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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject) | Forum Quick Jump
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|  churchmouse522 Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 163 | Posted 4/4/2002 12:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | I have a new signature, and I was wondering if anyone else could relate. (See below)
Mouse
"For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance." ˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  churchmouse522 Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 163 | Posted 4/4/2002 12:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | I guess a less misleading topic heading would have been: "Anybody feeling ignorant?" Oh well. The old bait and switch. 
Mouse
"For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance." ˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  trosie Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 550 | Posted 4/4/2002 3:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: "For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance." ˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard
I wonder if that's why they say "Ignorance is bliss?" 
I like the signature!  trosie
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 |  Semeia Registered Member
 Date Joined Aug 2001 Total Posts : 522 | Posted 4/5/2002 7:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | Mouse,
At the rate I'm going, I'd have to live to a hundred and twenty just to make a dent in the booklist I have started. Every book that I pick up seems to lead to ten more that I need to read just to understand the one in hand.
And just when I think I understand something, something else comes along that makes it irrelevant or obsolete.
When I was younger I thought at some point I would feel educated, but all I feel is amazement at how much there is to know, and how impossible it is to know much of anything. Sometimes I'll be at Borders and I'll look up at a shelf of books and it will suddenly hit me how much struggling and learning and living over hundreds of years went into producing them - and it almost hurts to think about it. I was just thinking about it yesterday while reading Ethics. I thought of Bonhoeffer's life, how incredible it was, the insights he had, the time and place in history in which he lived, how he was called upon to use what he had learned in the most powerful way anyone ever can be: by giving his life. And if it was just the story of his life that had been left us, that by itself would be a legacy and a gift. But he left these ideas that have so much life in them more than half a century later, and perhaps for hundreds of years to come. And holding this book in my hand I think of how at some certain moment he sat and thought, and perhaps pressed his fingers across his temples or adjusted his glasses, lost in concentration, writing and rewriting, the words themselves taking shape from nothing into something that changes everything.
Like a figure ground reversal, everything looking different. And the singular unique individual life that he lived somehow creating something that reaches into the future,which continues to act as a creative force. Most of us will never write a book, or paint a painting, but I wonder how much of what we are, for good or ill, pushes forward beyond us, like dominoes set in motion and falling in waves away from us with every step.
As for not knowing, and making mistakes: I love these lines by T.S.Eliot, from Four Quartets:
......................Do not let me hear Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly, Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
Thanks, Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Seymour Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2002 Total Posts : 105 | Posted 4/6/2002 7:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Mouse,
At the rate I'm going, I'd have to live to a hundred and twenty just to make a dent in the booklist I have started. Every book that I pick up seems to lead to ten more that I need to read just to understand the one in hand.
And just when I think I understand something, something else comes along that makes it irrelevant or obsolete.
When I was younger I thought at some point I would feel educated, but all I feel is amazement at how much there is to know, and how impossible it is to know much of anything. Sometimes I'll be at Borders and I'll look up at a shelf of books and it will suddenly hit me how much struggling and learning and living over hundreds of years went into producing them - and it almost hurts to think about it.
Semeia I've got another book you can add to your list. Its called Information Anxiety. Its about the discrepancy between what we know and what we feel a responsiblity to know. Its really rather funny. Go here to check it outwww.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-0385243944-9
AND STOP GOING TO BOARDERS!!! Powells is so much healther, and you'll feel better about yourself. And they do sell books new also. Plus they give you free shipping for orders over 50$ and you know that your supporting a good group of folks.www.powells.com/
quote: I was just thinking about it yesterday while reading Ethics. I thought of Bonhoeffer's life, how incredible it was, the insights he had, the time and place in history in which he lived, how he was called upon to use what he had learned in the most powerful way anyone ever can be: by giving his life.
