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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/20/2004 6:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
John Earpquote:
All I'm saying is that Jesus and all those who were inspired to write the Bible apparently had no problem naming sin as sin, and preaching that people must repent or perish. However, in my experience on this board, those in the "love, not judgment" crowd by definition must themselves condemn Jesus and all his apostles, for they all preached about sin, righteousness, and judgment (or, true repentance and faith in Christ).
Paul said to those on Mars Hill that God now commands all men everywhere to repent; nowadays in America, the scriptural truth that "without holiness no one shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14) has basically become anathema.
I realize that each person has a role to play in the body of Christ. I believe some people are called to prophecy while others are called to teach and still others to shepherd yet ALL are to be led by the Spirit with love as the motivating force. Paul's primary role was to teach the early churches and disciple them. Jesus' ministry was about setting the captive free and preaching the "good" news of salvation through grace not works. They both were led by the Spirit and were motivated by love.
Without question our motive in everything we do as Christians must be love. My point all along has been that true love (like God's love for us) reproves, rebukes, and chastens when necessary, as in the following:
2 Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge {you} in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season {and} out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but {wanting} to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Heb 12:3 ¶ For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline?
8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He {disciplines us} for {our} good, so that we may share His holiness.
11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
12 ¶ Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that {the limb} which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14 ¶ Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; (All scriptures NASB)
Also, it is not "works vs. grace" but "obedience as a result of grace" that I find the Scripture to most clearly teach. We can never in a million years of obedience to God make up for one instance of disobedience (sin) in our lives. We can never earn any merit before God whatsoever, and we can never deserve anything BUT hell forever. All that we may receive from God is sheer grace and mercy towards us bestowed because of his great love for us.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/20/2004 6:58 PM (GMT -6) | | When you love God completely and care for others as you care for yourself, then you have fulfilled the intent of the Ten Commandments and the other Old Testament laws. According to Jesus, these two commandments summarize all God’s laws.
.
Matthew 22:34-40 (NIV)
Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NIV)
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Those who sincerely desire to be taught their duty, Christ will guide in judgment, and teach his way. He tells the scribe that the great commandment, which indeed includes all, is, that of loving God with all our hearts. Wherever this is the ruling principle in the soul, there is a disposition to every other duty. Loving God with all our heart, will engage us to every thing by which he will be pleased. The sacrifices only represented the atonements for men’s transgressions of the moral law; they were of no power except as they expressed repentance and faith in the promised Saviour, and as they led to moral obedience. And because we have not thus loved God and man, but the very reverse, therefore we are condemned sinners; we need repentance, and we need mercy.
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/21/2004 3:46 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp quote:
Without question our motive in everything we do as Christians must be love. My point all along has been that true love (like God's love for us) reproves, rebukes, and chastens when necessary
might-be-don quote:
Maybe I missed something... Doesn't the "love, not judgment" crowd advocate the same thing that John is saying? The "love, not judgment" crowd adds only that we do these things in relationship.
We reprove, rebuke, and chasten when in relationship? I can honestly tell you that if you make a list of which sins to focus on (since we all sin it's important you decide which ones to focus on) and then begin to reprove your wife or chasten your children each time they commit one of the sins on your list, you will most likely wage a dagger in the relationship and they will tune in with a deaf ear. Doing this when necessary may be key but you still must keep in mind that only God knows the heart of the person so the Spirit alone must do the leading in giving us discernment in knowing when to speak and when to keep silent.
I believe the love not judgment theme is that when we try to get life off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil by playing the judge we are not completing what we were created to be doing -- LOVING. Unless the Spirit (and only the Spirit) puts on your heart to speak you should remain silent and allow the Spirit to do the job instead of you. We do not need to do more than what God tells us to do. We are to walk by the Spirit not the flesh. The Spirit sees beyond the physical into the heart.
I believe what Sparknheart said fits with this theme:
quote:
Those who sincerely desire to be taught their duty, Christ will guide in judgment, and teach his way. He tells the scribe that the great commandment, which indeed includes all, is, that of loving God with all our hearts.
