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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/21/2004 4:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | I don't understand what the problem is with asking a pastor his position on an issue especially that relates to a book he wrote? Seeking and asking is the way to unlocking further knowledge and understanding.
Dr. Boyd would you please answer the question presented so that this issue can be settled? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/21/2004 5:47 PM (GMT -6) | | I have finite answers but infinite questions. I agree that the OT moral laws and Ten Commandments are sins and should not be condoned. But I find it interesting that Christians don’t put more emphasis on the Two Commandments Jesus left us with, instead of the Ten Commandments Moses left us with. Is there wiggle room for misinterpretation of Jesus commandments? Why don’t we fight to get them into our public buildings? Or at least get them into our homes and hearts. As so called Christians should we be called on as sinners for falling short of Christ commandments? If so, should we repent for not being loving enough? Why weren’t heretics burnt at the stake for not being loving enough, why aren’t they included in the witch hunts of today?
We are all sinners and no matter how holy we deem ourselves to be, we will always be found guilty of not being loving enough. Can we hold ourselves accountable for lacking love, can we even judge our self as being a loving neighbor, or would our neighbor have to be the judge? You might think your neighbor finds you real loving but in truth he might find you more loving if you return his ladder you borrowed last year. Then again he might find you more loving if he knew you suffer from Alzheimer’s.
Is it out of fear of our own sin or love that we minister; can the homosexual you are ministering too be the only true judge of how loving you are? How can anyone but God judge our own heart? Are we called to judge our neighbor’s heart? Maybe to discern our neighbor’s heart if they open their heart up to you, but to judge… I don’t think so. Considering the deceitful nature of sin, we are fortunate if we can even discern our own heart, let alone someone else’s heart.
It’s vital to have fellowship in Christ such as a small group church just for the purpose of discerning our own heart. Saint Paul said “love is patient, love is kind, etc”, but I think he left one out, love is hard! And if you don’t think so get married or love a dark sinner, or love the guy that cuts you off on the freeway, or your enemy who hates you, or your son who is gay. If any of us think we are always full of love then I submit that you might also be full of something else.
Maybe the Ten Commandments are convenient because we can feel good about finding at least one out of the ten that each of us can keep and obey. “I will restrain myself from killing anyone today but to love… wow that is hard”. It certainly is easer to judge if I killed my neighbor then to judge if I love them. But should we still not try to teach love first and foremost? Should we promote Jesus’ commandments with all of our heart, if we did would there still be such a great need to attack other sins? When we attack other sins are we just attacking the symptoms of someone who is breaking Jesus’ commandments? Are we just treating the symptoms and not the cause?
Is it sin we hate or the sinner? If your answer is sin, whose sin do you hate more, yours or mine?
Is it not through God’s love that we are transformed from our sinful nature and turn away from sin, or does love just permit or condone sin? Have God’s children gotten out of control with love, have the lunatics taken over the love asylum??
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/23/2004 2:18 AM (GMT -6) | | DLWquote:
Tigress this is a serious thread and Laika was trying to make a point about the asking of litmus-test questions.
GBoyd has been assailed and slandered too often and OVTheism has often been a collateral casualty and so it isn't surprising that many here are defensive of such question-asking.
sparknheartquote:
Thanks Laika for capturing the spirit, bless you for turning my joy to laughter.
Are you kidding me?! On this board people cannot ask a pastor/author of a book his position on an issue without it being a witch hunt? This is too weird! If this be the case I'm outta hear!
LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE! 
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 1/23/2004 2:38 AM (GMT -6) | | I think that Greg is FAR too wise to make a blanket statement about homosexuality that can be taken out of context, twisted and used against him, only thwarting the headway he has made in ministering to homosexuals.
I am currently having a discussion with a fourteen year old girl I met on the Good Charlotte website. (long story) She has repeatedly announced that she is bisexual. One day, I just asked her, "are you really bi, or are you just experimenting? I guess you won't know that until you're done experimenting, huh?" She came back with the conclusion she has been experimenting, and in recent weeks has discontinued this practice. Did I condemn her? Did I point a finger or make a judgement call? Did I throw Bible verses at her? (yes, she is a Christian) No, all I did was plant a seed with a question and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I didn't even bring the subject up again, she did.
In my estimation, this is something of what Greg has/is trying to say I'm assuming in his new book, and as I have heard him on several occasions.
