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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/25/2005 7:52 AM (GMT -6) |   | Man...that John Piper...wow...all emphases mine
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"The whole Bible wants to teach us the lesson of 2 Corinthians 1:9: Don't pin your hopes on man or anything this world can offer. Look to God for your hope, your joy, your fulfillment, even in death for He is the God who raises the dead. If we trust Him like that He will be greatly glorified and that is His first purpose in our adversity.
But the second half of the lesson here is that God often glorifies Himself by delivering from death those whom He has taught not to fear death. God receives praise when His people die in peace, trusting Him. And God receives praise when He delivers His people from death. Which He shall choose lies in His secret counsels and whether He has more work for us to do. Five seconds before the VW van hit the front of the bus in which my mother was killed, my father, who was sitting beside her in the front seat, stood up from the seat beside her and turned to speak to the touring group. And when the van hit, the lumber on its roof came like rockets through the windows, killing my mother instantly but not my father, because seconds before, he had stood up. And ten days later as I rode in the ambulance with him from Atlanta to Greenville he said, "God must have a job for me to do." That was the answer. God's purpose for my mother's ministry on this earth was finished, but my Dad's wasn't. So He raised him out of that seat and delivered him from death.
And He will deliver him for his evangelistic work until His purpose is complete."
www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/81/010481.html
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"It's worth asking as a parenthesis here how a good God can be happy when the world is shot through with suffering and evil? It's a huge and hard question. Two things help me. One is that it doesn't help much to save God's reputation by saying that he is not really in charge. If someone had tried to comfort me in December 1974 when my mother was killed in a bus accident, by saying, "God didn't will this to happen. You can still trust him. He's good.", I would have answered by saying, "My consolation does not come from thinking that God is so weak he can't pert the lumber on top a VW van." My God is sovereign. He took her in his appointed time; and I believe now and someday I will see that it was good. For I have learned in Jesus Christ that God is good. The Biblical solution to the problem of evil is not to rob God of his sovereignty."
www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/83/091183.html
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An Interview with John Piper on "When I Don't Desire God "
www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/christian_hedonism/dont_desire_interview_pt2.html
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You know, I think that there are some VERY, VERY personal reasons why Piper's such a staunch Calvinist...don't you? Put yourself in Dr. Piper's place. Can you IMAGINE what hearing open view theism would sound like to him? I could definitely see this fueling at least SOME of the fire with the whole debate!
Moreover, can you imagine what it would feel like to serve a God that ordained all suffering (ie, Holocaust, Rwanda, etc), INCLUDING your mother's death in such an ignoble fashion? The only thing one COULD do to have utter JOY in such a Being is to brainwash themselves into making this God their one and only treasure.
Wow. 
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/25/2005 2:37 PM (GMT -6) | | AW. that's a sad story...
Here's what doesn't make sense to me though:
piper:
...If someone had tried to comfort me in December 1974 when my mother was killed in a bus accident, by saying, "God didn't will this to happen. You can still trust him. He's good.", I would have answered by saying, "My consolation does not come from thinking that God is so weak he can't pert the lumber on top a VW van." My God is sovereign. He took her in his appointed time; and I believe now and someday I will see that it was good. For I have learned in Jesus Christ that God is good. The Biblical solution to the problem of evil is not to rob God of his sovereignty."
selah:
If someone really told Piper that God didn't WILL the bus accident, that God could be trusted, and that He's good. Why does that translate for Piper into "God is weak." Couldn't it simply mean "the bus driver was a bad bus driver" or "there really IS an enemy ...and/or the world is full of evil?" I REALLY don't get how Piper believes God's goodness looks like God killing his mom in a bus accident...
If I could I would tell Piper that I believe God is strong enough to pert lumber on top a VW van (gee). I would also tell him that no one is trying to rob God of his sovereignty to solve the POE...they are simply affirming WITH HIM that Jesus and God are GOOD... But they (OV) are being consistent in doing so... oy.