Anther reason why you should read The Gift of Death. www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-0226143066-0
quote: But he left these ideas that have so much life in them more than half a century later, and perhaps for hundreds of years to come.... Like a figure ground reversal, everything looking different. And the singular unique individual life that he lived somehow creating something that reaches into the future,which continues to act as a creative force. Most of us will never write a book, or paint a painting, but I wonder how much of what we are, for good or ill, pushes forward beyond us, like dominoes set in motion and falling in waves away from us with every step.
Another reason why we should believe in fate. And another reason why you should watch Red and read Nietzsche.
So hurry up! To help you navagate thru all of these books I'll just order you around. Because it is always easier to take legalistic orders right? I think so, and I am always humbly right!
So first things first. Read Holy the Firm because it only takes 1&1/2 hours to read it. But it is soooo good and there is so much in it that your going to want to read it once every day in the morning. So make it a disipline to read it once a day.
During the rest of your ever shrinking day pick of the Vintage version of The Brothers Karamazov and work on that for a month or so. After that await further orders. This message will self destruct in T minus 5 seconds...4...3...2...1KABLU-EEEE
Alas, we always already begin a lifetime or two behind.[sigh]
EMILY: “Oh, earth, you’re too wonderful for anybody to realize you. Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it?--every, every minute?” STAGE MANAGER: “No. The saints and poets, maybe--they do some.”
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 |  churchmouse522 Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 163 | Posted 4/6/2002 8:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | Semeia,
Very nice. I notice that as I get older I am more comfortable saying "I don't really know" and less comfortable stating a position. Cowardice? Probably.
Maybe it would be better to say it this way: I have fewer things that I feel comfortable stating strongly, but those few things become more and more important to speak rightly, so I am more inclined to listen and turn things over in my mind for a while. Thank you for giving me something beautiful to listen to and to turn over in my mind.
And Seymour:
Thanks for the reading imperatives. Somebody asked me the other day what I was currently reading and it occurred to me that I was reading six books simultaneously. I can't fit anymore...for a while anyway. This being and becoming stuff is tough and it often gives me a headache. Mouse
"For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance." ˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 4/6/2002 8:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | Perhaps the greatest benefit in learning is that it acclimates one to ambiguity.
But THAT is well worth the effort.
Living happily in, without being devoured, it is a rare art.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
 |  BJS Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2001 Total Posts : 587 | Posted 4/7/2002 3:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | You are all testifying to things that have been literally ringing in my ears of late!
Let me ask you guys this: If ambiguity is inevitable, how can God hold anyone accountable for missing the boat? To be perfectly honest, Miss E's position that when it comes to salvation, truth is less important than one's heart (i.e., good "intentions") is becoming more and more appealing to me.
Does this make sense to anyone?
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Springs Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 636 | Posted 4/8/2002 11:11 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hola. From the Dominican! Isn't the internet great! Mouse you are one of the most intelligent people I know! But yeah, I had a taste of that after I read the post Modes made the day you posted this!
I can't wait to catch up on all the good conversations, but I'm not in any hurry to get home, it is paradise here.
I was made for this! God is good. All the time.
blessings Springs
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." Ps. 19:1 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  churchmouse522 Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 163 | Posted 4/8/2002 5:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Girl,
How addicted do you have to be to check the discussion board from a beach on the carribean? GO HAVE FUN!!!
Mouse
"For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance." ˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
  |  churchmouse522 Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 163 | Posted 4/9/2002 5:09 PM (GMT -6) |   | Welcome Tim!!! What part of this discussion is interesting to you?
Mouse
"For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance." ˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Matthew Timothy Short Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002 Total Posts : 635 | Posted 4/10/2002 1:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | "For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance." ˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard
Doc: Perhaps the greatest benefit in learning is that it acclimates one to ambiguity. But THAT is well worth the effort. Living happily in, without being devoured, it is a rare art.
Brent: If ambiguity is inevitable, how can God hold anyone accountable for missing the boat? To be perfectly honest, Miss E's position that when it comes to salvation, truth is less important than one's heart (i.e., good "intentions") is becoming more and more appealing to me.
Does this make sense to anyone?