"Repenting of Religion"---that title is SHEER GENIUS!!!
 this sheep is the cutest guy ever!
sbg
"We need every different bead on this same string." Nicole Nordeman | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/23/2004 3:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Amen, Brother (or, Sister!)...
<><
SGB wrote:
quote:
I think that Greg is FAR too wise to make a
blanket statement about homosexuality that can be taken
out of context, twisted and used against him, only thwarting the headway he has made in ministering to homosexuals.
I am currently having a discussion with a fourteen year old girl I met on the Good Charlotte website. (long story) She has repeatedly announced that she is bisexual. One day, I just asked her, "are you really bi, or are you just experimenting? I guess you won't know that until you're done experimenting, huh?" She came back with the conclusion she has been experimenting, and in recent weeks has discontinued this practice.
Did I condemn her? Did I point a finger or make a judgement call? Did I throw Bible verses at her? (yes, she is a Christian)
No, all I did was plant a seed with a question and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I didn't even bring the subject up again, she did.
In my estimation, this is something of what Greg has/is trying to say I'm assuming in his new book, and as I have heard him on several occasions.
"Repenting of Religion"---that title is SHEER GENIUS!!!
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/23/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the apology DLW.  I guess when I was reading the last few pages I couldn't understand why people were trying to make jokes to lighten up the conversation. What I understood some of the posters to be seeking was an understanding of where Greg stood with an issue. I thought that was a genuine/valid question. I hadn't any idea, until it was just brought up, that Greg doesn't want to do damage to the ministry he is involved with.
I agree with those who have posted that we need to be very careful and gentle when working with and helping people in not putting a wall up by making judgments but rather posing questions for thought when appropriate that can plant food for thought.... | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 1/23/2004 6:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by S.B.G.
I think that Greg is FAR too wise to make a blanket statement about homosexuality that can be taken out of context, twisted and used against him,
I really don't think that anybody has this intent. It's just a question. Dr. Boyd encourages dialog all the time.
quote:
only thwarting the headway he has made in ministering to homosexuals.
I have been at Woodland Hills for about a year, and this is the first I have heard about this ministry. I think that's great! However I don't think that it is a ministry to encourage the behavior. His heart on this as I see it in church is to see their lives transformed, through the blood of Christ. You know, giving them time to heal, counseling them, encouraging them
quote:
I am currently having a discussion with a fourteen year old girl I met on the Good Charlotte website. (long story) She has repeatedly announced that she is bisexual. One day, I just asked her, "are you really bi, or are you just experimenting? I guess you won't know that until you're done experimenting, huh?" She came back with the conclusion she has been experimenting, and in recent weeks has discontinued this practice. Did I condemn her? Did I point a finger or make a judgement call? Did I throw Bible verses at her? (yes, she is a Christian) No, all I did was plant a seed with a question and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I didn't even bring the subject up again, she did.
Thanks for sharing that story. It sounds like from what you shared that this girl opened up to you. It’s great that this person has discontinued this behavior. I must admit that I am a little taken back by what you said here though. I have some questions.
1. What do you mean by you didn’t condemn her or make a judgement call?
2. What do you mean by you didn’t throw bible verses at her?
I guess I am really confused on what the bible says, and what people on this site are saying in regard to not judging. I feel at times I am hearing to different things. Now it is obvious that you care for this person. Do you think that you would have been judging her or condemning her if you would have said something like, “Gee…ah, don’t you think that is dangerous?” “Why do you think you are doing those things?” “You should stop.” “You know the bible says…” I mean with what you shared with us here about this girl it seems to me like this is something that needs some urgency in being dealt with. Let me put it another way.
Say she is doing cocaine, and you ask her if she is really an addict or if she is just experimenting. Would your response be the same, i.e “I guess you won’t know until you are done experimenting?” Would you consider yourself as self-righteous and condemning and judgemental if you told her, out of truth and love, that that behavior is wrong, dangerous, destructive, hurtful? How about this scenario.
Say that your husband is looking at pornography. Do you say to him, “Gee, honey, look at some more porn and see if this is something that you really like” Do you confront that? Do tell him that it is wrong, destructive, hurtful.
