (and Michael Moore et al are case studies in assuming the worst of others!) Inarticulate, I know, but I think there's something to this.
What I'm hearing from you is this:
If you believe in SK's principle of assuming the best of others, then correspondence that does NOT seem to assume the best in others may be problematic. Michael Moore's stuff seems to be assuming the worst of others
Corey, I really want to sit down with you and Modes and get this whole "assuming the best" thing clarified in my own mind. We talked about this on another thread...and Modes and I have talked about this besides this context. I would specifically like to know how SK's principle of assuming the best relates to 1) interaction with systemic evils and 2) political commentary. Maybe we should get together and go out to Panera or something. I don't know. But the concepts of "assuming the best", it seems to me, is bittersweet in that it's an excellent position to be interpersonally, but comes into some serious conflicts when there are layers of systemic dysfunction...or when heavy critique is layed in a quasi-satirical way.
I simply MUST get this cleared up in my mind. Seriously, let's you me and Modes correspond via email...and get some possible dates where we can process about this. I think it'd be a very helpful conversation for me personally.
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Corey:
I would like to understand, then, what is your theology of politcs? Maybe this should be a seperate thread. Or maybe you've already had this discussion and I just missed it.
Need clarification. What exactly do you mean by "theology of politics"? What concepts are you talking about? This would help me to answer the question.
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ThatDarnCat:
I think Corey has a point. There's a difference between posting your own thoughts about politics and just posting the thoughts of others and/or links to others' postings about politics.
What meffy is doing on this thread is merely a document dump of the thoughts of others and thus not worthy of any discussion.
This is SOOO interesting. I'm actually stunned. Seriously. What I'm hearing is this...
Posting the thoughts of others, posting links to other's sites, or "document dumping" is not cool and frowned upon here.
Please understand my amazement. I've been on this board since 2000. I've seen a lot of stuff on this board...and ONE THING I've seen time and time again is what you've just said above. I've seen it done on TONS of topics...including politics! The ONLY problem that I've ever seen publicly recognized here with that is when people did it ALL THE TIME and screwed up the flows of posts. Having whole pages on threads that were lenghty "cut and pastes" (I don't even have to say their names. You KNOW who I'm talking about!) That's when we had to start having the ignore feature. Remember that? There was definitely a need for reining that in...but NEVER, I mean NEVER in the 5 years I've been active on this board have I seen it said that posting the thoughts of other, posting links to other's sites, or "document dumping" was in and of itself unacceptable on the board.
And whenever I do do it, I pretty much ALWAYS directly cite the website or give the website where I got the information. I'm hoping that ANYONE'S that's seen my post for any length of time knows that.
I can't help but think that this is MAINLY because of the content of the thoughts themselves...and not the fact that those thoughts are not actually MY OWN thoughts.
Corey????
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/12/2005 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | To show you where I'm coming from...
An Op-Ed piece from the Wall-Street Journal.
www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219
Blame Amid the Tragedy
Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.
BY BOB WILLIAMS
Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
As the devastation of Hurricane Katrina continues to shock and sadden the nation, the question on many lips is, Who is to blame for the inadequate response?
As a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, I can fully understand and empathize with the people and public officials over the loss of life and property.
Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.
The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.
The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.
In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.
A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.
The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.
Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.
The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.
The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.
Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.
The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.
In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.
State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."
I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.
The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.
--------------------------
Taking as TRUE and NOT MINIMIZING that Mayor Nagin and Gov. Blanco did not handle their positions with full competence or speed, to say the LEAST (there is more than enough incompetence to go around here!)...
Can it truly be said that President Bush and the federal government did absolutely everything within its reasonable power and authority to help the Gulf areas affected by Hurricane Katrina?
From the White House website
www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050831-4.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
August 31, 2005
Fact Sheet: Federal Relief for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina
In Focus: Hurricane Relief
Today's Presidential Action
The President Is Directing Federal Agencies Throughout The Government To Do All In Their Power To Assist The Victims Of Hurricane Katrina. The top priority is to save and sustain lives. Today, President Bush convened a Cabinet-level task force on Hurricane Katrina response and recovery. Residents of the Gulf Coast states affected by the hurricane have lost loved ones, lost homes, and been displaced from their communities, and they will have the full support of the Federal government.