Tim: Yes, ambiguity is inevitable, however, I believe the Bible is not doubtful or uncertain, particularly as to the significance of its language, when it comes to salvation. In addition, as for truth, is it less important than one’s heart, I ask you, "is it?"
Job 14:4Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one.
Job 15:14What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 25:4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?
Jer 17:9The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Does this make sense to anyone?
In God’s Love,
Tim
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
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 |  BJS Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2001 Total Posts : 587 | Posted 4/10/2002 4:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Tim: Yes, ambiguity is inevitable, however, I believe the Bible is not doubtful or uncertain, particularly as to the significance of its language, when it comes to salvation.
So ambiguity is inevitable in everything BUT the doctrine of salvation? Is that what you are saying? Hmmmmmm. . .I don't think so. To concede that "ambiguity is inevitable" is to make a general statement about our epistemological ability. That is, certainty about truth is not possible.
If the verses that you quoted are so clear, unambiguous, and certain in their meaning regarding salvation, then everyone who believes that the Bible is God's Word should come to the same conclusion about salvation. As you know, that is hardly the case.
Yes, man's "heart" is "deceitfully wicked." However, we are left with nothing else in our attempt to distinguish between truth and untruth. We are expected to use our "hearts"("minds", whatever) to choose God. All I am saying is that perhaps those who have the best of intentions (i.e., who are honestly trying to find God), but who do not end up getting the "details" exactly right, will be saved. In a world of "inevitable ambiguity," it seems only fair to me.
I think Doc would resolve the ambiguity problem with his "post-mortem" evangelization theory.
Welcome to the board, Tim!
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  selah Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1210 | Posted 4/10/2002 7:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hello Tim! Hope to hear more from you 
love, selah
Below you will find one of my favorite SK quotes... too bad it was too long for my signature 
Just as in earthly life lovers long for the moment when they are able to breathe forth their love for each other, to let their souls blend in a soft whisper, so the mystic longs for the moment when in prayer he can, as it were, creep into God. (Soren Kierkegaard)
I only wish I could write with both hands, so as not to forget one thing while I am saying another. (Saint Teresa of Avila)
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 |  Matthew Timothy Short Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002 Total Posts : 635 | Posted 4/11/2002 1:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Brett: All I am saying is that perhaps those who have the best of intentions (i.e., who are honestly trying to find God), but who do not end up getting the "details" exactly right, will be saved.
Tim: That makes sense! Rather than asking for clarification, I made an assumption, about Miss E's position, when it comes to salvation. I did not get the "details" exactly right, before engaging in a conversation with you, about what thoughts of hers, you clearly meant, to find appealing.
Oh the ambiguity!
Brett: Then everyone who believes that the Bible is God's Word should come to the same conclusion about salvation.
Tim: All I am saying is "I believe the Bible is not doubtful or uncertain, particularly as to the significance of its language…" and Yes! "We are expected to use our "hearts"("minds", whatever) to choose God", with inevitable ambiguity.
Thanks for the welcome Brett and Selah and the quotes.
In God’s Love,
Tim
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
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 |  BJS Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2001 Total Posts : 587 | Posted 4/11/2002 5:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Definitely great to have you here, Tim. I think you'll enjoy it (as long as you don't mind being addicted to it!).
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Terry_Baxter Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2002 Total Posts : 187 | Posted 6/17/2002 1:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | There was a saying in my graduate program (don't know who to attribute it to).
When you get a bachelor's, you think you know everything. When you get a master's, you realize you don't know anything. When you get a PhD, you realize nobody knows anything.
If only I had 10 lifetimes to acquire all the knowledge I wish I had!
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 6/17/2002 2:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | Terry, I heard it somewhat differently.
On the old TV show (50s and 60s) called "Amos and Andy" one of them asked the other what all those letters behind the man's name painted on the door meant. Amos replied to Andy:
Well, Andy...
B.S. -- Well, you knows what that is.
M.S. -- Well, That's more of the same
But Ph. D. -- That's special. That means piled higher and deeper!
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