I agree! We are called to love God with all our hearts and allow the Spirit to guide us.
Accentuate the positive. Since God tells us to become like children I think we should practice learning from them. It has been proven that children thrive and learn much more when reinforced for the positives they do then when reprimanded for the negative. I agree with you, might-be-don, we should spend our energy encouraging each other in the good that they do...
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/21/2004 6:29 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by John Earp
In the past on this board, many including Dr. Boyd have made it quite clear what they mean by "love, not judgement": That is, we must never tell sodomites that what they're doing is sinful, or for that matter, what anybody is doing is sinful, for that would be "judgmental."
This assertion they base on Bonhoeffer's idea that "there is no Christian ethic." (I hardly can believe the same author penned The Cost of Discipleship)
Greg: JOHN! COME ON. After all that discussion, THIS is what you came away with? How discouraging.  You're totally mistaken... but if all our previous discussion left you with this impression, I lack confidence that any further conversation will clarify things.
Regretfully
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/21/2004 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
[quote]Originally posted by John Earp
In the past on this board, many including Dr. Boyd have made it quite clear what they mean by "love, not judgement": That is, we must never tell sodomites that what they're doing is sinful, or for that matter, what anybody is doing is sinful, for that would be "judgmental."
This assertion they base on Bonhoeffer's idea that "there is no Christian ethic." (I hardly can believe the same author penned The Cost of Discipleship)
Greg: JOHN! COME ON. After all that discussion, THIS is what you came away with? How discouraging. You're totally mistaken... but if all our previous discussion left you with this impression, I lack confidence that any further conversation will clarify things.
Regretfully
Doc
Dear Doctor Boyd,
If I have mistaken your position, I am sincerely sorry. My impression in the past has been precisely as I stated above. In the past several months, I have sincerely hoped that I was mistaken about your views. If I have been mistaken, I will gladly retract any statements I have made about this subject.
Please also know how highly I respect you, and how deeply concerned I have been that one of my absolute favorite theologians would not be clearly against homosexual activity. I would truly love nothing more than to find that I have been mistaken about this.
Sincerely,
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/21/2004 7:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Maybe I missed something... Doesn't the "love, not judgment" crowd advocate the same thing that John is saying? The "love, not judgment" crowd adds only that we do these things in relationship.
Were the OT prophets, Jesus, or the NT apostles "in relationship" with everyone that they exhorted to repent? On the Day of Pentecost, did Peter have close friendships with all these thousands of people whom he told to repent? Do you really think Jesus had a close relationship with the Pharisees whom he sternly rebuked? Or with the large crowds he preached the material in the Sermon on the Mount to?
quote:
I kinda like to put a positive spin on this kind of thing...
Hebrews 10
24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
Rather than *concentrating* on pointing out faults, how can I encourge folks toward doing the good things. That will leave much less time for the bad.
Great point, and I certainly agree that we must give positive encouragement too. My primary concern in all this has been that the message I've been hearing from the "love, not judgment" crowd has been that we should basically never point out sin in others for any reason at all, for that would be judgmental. If that is not what they have meant, I am quite glad to hear it.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/21/2004 8:38 AM (GMT -6) | |
Honorman; Brother.
I am saddened by your words.
This is exactly the kind of retort that prompted me to "object" to the way you verbally "interact" with some individuals (myself, included) on this board. Sir, words wound.
At times, your words have made me weep.
This is one of those times.
<><
quote:
01/20/2004 : 2:12:39
Honor man wrote:
If you are mistaken, John, then take comfort in the fact that you are not the only one. A pastor who will not come out clearly against sin should be concern for all Christians.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/21/2004 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Laika,
I am only stating what seemed to be clear to me from past discussions here about a year or so ago. I think they were prior to your arrival here. I am definitely not wanting to misrepresent Dr. Boyd's views.
On the following page of Doc's website:
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=375
Dr. Boyd said this about homosexuality:
New Testament teachings on greed
1 Corinthians 5:10–11 | Note: the sin of greed is as bad as sexual immorality.
1 Corinthians 6:10 | Note: the sin of greed is as bad as drunkenness and homosexuality.
(end quote)
However, as I said, his comments in discussions we have had in the past have definitely made me wonder about whether or not Dr. Boyd still maintains the same views as those expressed in the above statements.