Meph:
You know, I think that there are some VERY, VERY personal reasons why Piper's such a staunch Calvinist...don't you? Put yourself in Dr. Piper's place. Can you IMAGINE what hearing open view theism would sound like to him? I could definitely see this fueling at least SOME of the fire with the whole debate!
selah:
So are you sticking up for the "F" in his theology now Mephi? 
Meph:
Moreover, can you imagine what it would feel like to serve a God that ordained all suffering (ie, Holocaust, Rwanda, etc), INCLUDING your mother's death in such an ignoble fashion? The only thing one COULD do to have utter JOY in such a Being is to brainwash themselves into making this God their one and only treasure.
selah:
ya. I get that.... sad.Post Edited (selah) : 10/25/2005 2:41:33 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/25/2005 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
So are you sticking up for the "F" in his theology now Mephi?
Not really. Actually, it's even further demonstration of what I've been thinking for some time now. And part of the reason I have such a healthy skepticism of theologizing as a whole.
Both Doc and Dr. Piper are passionate men. Both of them have had serious tragedies in there childhoods. Both of them lean very heavily on their views of God to provide themselves with ultimate meaning in the seeming senselessness of the pain in their lives. (This is not armchair psychologizing. Both men have stated as much in publications and personal discussion and/or interviews)
For Greg to believe that God ORDAINED all of the terrible abuse that he'd suffered as a child (He's preached about this many a time) not to mention the Holocaust, Haitian poverty, child abduction, etc. would be existentially devastating for him.
For John to believe that ignobole deaths, like that of his mother or tragedies like Sept. 11th really COULD have been gratuitous evil with NO divine purpose behind it (and his dad's being alive pure luck) would be existentially devastating for him.
Interestingly (and ironicly) enough, Piper ONCE believed in libertarian freedom...and Doc ONCE believed in Calvinism. As their two lives have taken their turns, and as one traces their lives, the outcomes are not that hard to predict. Just read Piper's "Desiring God" and Doc's "Letters to a Skeptic"
Both men swear up and down that there are being as true to scripture as they can...and they sincerely mean it. Yet they come to diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive theologies...and varied interpreations of the same scriptures. How can this be?
What good is it to say "Sola scriptura" when it's so obvious that our existential needs and desires so easily drive our scriptural interpretions and our theologizing?
To what extent are we dealing with projection, wish fulfillment, and the like?
Was Freud right about some of his critique of religion?
Hmm...
This is not to say that I am perfectly objective and disinterested here. I'm not. NO ONE IS. We NEVER read scripture from a disinterested point of view. Our theologies are always autobiographical in some way. The best that we can do is to RECOGNIZE that fact, own that up front, and recognize it in our interpreting process.
Yet...
Still one wonders.
How much does past history and experience really DO affect present faith and faith claims?
Do we just exchange security blankets and imaginary friends for abstract theologies and passionately-held views of God?
Some would sure think so.
I'm not so sure that I terribly disagree with them.
Just being honest.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/25/2005 3:58:54 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 10/25/2005 9:02 PM (GMT -6) | | MephEternal:
This is not to say that I am perfectly objective and disinterested here. I'm not. NO ONE IS. We NEVER read scripture from a disinterested point of view. Our theologies are always autobiographical in some way. The best that we can do is to RECOGNIZE that fact, own that up front, and recognize it in our interpreting process.
Corey:
We're on the same page here, Meph. It's been quite a journey for me to realize that the "one truth" that I crave is not to be found in acquiring the "right" set of propositional beliefs, but rather through just living in love with the living God. In a new way I see that the greatest or highest thing I can do is to love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, and my neighbor as myself. That's my bedrock as theology goes. The higher up I build from there, the shakier it gets.
I was raised as a staunch Calvinist, and in fact my parents still attend Piper's church. But you know, the way I process our deep theological differences is through the lens that all theology is doxology. These are expressions of thought that we develop in an attempt to glorify God because we love him.