The President Has Given The Department Of Homeland Security (DHS) Authority To Coordinate The Response. The President announced that Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff will chair the interagency task force while Michael Brown, DHS Undersecretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response, is serving as the Administration's lead on the ground.
As of Aug 31, the Federal Government were in control of this situation. Unambiguously. And this was AFTER the Aug 27th acknowledgement of the problem...
www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html
Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana
The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.
The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.
Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding.
Representing FEMA, Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response, Department of Homeland Security, named William Lokey as the Federal Coordinating Officer for Federal recovery operations in the affected area.
[Note: This is the where that conspicuous weirdness comes from about FEMA being authorized to coordinate "all disaster relief efforts" for the more INLAND parishes of Louisiana. Still trying to figure out that wierdness...because until a change at the last minute Hurricane Katrina was expected to make a DIRECT HIT on New Orleans!
Now, help me out. Given that FEMA was authorized to be primed and ready to help parishes literally just miles away from New Orleans...AND on Aug 29th, they extended the emergency to ALL Louisiana (seemingly now recognizing the threat to the coastal areas?)...AND finally on Aug 31, taking significant control of the situation...can we look at the response to New Orleans and truly said that the federal government, including our Commander-In-Chief did EVERYTHING it could to stem death and save lives during this time? Can we really say this?
And is it not even a consideration that if New Orleans can be blamed for elected an official with no previous office experience (Mayor Nagin elected in 2002, and was a president of a Cox Cable) that the federal government is just plain friggin NEGLIGENT in placing a man who ran f'in HORSE SHOWS in a position as important as FEMA Director. And this is supposed to be post-9/11?? Come on!
They ended up dumping him...for someone who (surprise, surprise) actually DID have some experience in rescue operations...
FEMA Dumps Brown as Katrina Relief Chief
Go here
"One Republican welcomed Brown's ouster with unusually sharp language. "Something needed to happen. Michael Brown has been acting like a private instead of a general," said Sen. Trent Lott (news, bio, voting record) of Mississippi, whose state was hard-hit by the storm."
"He "simply doesn't have the ability or the experience to oversee a coordinated federal response of this magnitude," wrote Reid and Sens. Dick Durbin of Illinois, Chuck Schumer of New York and Debbie Stabenow of Michigan.In the final analysis, it seems there was TONS of bungling going on in this whole thing. And EVERYONE should be held responsible for their requisite share...even our beloved Leader. Even the op-ed piece at the top says (in a slightly minimalist way): I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. Well, darnit, let those chips fall where they have to. AND let's be very reflective on what ALL of this is revealing about our situation and society. That's all I'm saying.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/12/2005 1:10:33 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/12/2005 1:32 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Corey: My general point though is that I still suspect you aren't treating others how you would want to be treated. I am not even joking when I ask this question: How am I treating people badly? Right now (as before), I am going over in my head how I would feel if someone posted something from a more right wing blog (like www.evangelicaloutpost.com That's one of the one's I frequent) that basically talked about how the liberals and their political perspective were a tremendous obstacle to American progress. Again, I imagine someone quoting Rush Limbaugh AT LENGTH essentially saying the above and posting it on a thread. And you know what? It doesn't bother me one bit. Not at all. Well, let's go deeper. I'm imagining that some ultra-right wing person is actually posting something that to the effect that the Negroes should have just had SENSE enough to walk out of New Orleans if they didn't have cars (duh) and that everyone who truly DOES think it is a significant race/class issue needs to have their head examined...and they spent a whole post saying something like that. Again, I may strongly differ form the perspective. But am I feeling like they are TREATING ME BADLY? By no means! They are expressing their opinion about the situation...and their thoughts on the subject. Now things might get different if they were were getting blatently ad hominem with people that happened to disagree with their position as the discussion went on and things just kept getting more and more caustic and not open to discussion and dialogue. But until that point, I wouldn't have a problem with them in the least. So, I don't know if it's my own weird brain or what, but I'm not seeing the problem here. I am VERY open to seeing the problem, if someone will help me. I'm with ya now. I think we've (or at least I've) been talking past each other, so I should apologize and should clarify: I'm just categorically against caustic dialog, and Michael Moore (and others on the Right, to be sure) consistently hits that nerve for me. I'm just not interested in having a board that isn't upbuilding, and that's the way that the original posts came across to me. Politics is such a loaded topic that it often degenerates and brings out the worst in people. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 9/12/2005 1:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Mephman said...