Again, I would truly love to find out that I have been mistaken. This has been a worry to me for over a year now, but due to the atmosphere engendered here at that time by Iconoclast, Empiress, and others in the pro-sodomy camp, I have been disinclined to even discuss this here.
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 1/21/2004 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Were the OT prophets, Jesus, or the NT apostles "in relationship" with everyone that they exhorted to repent? On the Day of Pentecost, did Peter have close friendships with all these thousands of people whom he told to repent? Do you really think Jesus had a close relationship with the Pharisees whom he sternly rebuked? Or with the large crowds he preached the material in the Sermon on the Mount to?
John,
Just thinking here...
I've always viewed sin as a cause of all the bad stuff we do, not an effect. i.e. We do not sin because we lied, we lied because we sin. By attacking the effects of sin ( lying ) we usually pull out the weed but leave the root to only spring up again. We must repent of sin, getting life apart from God, and turn to God.
Doing the bad stuff is like a barometer, an indicator. We don't try to change the barometer directly by breaking the glass and letting the mercury out, we adjust the conditions that cause the reading.
Well anyway...
peace, don
"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/21/2004 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Again, I would truly love to find out that I have been mistaken. This has been a worry to me for over a year now, but due to the atmosphere engendered here at that time by Iconoclast, Empiress, and others in the pro-sodomy camp, I have been disinclined to even discuss this here.
O.K. but here's where I'm at. I don't know where people stand on this issue and I feel it's none of my business. Perhaps God is calling certain people to reach out to a class of people that has been ostrasized and ignored by the church for so long. Just like the shift that Peter and the other Jews had to go through when Paul started taking the gospel to the <GASP> gentiles.
I have always tried to refrain from making judgment calls on ministries that I don't think are very effective (brother Jeb screaming at college kids on campus, people feeding the same winos day after day, the Catholic church, etc.) because I don't know all the methods and madness of God. Do you? I think trust plays an important part of allowing God to work through other people, you just have to trust that God's will is being accomplished.
Heck, there's missionaries I help support that I'm not totally convinced are being all that effective but I'd rather throw my money that way and trust God's ability. I sure am glad people accepted me into the church before I had entirely cleaned up my act.
Someday I may meet someone who claims to have been converted at a "Christian Death Metal" concert. Makes no sense to me. But why condemn it, God is bigger than my feeble imagination, know what I mean?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/21/2004 9:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Why don't people here who are being questioned about their beliefs simply just say what those beliefs are, here and now? Like this:
I believe that homosexuality is a sin.
I believe that all sins are equal in their disgustingness to God. (Therefore lying, cheating, gossip, etc. is just as bad to God as homosexuality is.)
I believe that we shouldn't focus our attentions on any one sin more than another when exhorting or rebuking people about them.
I agree with your above statements completely, except that I make a distinction between sodomy and the modern term, "homosexuality;" that is, I only find Scripture to condemn homosexual acts, not involuntary impulses or tendencies someone may have.
quote:
John,
If Greg Boyd were to state his beliefs like this - clearly and concisely, would that make you feel more confident that his beliefs are sound?
I am not his judge; I am simply relating the facts as I recall them from our past discussions here during the the fall of 2002 and on into the early months of 2003. Those who witnessed those discussions will recall that those on the traditional side were very much in the minority here, and in many cases became the subject of much denunciation and even mocking at times by those in the "love, not judgment" camp. Those who would not say homosexual activity was permissible were in fact repeatedly accused of being "legalistic" (and therefore not even true Christians, if you think about it, for how can a legalist be truly a Christian?) by the pro-sodomy, pro-gay marriage crowd here. (If the archive function works, these threads should still be available there, but I never can seem to get that feature to work on this board).
Laika: I think you are talking about tactics, not views. Just because one holds to the traditional view on homosexuality doesn't mean they are violent, outspoken, or bombastic in the way they express those views.