And this confrontation is not a self-righteous confrontation I am talking about. I am talking about a Nathan and David confrontation, 2 Sam 12. Out of genuine love and in truth you say to this person, “Look at what is going on here”, “Be honest with yourself about what you are doing” It’s not a point the finger kind of confrontation like, “well, at least I don’t do that sin”, or that negative commentary in your mind about the person, but that you really care for the person and it grieves you heart to see them in whatever they are in. I don’t consider this the judging Jesus is talking about in Mat. 7. I don’t think that this is condemnation.
Now, I do know someone who blasphemes God’s name and then at the same time says of homosexuals that “we are better than them, because we are living for the Lord” Now that to me is what Jesus is definitely talking about it Mt 7(speck and log in your eye) and being judgemental. Now, I could , while still ascribing infinite worth and love to this brother say, “Have you ever read Matt. 7?” And in truth and love point out the fact that he is sinning because he has a log when trying to point out a speck. Right? I’m serious. Are we not supposed to gently bring someone back while not falling into sin like Paul said in Gal 6:1? We are supposed to judge then right? Just not the self-righteous, negative commentary judging, but rather, “Hey, this is what the word of God says, and this is what you should do about it.”
So in your heart you wanted not to judge (self-righteous) this person for their behavior, but at the same time you NEEDED to judge(Nathan and David) this person for their behavior.
This is what I think Tigress, Honorman and John Earp are saying.
<><
Jim
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/23/2004 7:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Here are some scripture verses that fit with what you wrote, Jim:
1Corinthian 5:9-13 "In the letter that I wrote you I told you not to associate with immoral people. Now I did not mean pagans who are immoral or greedy or are thieves, or who worship idols. To avoid them you would have to get out of the world completely. What I meant was that you should not associate with a person who calls himself a brother but is immoral or greedy or worships idols or a thief. Don't even sit down to eat with such a person. After all, it is none of my business to judge outsiders. God will judge them. But should you not judge the members of your own fellowship? As the scripture says, 'Remove the evil man from your group'."
The one problem I have with those verses is the generalization and categorizing. A person is too complex to be taken in whole, to be judged for an action separate from the total person. I believe we can be too hasty in judging and generalizing people. Each person has been uniquely created hence each situation must be separately assessed before one can know what the appropriate response should be. Perhaps the way that S.B.G. responded to this young woman was the most appropriate given the relationship they had and the information that was known.....
ONLY God knows the heart and that is why we NEED the Spirit to guide and direct us in our interactions. We need to be motivated by LOVE. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/24/2004 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Jim_Mottl
[ Now that to me is what Jesus is definitely talking about it Mt 7(speck and log in your eye) and being judgemental. Now, I could , while still ascribing infinite worth and love to this brother say, “Have you ever read Matt. 7?” And in truth and love point out the fact that he is sinning because he has a log when trying to point out a speck. Right? I’m serious.
Jim, I Beleive Matthew 7:1 was directed towards the reader, we should use caution when we wield the sword of the Spirit.
Matthew 7:1-5 (NLT)
"Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, 'Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye.
7:1-2 Jesus tells us to examine our own motives and conduct instead of judging others. The traits that bother us in others are often the habits we dislike in ourselves. Our untamed bad habits and behavior patterns are the very ones that we most want to change in others. Do you find it easy to magnify others’ faults while excusing your own? If you are ready to criticize someone, check to see if you deserve the same criticism. Judge yourself first, and then lovingly forgive and help your neighbor.
7:1-5 Jesus’ statement, “Do not judge,” is against the kind of hypocritical, judgmental attitude that tears others down in order to build oneself up. It is not a blanket statement against all critical thinking, but a call to be discerning rather than negative. Jesus said to expose false teachers (Matthew 7:15-23), and Paul taught that we should exercise church discipline (1 Cor. 5:1-2) and trust God to be the final Judge (1 Cor. 4:3-5).
quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Here are some scripture verses that fit with what you wrote, Jim:
1Corinthian 5:9-13 "it is none of my business to judge outsiders. God will judge them. But should you not judge the members of your own fellowship? As the scripture says, 'Remove the evil man from your group'."
QFT, I agree with you that each relationship and circumstance is different. "Remove the evil man from your group". I would believe 2000 years ago that group was relatively small and much easier to discern then today’s world and it’s platforms. quote:
Originally posted by S.B.G.
Did I point a finger or make a judgement call? Did I throw Bible verses at her? (yes, she is a Christian) No, all I did was plant a seed with a question and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I didn't even bring the subject up again, she did.