Yes, they are mutually exclusive. But in actuality (i.e. from God's perspective) I suspect the answer is "e - none of the above." We all face that 1 Cor 3 experience of seeing the crap in our lives burned off. As I told my dad, in 100 years neither of us will be a Calvinist, nor an OVer.
I imagine that God looks at us somewhat like I look at my kids. They're inaccurate on most topics, but you know, it delights my heart anyway to see their honest expressions and sincere hearts. I care far more about their character than I do about the propositional content of their beliefs. There's time enough for it all to come together for them later. Post Edited (Corey) : 10/25/2005 10:41:42 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/26/2005 6:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
I imagine that God looks at us somewhat like I look at my kids. They're inaccurate on most topics, but you know, it delights my heart anyway to see their honest expressions and sincere hearts. I care far more about their character than I do about the propositional content of their beliefs. There's time enough for it all to come together for them later.
Thanks for sharing that, Corey. Say, with respect to the statement above, I have heard some people who use this very reasoning in a more pan-religious way. All of our theologies are wrong in some way. God appreciates our sincerity of heart, and cares much more about us being loving, reverent people than whether we are Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, or whatever. From a Christian inclusivism perspective, this wouldn't seem to be a problem. What do you think about that perspective?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/26/2005 8:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Heavens, it's not new that any two Christians believe differently about the many aspects of Christianity. What is new, it seems, is when any two Christians can disagree about these various aspects and still love each other, enough so that they can fellowship and dig each other's person. Almost as enjoyable and rewarding as studying the scriptures is conversing with Christians who believe differently than I in a spirit of sharing and learning. It's not easy sometimes, but when it clicks it's awesome.
Yeah, we come to the Word with presuppositions and we bring our histories with us as we walk, but man, let's all get a grip on that and walk together. Let's enjoy talking about the different clothes we wear, the foods we eat and the shoes that take us where we're going as we walk along. That's really what it's all about.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/26/2005 8:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman:
Heavens, it's not new that any two Christians believe differently about the many aspects of Christianity. What is new, it seems, is when any two Christians can disagree about these various aspects and still love each other, enough so that they can fellowship and dig each other's person. Almost as enjoyable and rewarding as studying the scriptures is conversing with Christians who believe differently than I in a spirit of sharing and learning. It's not easy sometimes, but when it clicks it's awesome.
Yeah, we come to the Word with presuppositions and we bring our histories with us as we walk, but man, let's all get a grip on that and walk together. Let's enjoy talking about the different clothes we wear, the foods we eat and the shoes that take us where we're going as we walk along. That's really what it's all about.
Ok. Could we do this with (say) gay Christians? Would it be cool for me to chill with churches or people that ordain gay people into ministry? Or could I do this with churches who don't believe in women being in pastoral ministry?
What does this form of ecumenism look like to you?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/27/2005 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | It is a contradiction to live the gay lifestyle and claim the Christian walk. scripture is very clear about noting those who oppose sound doctrine and to avoid them; not to say, "you're not good enough," or anything like that, but with the hope of causing them to repent so that they may be received back into the fold. It isn't that I would not even talk with a "gay" Christian. It is that ultimately, when we are done discoursing, I'm going to have maintained the stand that he is wrong living in sin. I cannot fellowship with that person.
Women holding leadership positions is not a lifestyle issue. I can dialog with someone about this, though I may (or may not) disagree with the stance. And I can fellowship with that person.
A professing Christian who believes in abortion (which I oppose) is not to be refused discourse or fellowship unless the mentality of the person is such that the person's view reveals something very sinister; not a true heart for God but a complete disregard for life with a coverup by claiming to be a Christian. In other words, if one not only has no regard for life, but prides herself in how many abortions she has had and that kind of mentality (obviously a male can be included here but with qualifications!), there's a huge problem that flys square in the face of the whole meaning of what it means to be a Christian.