Creating a straw man does not really address the issue itself.
And again, I would love nothing more than to find out that I am mistaken about Dr. Boyd's views of homosexuality. I heartily welcome his comments, and would certainly take his response as genuine. Though he and others here have denied that I am even a Christian here (because they say I am "stuck in the legal view," etc.), I am truly interested in hearing what he has to say, and truly bear him and others who have judged me here no ill will whatsoever.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/21/2004 10:52 AM (GMT -6) | | P.S. to Laika:
I have ministered to homosexuals in the past (without condemning or making them feel unwanted), and I by no means would exclude anyone from fellowship who truly wished to follow Christ as a disciple. In my understanding of Scripture, homosexuals can come to Christ and be forgiven, restored, and healed just like any other kind of sinner. And I have known of former practicing homosexuals who were set free from this wicked bondage by the power of Christ's blood and Spirit.
Please don't think that because I find homosexual practice to be utterly incompatible with the scriptural standard for Christian practice that I am therefore a "gay basher," a homophobe, or someone who would ever advocate violence or hatred towards any group of sinners. (Well, I do believe the Bible justifies the death penalty in certain cases, but that's the exception to the general rule).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/21/2004 12:32 PM (GMT -6) | | What possible difference does it make?
This "feels" like a Litmus Test.
If you're genuinely not interested in JUDGING -- what's the purpose in asking Greg this 'loaded' question??
<><
Honorman wrote:
quote:
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 3:19:51 PM
If you are mistaken, John, then take comfort in the fact that you are not the only one.
A pastor who will not come out clearly against sin should be concern for all Christians.
Tigress wrote:
quote:
Why don't people here who are being questioned about their beliefs simply just say what those beliefs are, here and now? Like this:
I believe that homosexuality is a sin.
I believe that all sins are equal in their disgustingness to God. (Therefore lying, cheating, gossip, etc. is just as bad to God as homosexuality is.)
I believe that we shouldn't focus our attentions on any one sin more than another when exhorting or rebuking people about them.
John,
If Greg Boyd were to state his beliefs like this - clearly and concisely, would that make you feel more confident that his beliefs are sound?
Honorman wrote:
quote:
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 2:33:26 PM
Wonderful words, Tigress.
Mayflower, I see nothing in my words that would make you weep, nor that are unloving.
Words wound when I am simply concerned about the beliefs of a brother in Christ...hmmm...
Honorman wrote:
quote:
Is it not okay to ask a public figure what they believe about something? Is it not okay to ask them to clarify such a position? As Christians we all have a responsibility to live lives of holiness. And Paul admonishes teachers because they will be required even more so of God. So I do not think it is wrong to ask Doctor Boyd to clarify his views.
Laika, I hardly think Doctor Boyd is going to strung up on his own site, a site that is basically devoted to his teachings and a bulletin board where most people are highly protective of him. Perhaps what he needs is more challendges like this and less people rushing to his defense. Unless your words were meant in gest, I found them tactless.
Paul constantly challenged those in his charge to keep from sin. He constantly challenged them to live lives pleasing to God. I think we should do the same.
John Earp wrote:
quote:
Honorman,
I have not wanted this to seem as if I'm "calling him out" about this issue, not at all. Nor do I mean to question his integrity.
I simply have concerns based on my experience with this board; in particular, with Dr. Boyd, Iconoclast, Empiress, Modes of Thought, and a few others whose names escape me now.
I sincerely mean to ask this question respectfully of Dr. Boyd. I would think any Christian would be willing to plainly state his or her views on this or any other subject, if sincerely asked. The last thing I would ever want to do is for my questioning of Dr. Boyd to appear as a witch hunt of some kind. If it does appear that way, I am truly sorry, for that is certainly not my intent.
John
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/21/2004 12:48 PM (GMT -6) | | National Geographic: Salem Witch-Hunt -- "Interactive"
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/salem/
<><
_____________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________
UPDATE: January 23, 2004:
A curious turn of events:
Honorman has deleted his (controversial?) posts.