S.B.G, God Bless you!
Ephes. 6:10-17 (NLT)
A final word: Be strong with the Lord's mighty power. Put on all of God's armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies and tricks of the Devil. For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms.
[13] Use every piece of God's armor to resist the enemy in the time of evil, so that after the battle you will still be standing firm. Stand your ground, putting on the sturdy belt of truth and the body armor of God's righteousness. For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News, so that you will be fully prepared. In every battle you will need faith as your shield to stop the fiery arrows aimed at you by Satan. [17] Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
I believe Ephesians 6:10-17 should be taken to heart when we encounter sin. Remember we are not fighting against people; people are only the carriers of sin.
The strength of a sinner’s relationship with God is essential in the depth of sin that can be ministered to. When you are invited into the foyer it does not give you permission to go into the bedroom. We should take caution when we wield the sword of the SPIRIT, someone might get an eye poked out. But, I think it is a different battlefield when the sword is needed to call upon the clergy.
I’m not a member of WHC (maybe someday) so I don’t know their position and stance to the following article: http://pittsburgh.goarch.org/news/2003-08-11-anglicanresponse.html that I found online about gay clergymen. Gene Robinson agrees that his opponents are right that his election “was contrary to the church’s traditional teaching against homosexuality.” But, he added: “Just simply to say that it goes against tradition and the teaching of the church and scripture does not necessarily make it wrong. We worship a living God, and God leads us into the truth.”
If a gay clergymen agrees that going against scripture is not wrong and that he is being lead to truth, who’s truth is he talking about, Gods or His? Is this what we call repenting of religion? I usually think I can use the litmus-test of love when in doubt about discerning myself from God, to know if it is truly the Holy Spirit or the deceitful Prince of Darkness so coyly masquerading around as myself. If I have any shadow of doubt what spirits I'm following, I strive not to hesitate and resolve it with scripture. With that said, let us pray for such as those that the devil pursues so vigorously called the "Holy Ones". Is the Pope Satan's ultimate trophy? I'm left with little hope for religion. I look forward to reading the book "Repenting Of Religion" as I'm looking for some hope. Doctor, doctor, give me the news I've got a bad case of lovin’ ... | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 1/27/2004 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/27/2004 9:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by S.B.G.
Oh, no! In my haste I forgot my sheep!
For all his jumping, he's so plump! I love him!
sbg
He is cute, isn't he? Did you happen to catch Greg's sermon on Sunday? He spoke about sheep!
Hello Tigress, I caught the sermon. I have to confess that the picture of Jesus holding the lamb and the parable of the lost sheep brought tears of joy. The sermon was about how strong of an impact physical images can be and how to use the eyes of your imagination to create them. Well it worked, later that day I happened to see the same picture of Jesus cuddling the lamb at Northwestern Book store and it quickly triggered warm emotions in my heart. It was quite the sermon coupled with the most moving preview I’ve ever seen; the Passion.
-Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 1/27/2004 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by S.B.G.
Oh, no! In my haste I forgot my sheep!
For all his jumping, he's so plump! I love him!
sbg
He is cute, isn't he? Did you happen to catch Greg's sermon on Sunday? He spoke about sheep!
Hello Tigress, I caught the sermon. I have to confess that the picture of Jesus holding the lamb and the parable of the lost sheep brought tears of joy. The sermon was about how strong of an impact physical images can be and how to use the eyes of your imagination to create them. Well it worked, later that day I happened to see the same picture of Jesus cuddling the lamb at Northwestern Book store and it quickly triggered warm emotions in my heart. It was quite the sermon coupled with the most moving preview I’ve ever seen; the Passion.
-Mark
Yeah, I heard his sermon on Sunday, too. I have an awesome picture of Jesus holding a lamb also, although it's different from Greg's. Mine was given to me by my Godparents at my baptism as a baby. It's a picture of Him standing and holding the lamb up on His shoulders (like a fur stole!) and the lamb looks so happy with its head leaning against Jesus' face! There are other sheep standing all around Him, and mountains in the background. I've never seen a picture of Jesus that I've liked more than that one. But Greg's was cute, too. I have the picture hanging up next to my bed above where my head is so when I'm laying in bed in the morning I can just turn to my right, look up, and there it is!
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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