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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/6/2006 2:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | This is SOOOO exciting...we're getting closer...
This is huge. If all this works out, we'll have the solid skeleton to say that post-rock-bottomers can possess the capacity for "genuine" love according to the original form of TWT 1. (Which people like Tom will like)
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IF
God is perfect love
AND
there is a possible world where eventual universal reconciliation can exist in a TWT 1-conducive world (What we are working on right now!)
AND
a perfectly loving God would have the desire and the genuine ability to create a TWT 1-conducive world where eventual universal reconciliation obtains...
THIS GIVES US REASON TO BELIEVE THAT...
our created universe IS that possible world...
AND...
universal reconciliation is true.
Forget annihilationism.
Forget ECP.
We...are...almost...there.  Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/6/2006 1:46:33 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/6/2006 7:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Ay yo, Corey.
I think we've got a winner here...
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 2:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Damn, it's quiet.
What's up?
Let's see some yeahs or nays...
Somthin'
Tom. Corey. Brandon. Stark. Anyone?
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/7/2006 1:53:13 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 1/7/2006 9:48 AM (GMT -6) | | OK, Mephi, do you really believe this anyway? I mean LFW. Heck, you don’t care whether or not agents exercise LFW in coming to God anyhow. You can live with them yielding less beauty than LFW agents who determine themselves. Seems to me you have an EASIER way out—just say that when people hit the flames, poof, the fires burn away the barnacles and they become compatibilistically loving and go to heaven—wham. Hell is just the doorway they step through, but in stepping through it they sacrifice a whole lot of themselves and become the lowest caste in heaven (yielding some but little beauty compared to the rest of us). Why are you so interested in a scenario that involves LFW?
Tom
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 10:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
If these guys are P's, then not having any further questions at this time is a pretty remarkable in itself and may be a tacit endorsement of sorts. If they're like me, they're taking time to soak on it and try to think of the question they're NOT asking.
I was REALLY hoping that it was something like that.
********************************
Corey:
When I tried on universalism as outer-wear several months ago, I was quite willing to take it off if it got too hot. Today it's become one of my favorite shirts that I'd be reluctant to part with. It's become part of how I view myself and how I view the world.
I'm with you, man!
*******************************
Tom:
One thing that's gonna be REALLY difficult for me to do is to say Jesus had a poorer grasp on God's love than we do. So I'll try to fit this new discovery into a biblical framework, whereas Mephi can live with Jesus and Paul being wrong on everything except the resurrection and the fact that God exists. Everything else appears to be up for grabs?
Well, we can work on that, I suppose.
****************************
Tom:
OK, Mephi, do you really believe this anyway? I mean LFW. Heck, you don’t care whether or not agents exercise LFW in coming to God anyhow. You can live with them yielding less beauty than LFW agents who determine themselves. Seems to me you have an EASIER way out—just say that when people hit the flames, poof, the fires burn away the barnacles and they become compatibilistically loving and go to heaven—wham. Hell is just the doorway they step through, but in stepping through it they sacrifice a whole lot of themselves and become the lowest caste in heaven (yielding some but little beauty compared to the rest of us). Why are you so interested in a scenario that involves LFW?
Honestly?
1) It's about finding out what's most likely to be true.
2) It's also being about finding a model of universalism that can be consonant with the free-will theodicy in general (Docs' in particular). In the end, I wanted a model that even the most DIE-HARD libertarian warfare worldview holders would HAVE to accept as being true. There are some people who were go along with the other idea just fine...but not people like you, Tom or Brandon, it seems. Not the hardcore libbys.
So, I wanted to press forward to see if there was something. And Corey brilliantly gave the last piece to a nice-sized puzzle. (I felt like Dr. Arraway in "Contact" when Mr. Haddon gave her the clue about the code being in 3d instead of 2d)
We have found our non-black crow.
What I believe, Tom...(and I believe this TO THE CORE)...
Now that we've discovered what we've discovered here...and if God is TRULY perfectly loving...then everything really IS gonna be all right "after while and bye-and-bye" (as they used ta say at my home church back in the day.)
Doc quoted someone for me when we talked one time. He said "Everything that WILL be well...is well already." Speaking of what universal reconcilation would mean. I never forgot that.
And when you LIVE in it EXISTENTIALLY...it makes all the difference in the world.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/7/2006 9:53:22 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | So, Tom...
Is it truly the case that, in the current articulation that we have, that LFW exists "where it counts" in the post-rock-bottom existence?
I'm a J. I NEED to hear it flat out.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Ha...ha...ha.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
Meph: Doc quoted someone for me when we talked one time. He said "Everything that WILL be well...is well already."
Jeff: That sounds like a contradiction to everything else Doc says, to me. It seems that he is one who takes current evil and suffering PROFOUNDLY seriously. He doesn't try to play it down in terms of some meta-plan. Isn't that why he said we are to warn in the mean time? I mean, how does eventual salvation in any way negate the importance of avoiding judgement? The importance of avoiding judgement (and even futile suffering) is just as profound whether or not universalism is true, isn't it?