Finally, each of us will draw separate lines that cannot be crossed as we come in contact with Christians and those claiming to be Christians. To be a "Christian," at core, one must believe a few basics: that God is; that men are sinners and separated from God; That in God's love He sent Jesus, the Son of God, the only Savior, who died on the cross to atone for our sins and make fellowship with God possible. True ecumenism has to start, I believe, with these basics. Lifestyle, I believe should complement these basics.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 10/28/2005 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
Corey:
I imagine that God looks at us somewhat like I look at my kids. They're inaccurate on most topics, but you know, it delights my heart anyway to see their honest expressions and sincere hearts. I care far more about their character than I do about the propositional content of their beliefs. There's time enough for it all to come together for them later.
Thanks for sharing that, Corey. Say, with respect to the statement above, I have heard some people who use this very reasoning in a more pan-religious way. All of our theologies are wrong in some way. God appreciates our sincerity of heart, and cares much more about us being loving, reverent people than whether we are Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, or whatever. From a Christian inclusivism perspective, this wouldn't seem to be a problem. What do you think about that perspective? In response I would emphasize that our "correct" propositional beliefs do not equate to rightly relating with God. Neither does our "correct" character per se. What matters is our relation to him. I cut my kids some slack because they're MY kids... "love covers a multitude of sins."
For the record let me say I DO hold to an inclusivism/universalism view, provided that we understand that the only way to be saved in IN CHRIST. Post Edited (Corey) : 10/28/2005 8:07:26 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/28/2005 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
In response I would emphasize that our "correct" propositional beliefs do not equate to rightly relating with God. Neither does our "correct" character per se. What matters is our relation to him. I cut my kids some slack because they're MY kids... "love covers a multitude of sins."
For the record let me say I DO hold to an inclusivism/universalism view, provided that we understand that the only way to be saved in IN CHRIST.
ROCK IT, MAAAAAN!!!
Same here...or could you have guessed that already? 
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 10/30/2005 1:39 PM (GMT -6) | |
this is what I wonder about your view:
1. how does one get "in christ"
2. is anyone out of Christ?
3. if no one is "out of christ" ...what's the point of distinguishing that the "only way to be saved" is in christ?
4. If no one is lost...what does it mean to be saved? saved from what? (sin?...)
thanks!
T
"I have never been able to conjure up (as some great Evangelical missionaries have) the appalling vision of the millions who are not only perishing but will inevitably perish. On the other hand… I am not and cannot be a universalist. Between these extremes I cherish and hope that the majority of the human race will be saved. And I have a solid biblical basis for this belief." ~
John Stott I don't deny that the road to destruction is wide. It's absolutely agonizing to consider what lies ahead of most people! These words we say about "getting saved" are not idle notions. If you die apart from Christ, you're really screwed. You will face the judgement and have no hope of avoiding it. Every word and deed will be judged. Every word the Bible says about hell is the straight-up truth. In my study, though, I'm wondering if there may just be some hope that eventually those in hell will break themselves and submit in grateful love and hope, and in faith cry out that even now God could save them through Christ. I speculate that he could/would.
So...
1. How does one get "in Christ"? By grace through faith. This is more than just a magic prayer, but a movement of the heart to fundamentally re-align one's hopes and allegiances to Christ. I can no longer hope in myself, because I am hopelessly lost. It took the miracle of the God-Man dying to make this reconciliation and hope possible.
2. Is anyone out of Chrst? Yes! Currently MOST of humanity is not in right relation with God through Christ.
3. If no one is out of Christ ....? I don't accept that no one is out of Christ.
4. If no one is Lost ....? I don't accept that no one is Lost.
I honestly think I'm MORE motivated to evangelism and outreach than I was in my purely exclusivist days, because I see each person now as needing to make this movement AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! They're going to make this decision eventually, why not NOW and avoid all the hell that awaits them otherwise? Not to mention the positive stuff... like LIFE abundant!
As a pure exclusivist, it was pretty easy for me to basically write off people. Post Edited (Corey) : 10/30/2005 1:53:07 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/30/2005 2:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey,
Preach, man. PREACH!
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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