In the final analysis, it seems there was TONS of bungling going on in this whole thing. And EVERYONE should be held responsible for their requisite share...even our beloved Leader. Even the op-ed piece at the top says (in a slightly minimalist way):
I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also.
In which case we REALLY SHOULD have a letter coming from Moore to Blanco and Nagin. Yep...Michael Moore IS a biased, liberal whiner. Anyhoo..that sure is a far cry from racism that we've heard and it is closer to a conservative position that has been espoused by the likes of Rush Limbaugh. Personally, I don't see how FEMA could have deployed faster without the request and OK from the LA governor. That's kind of required. And deployments on that scale are not simple or easy. It requires a lot of logistics and planning to go from Zero to Three-State-Rescue and Recovery. It is my belief that the State and Local governments are supposed to have the most say in how things are done; not the Feds. I am also of the belief that when you are dealing with chaos and the breakdown in communication which is evident from the photo's of school buses in 5 feet of water, (which as you know is not the problem of Bush. I mean I don't see pics of those school buses and say to myself, "Yep. Bush is the one to be faulted for that." There was a "comunication break down" right from the get go that started at the local level) that even under "normal circumstances" the ability to manage great numbers of people i.e. an employer/free will employee relations is extremely difficult ie., the smaller the number, the better the chance of dealing with company issues.
www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110007230
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/12/2005 3:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Barak's a stand up guy. I love...I mean it...LOVE this quote. Emphases mine.
"It is way too simplistic just to say this administration doesn't care about black people," Obama said in a Tribune interview. "I think it is entirely accurate to say that this administration's policies don't take into account the plight of poor people in poor communities and this is a tragic reflection of that indifference, but I also have to say that it's an indifference that is not entirely partisan.
"We as Democrats have not been very interested in poverty or issues relating to the inner city as much as we should have. Think about the last presidential campaign: It's pretty hard to focus a moment on which there was any attention given."
I really hope that people understand what underlies that statement. The poverty issue has been here since BEFORE Bush got into office. To be sure, some of Bush's policies haven't helped matters, as Barak himself has already stated elsewhere. However, the disparity between have-nots, haves, and have mores has BEEN there. The classism is a critical issue. To be sure, I am very sure that Mr. Obama is not segmenting race and class issues more than he seems to be saying (with which I agree) that it's foolish to just make this whole thing to be solely about outright, blatent INDIFFERENCE towards people of color. Though I can deeply resonate with the knee-jerk response to want to do that, it doesn't take in all the factors nor does it place due primacy on classism issue.
[Digression: There seems to be so much outrage towards people who ARE primarily making it a race issue. (I'm thinking about the flak Kanye West is taking for his statements at an awards show about Bush not caring about black people) I'm wondering...can ANYONE watching the tv for the last week or so seeing all the black faces in those crowds not see any POSSIBLE emotional impetus for such claims, as simplistic as those claims may be? Just wondering. Hmmm..]
Good stuff. 
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/12/2005 8:28 PM (GMT -6) | | |
MephEternal said...
All this said, what "problems" do you feel are being introduced by me not being totally consonant with Doc's views? I'm interested to see what your thoughts are on that.
I think you've already covered what my concerns would be. I'm quite convinced of the importance of distinguishing between a power-over vs. a power-under approach. It looks that we agree that we should strive for the "distinctly Kingdom" alternative. Glomming on to Moore or Limbaugh as a Christian disreputes the gospel. That's what I thought I saw happening.