Thinks are NOT "well already," are they?
It's not meant to play anything down. God's love wins ALL in the end. When I look at a lost, irreligious zombie-like crack field that everyone has given up on who has AIDS...I can take solace in knowing that SOMEDAY this human being will experience the love of God in their lives. SOMEDAY, whether in this life...or all the way to the rock-bottom experience...this person will be freed from their compusions and enjoy loving relationships with others.
They do NOT end up in some eternal conscious torment.
They do NOT end up enduring suffering and then passing out of existence, never again to know love.
A perfectly loving God won't allow such utter loss, when it's in God's power to prevent it.
When I look at people, I see people who WILL experience and share God's love SOMETIME in the future. So I endeavor to look at people with this in mind...and call some of that out of them TODAY. When I see so-called "hopeless" people, I'm reminded that NO ONE is hopeless. God is the one who makes a way out of NO way!
Everything that WILL be well...is well already.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Whoops. Forgot this...
Corey:
I have been meaning to ask you... remember how this whole discussion started with AoP? How are you dealing with this evidence that the early church believed in ECT?
Well...just being honest....
The historical and exegetical case for belief in ECT seems very, VERY strong, in my view. I still think that it's the most plausible biblical take...with annihilationism being a kinda-close second.
Now, obviously there is ROOM within Christianity to be a universalist (as Tom's already pointed out). But I cannot, in good conscience, say that the salvation of all (INCLUDING SATAN AND DEMONS) is the most plausible, most evident eschatological position rendered out by scripture.
I cannot see the author of Revelation actually believing that Satan and his demons would end up being saved. Can you?
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/7/2006 11:40:48 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 1/7/2006 12:49 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Yeah. Yesterday, I went to the gym and hung out with my son. So that is why there was no response.
Meph Man: For your contention to have any bite, you would have to argue that the post-rock-bottom experience is a state where the person can't even CONCEIVE of the actual existence of any other being outside of themselves and God. That they definitely don't remember the existence of other possible beings. On what basis would you argue that? Not even CS Lewis's view of hell says that. Not even DOC'S view says that!
Moi: Frankly, Meph Man I think you are seeing what you really want to see on this point “for where LFW really counts.” The first thing I thought of was, “OK. So such a person would be deliberating NOTHINGNESS.“ That, in fact, is what you are saying. I wouldn’t say that they can’t conceive of anything. They could conceive of EVERYTHING, but it really wouldn’t be a VIABLE OPTION and they would soon find out that they are in fact deliberating with themselves and themselves only (the reality of the situation. Remember, it is ONLY them and God in the room). That it would all be illusionary. THAT would be the only “plausible deliberation“ which ISN’T VERY plausible. And let’s remember, this is suppose to be at the point in which ALL false pretense is supposed to be disposed of. There is not suppose to be ANY deception or illusion at this point and such a person is left with only his/her naked-post-rock bottom self and God. So conceive what you want. Flowers. Daisies. Dandelions. Think happy thoughts. But when it is just you and God in the room, I don’t see that that leaves very many choices for you to love God freely. So, with Tom, I can’t accept your proposition.
Another question, just for clarity sake. Something just doesn’t sit right with me here. This has ALWAYS been one of my big issues. In such a painful existence, with only your naked self and God why would anyone continue to deliberate this “back and forth” response to God? Maybe I’m missing something here, but when Corey says:
This is why I've kept using the word "absurd" over and over... they've been presented with some appeals, but haven't had "ears to hear"; it's dismissed as nonsense.
I mean, you yourself have said that Hitler would say, “Never” even at this point because there is supposedly some “plausible option out there” for them. It seems to me that as I said so many pages ago, that hell has been “adjusted downward” such that a person in this existence would still, in vain, attempt to find (deliberate) something OTHER THAN GOD. So it seems that hell HAS to be this place in which they find some satisfaction (because for some beings it will be AEONS before they make the “leap of faith” towards the true source of happiness). This is why I find validity in what Walls says with regard to their being some gratification for them not only going there but STAYING there. I mean the whole thing (deliberating) seems to be such a fluke to me. Anyway, I’m just looking for some clarification on this.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 1/7/2006 11:53:00 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 1:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon: (emphasis mine)
Frankly, Meph Man I think you are seeing what you really want to see on this point “for where LFW really counts.” The first thing I thought of was, “OK. So such a person would be deliberating NOTHINGNESS.“ That, in fact, is what you are saying. I wouldn’t say that they can’t conceive of anything. They could conceive of EVERYTHING, but it really wouldn’t be a VIABLE OPTION and they would soon find out that they are in fact deliberating with themselves and themselves only (the reality of the situation. Remember, it is ONLY them and God in the room). That it would all be illusionary. THAT would be the only “plausible deliberation“ which ISN’T VERY plausible. And let’s remember, this is suppose to be at the point in which ALL false pretense is supposed to be disposed of. There is not suppose to be ANY deception or illusion at this point and such a person is left with only his/her naked-post-rock bottom self and God. So conceive what you want. Flowers. Daisies. Dandelions. Think happy thoughts. But when it is just you and God in the room, I don’t see that that leaves very many choices for you to love God freely. So, with Tom, I can’t accept your proposition.