In giving him the benefit of the doubt -- perhaps this means that he reconsidered his "question," and decided to drop it.
If so, I commend him for the change of heart.
Honorman wrote:
quote:
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 3:19:51 PM
If you are mistaken, John, then take comfort in the fact that you are not the only one.
A pastor who will not come out clearly against sin should be concern for all Christians.
Tigress wrote:
quote:
Why don't people here who are being questioned about their beliefs simply just say what those beliefs are, here and now? Like this:
I believe that homosexuality is a sin.
I believe that all sins are equal in their disgustingness to God. (Therefore lying, cheating, gossip, etc. is just as bad to God as homosexuality is.)
I believe that we shouldn't focus our attentions on any one sin more than another when exhorting or rebuking people about them.
John,
If Greg Boyd were to state his beliefs like this - clearly and concisely, would that make you feel more confident that his beliefs are sound?
Honorman wrote:
quote:
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 2:33:26 PM
Wonderful words, Tigress.
Mayflower, I see nothing in my words that would make you weep, nor that are unloving.
Words wound when I am simply concerned about the beliefs of a brother in Christ...hmmm...
Honorman wrote:
quote:
Is it not okay to ask a public figure what they believe about something? Is it not okay to ask them to clarify such a position? As Christians we all have a responsibility to live lives of holiness. And Paul admonishes teachers because they will be required even more so of God. So I do not think it is wrong to ask Doctor Boyd to clarify his views.
Laika, I hardly think Doctor Boyd is going to strung up on his own site, a site that is basically devoted to his teachings and a bulletin board where most people are highly protective of him. Perhaps what he needs is more challendges like this and less people rushing to his defense. Unless your words were meant in gest, I found them tactless.
Paul constantly challenged those in his charge to keep from sin. He constantly challenged them to live lives pleasing to God. I think we should do the same.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 1/21/2004 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | | A couple of thoughts.
1. I think the key issue is the ecclesiastical problem of order. One way or the other we need to accept some fallible rules that will govern how we relate to each other in our ecclesiastical organizations.
I suggest the Bible doesn't set these out in exhaustive detail and that is why historically Christian Churches have relied on both scripture and tradition in this regard, with the latter being correctly understood as fallible and subject to change and not being a basis for Christian unity.
I haven't read Boyd's book, but my general impression so far isn't very favorable in that it strikes me as directing Christians' attentions away from the ecclesiastical problems of order and advancing a certain set of answers as the loving solutions, as illustrated by posts by John Earp and others.
On the other hand, if it is an expression of the problems with many past answers to the ecclesiastical problems of order then that is more legitimate so long as the fact that we still are faced with making fallible decisions on what is the most loving thing we can do for others or what in practice is discernment rather than judgement towards others.
2. As I understand it, fundamental to the differences about homosexuality is the ontological understanding of homosexuality. Generally, doxy and praxy are interrelated. So the fact that how we understand homosexuality differs will lead to us advocate different policies as the most loving way to minister to homosexuals. "pro-sodomites" accept the notion of constitutional homosexuality and the inherent difficulty of changing one's sexual orientation and believe that this is a fact that has scientific backing for it and that Christian Churches need to come to terms with in how we deal with homosexuals. The sodomy that was prevalent in biblical times and rejected is seen as a horse of a different color from monogamous relationships between constitutional homosexuals. Accepting the evidence on this and its relevance, doesn't mean the Church shouldn't have policies condemning as sinful polygamous heterosexual and homosexual lifestyles.
3. IMO, People engaged in these lifestlyes should be encouraged to attend church and sought out for the sharing of the Gospel, but they shouldn't be allowed membership or be able to hold a position of responsibility or leadership. But it is likewise true that sexual sins are among the many sins that plague us and should potentially be under consideration as serving as bars against the above.
Deciding what sort of qualifications should be mandated for such posts is part of the ecclesiastical problem of order. It is part of religion or the structured forms of relationships that guide how we interact with each other to prevent our sinful natures from leading us to committing offences that will add to the sadly long list of ecclesiastical practices that have defamed the name of Christianity.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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