I understand the importance of diversity to be healthy, but I guess I'd expect a church's staff to be pulling together pretty much in the same direction, primarily as directed by the senior pastor and board of elders.
MephEternal said...
I really want to sit down with you and Modes and get this whole "assuming the best" thing clarified in my own mind.... let's you me and Modes correspond via email...and get some possible dates where we can process about this. I think it'd be a very helpful conversation for me personally. I'd benefit from this as well. Let's do it.
MephEternal said...
Need clarification. What exactly do you mean by "theology of politics"? What concepts are you talking about? This would help me to answer the question.
You've already started to address this. Maybe it's better to ask about your "theology of government"... what is your system of thought as a Kingdom person informed by God in regards to what a worldly government should be like or not like. How should we as individuals participate in or relate to both of these Kingdoms? How have you answered the question that Doc is "living in"? Does your answer to this result in viewing, say, liberals as being more Kingdom aligned (on the whole) than conservatives? --------------
Let me just add that I'm feeling MUCH better about our interaction. Seriously, I was pretty sure you'd essentially hang up the phone and dismiss me as just being a male-white-conservative-upper-middle-class guy if I exposed that I don't respect Michael Moore very much. Like shown in The Color of Fear, I dreaded being invalidated just because of my race and social class.
This sort of idea is at the root of most of my angst over the last few weeks. I'm really struggling -- "living in the question" -- to develop a consistent and God-informed way of thinking about and engaging the race and class issues we're faced with.
Inflammatory stuff from the likes of Michael Moore or whoever really just pushes me the other way at this point. I have enough to deal with already. Post Edited (Corey) : 9/13/2005 6:32:39 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/13/2005 5:06 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Bush Takes Responsibility for Blunders
WASHINGTON - President Bush for the first time took responsibility Tuesday for federal government mistakes in dealing with Hurricane Katrina and suggested the calamity raised broader questions about the government's ability to handle both natural disasters and terror attacks.
People being accountable. That's what I like to see. Now, that Michael Brown has resigned, maybe we can place someone more qualified in there. Kudos to Pres. Bush for standin' up for himself and the federal government. Now, where's the local government at? Logic...returning...people...taking...responsibility...ahhhhhh...
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/13/2005 5:26:44 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/13/2005 5:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Let me just add that I'm feeling MUCH better about our interaction. Seriously, I was pretty sure you'd essentially hang up the phone and dismiss me as just being a male-white-conservative-upper-middle-class guy if I exposed that I don't respect Michael Moore very much. Like shown in The Color of Fear, I dreaded being invalidated just because of my race and social class.
This sort of idea is at the root of most of my angst over the last few weeks. I'm really struggling -- "living in the question" -- to develop a consistent and God-informed way of thinking about and engaging the race and class issues we're faced with.
Inflammatory stuff from the likes of Michael Moore or whoever really just pushes me the other way at this point. I have enough to deal with already.
This is all very good to know. To be sure, "The Color of Fear" is some heavy stuff in and of itself...but with the tenor and context of this New Orleans nightmare, I could see a person processing all this having their hands full just developing their own ideas and making sense of any of it. So, I'm hearing ya. I definitely think it'd be good to process these issues while we're processing SK stuff.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 9/13/2005 6:38 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't have a problem with believing that the federal government had some serious issues going on with Katrina. What I ever took issue with is:
A. Blame this ALL on Bush.
B. The BRUNT of the problem lies at the state and local levels.
I say that at the state and local level, those are the people on the ground. And most of what happens by way of the federal relief is in part due to WORKING WITH THOSE LEVELS. I can at least understand why things are slowed up AFTER a disaster communication breakdown, chaos, etc. I don't find it excusable BEFORE of which most of it is up to the governor who said she needed 24hours to make a decision (it was "too complicated" ) while the Prez asked her on the Sunday before the hurricane hit to declare an emergency right away.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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