Have you re-read what we have been saying here? You bolded part is NOT the case.
In the former incarnation of my thought, it WAS that way. Now it's different. There is room for UNCLARITY about what or who can truly help them with the futility case. And the only way that someone can psychologically believe something RATIONALLY is if they can really see it as a viable option. There is space for this post-rock-bottom. We're not just talking about "thinking happy thoughts" ************************* Brandon: Another question, just for clarity sake. Something just doesn’t sit right with me here. This has ALWAYS been one of my big issues. In such a painful existence, with only your naked self and God why would anyone continue to deliberate this “back and forth” response to God? Maybe I’m missing something here, but when Corey says:
This is why I've kept using the word "absurd" over and over... they've been presented with some appeals, but haven't had "ears to hear"; it's dismissed as nonsense.
I mean, you yourself have said that Hitler would say, “Never” even at this point because there is supposedly some “plausible option out there” for them. It seems to me that as I said so many pages ago, that hell has been “adjusted downward” such that a person in this existence would still, in vain, attempt to find (deliberate) something OTHER THAN GOD. So it seems that hell HAS to be this place in which they find some satisfaction (because for some beings it will be AEONS before they make the “leap of faith” towards the true source of happiness). This is why I find validity in what Walls says with regard to their being some gratification for them not only going there but STAYING there. I mean the whole thing (deliberating) seems to be such a fluke to me. Anyway, I’m just looking for some clarification on this. Dude, I'm getting lost. I really need for you to hone down EXACTLY what your problems are so that I try to get at them. It's probably me...but I ain't seeing your issue here. Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/7/2006 12:12:28 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/7/2006 1:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Anybody read The Great Giveaway: Reclaiming the Mission of the Church from Big Business, Parachurch Organizations, Psychotherapy, Consumer Capitalism, and Other Modern Maladies (Baker, 2005) by David Fitch?
You can find a discussion of it at Scott McKnight’s blog here: http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=659
What becomes of the Church’s mission given Universalism?
Tom
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 1:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
What becomes of the Church’s mission given Universalism?
It's the same as it has always been. Our mission is to be a people who live in God's Kingdom in this world, testify to the reality of Jesus being Lord of Creation, and bring God's Spirit-led rule to the heart of others.
How does Universalism change that?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 1/7/2006 2:24 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Meph: I can take solace in knowing that SOMEDAY this human being will experience the love of God in their lives. SOMEDAY, whether in this life...or all the way to the rock-bottom experience...this person will be freed from their compusions and enjoy loving relationships with others.
They do NOT end up in some eternal conscious torment.
They do NOT end up enduring suffering and then passing out of existence, never again to know love.
A perfectly loving God won't allow such utter loss, when it's in God's power to prevent it.
Jeff: Tie this together for me, Meph. I take it you're relating God's appreciation of beauty to God's perfect love in a correlative way. And a way which implies that missing out on the experience of love is a kind of "harm." If this is the case, then wouldn't it follow that God would NOT do this ressurection/salvation process in a time sequence as Doc argues?
In other words, if there are people dead right now, why not judge them NOW and ressurect them into God's love so they can cease missing out on enjoying loving relationships with others? Why postpone it 'til some future time? Wouldn't this seem to imply that some formal timing of a plan gives God more beauty than CURRENTLY EXISTING loving relationships? How do we account for the postponement of loving relationships if these relationships are what God derives so much satisfaction from? Is this beyond God's power?
For if eternal death is ultimate harm that God would not allow, why would He allow the harm of death to continue for hundreds of thousands of years? How does such a postponement contribute to the TELOS?
Post Edited (jefscott) : 1/7/2006 1:52:09 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/7/2006 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
Tie this together for me, Meph. I take it you're relating God's appreciation of beauty to God's perfect love in a correlative way. And a way which implies that missing out on the experience of love is a kind of "harm." If this is the case, then wouldn't it follow that God would NOT do this ressurection/salvation process in a time sequence as Doc argues?
In other words, if there are people dead right now, why not judge them NOW and ressurect them into God's love so they can cease missing out on enjoying loving relationships with others? Why postpone it 'til some future time? Wouldn't this seem to imply that some formal timing of a plan gives God more beauty than CURRENTLY EXISTING loving relationships? How do we account for the postponement of loving relationships if these relationships are what God derives so much satisfaction from? Is this beyond God's power?
For if eternal death is ultimate harm that God would not allow, why would He allow the harm of death to continue for hundreds of thousands of years? How does such a postponement contribute to the TELOS?
How do YOU currently understand these questions to be answered? Including your prospective telos. Spell it all out, please.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/7/2006 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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