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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/15/2004 6:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | Follow the link below for a book review of "Not Religion, but Love: practicing a radical spirituality of compassion"
www.palms.org.au/reviews/notreligion.htm
Another book of interest by Dave Andrews: Christi-Anarchy
[url]http://www.lion-publishing.co.uk/features/0745942342.htm#Contents[url]
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/16/2004 1:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc: ...Dave Andrews' Not Religion But Love.
Tom: Haven't read it, and by the sound of it I'm sure I'd agree with most of it. BUT...why the either/or? Why Religion OR love? Why not "lovingly religious" or "love AND religion." How are you all defining religion? I don't get it. Ya know what bothers me about SOME of those I've met who want to say things like this is that Christianity is usually the only religion given the boot. Let's repent of Christianity. But if you're a Buddhist, hey, OK, you can be THAT and have love too; we won't ask you to repent of Buddhism. Don't wanna offend Buddhists. Islam? You can be a Muslim and have love too. Don't wanna tell Muslims they have to give up Islam to know real love in Christ. Judaism? That too. I've heard lots of folks say we should respect other religions, not attack their traditions, but rather affirm those traditions as a wonderful thing. But Christianity? Gotta give that up. It's BAD. Christianity is usually thought to be the only religion anemic to love! I don't get it.
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johnmd
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Total Posts : 154
| Posted 1/16/2004 5:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I agree that Christianity seems to take a bad rap relative to other world religions. However, after reading only part of the book itself, other world religions appear to be beyond the scope of this author at least for this book.
Rather, I believe he is addressing the widening gap or disconnect he perceives between a major thrust of the gospel ("the charge to be among the poor and dispossessed") and the relative little efforts and associations of the modern Christian "religion. on behalf of the downtrodden"
I think all would agree that "Biblical Christianity" and the modern "Christian religion SHOULD BE one in the same. However, I also perceive the same disconnect submitted by the author.
Relative to other world religions, my general impression is that there is no other "religion," save Christianity, that is fundamentally based on unconditional love for one's neighbor (cf. the greatest commandment). Hence, any deviation from a fundamental tenet will necessarily become more obvious as an inconsistency in short order and to a greater degree than would otherwise be the case. Sort of like that Southern Baptist thing with alcohol consumption and dancing. Once you place the issues on the "Church Covenant" and hang it on the wall for all to see divergence from the defined "norm" automatically becomes a bigger issue.
I too recommend the book in so far as it echoes a wake up call to the church to return to its gospel roots not so much in terms of her message but rather her methodology.
I anticipate Dr. Boyd will focus the discussion in his upcoming book (I can't wait) on one of the roots of the disconnect between orthodoxy and orthopraxy and address the judgmentalism that often drives people toward religious ritual and away from the practice of unconditional love.
I run a local (ecumenical) benevolence ministry in the buckle of the Bible Belt and despite a church on every corner filled Sunday after Sunday with many many good people, believers in our area do relatively little benevolence ministry either with our ministry or through their own congregations. So, the disconnect with the gospel narratives is quite apparent to me. Benevolence issues are usually quite complex and certainly addressing judgmentalism will not solve the whole problem. However, I do believe judmentalism is a prominent issue to address in restoring equity in ministry to the modern Christian "religion" and look forward to gleening Dr. Boyd's perspective as it relates to this issue.
Good discussion
John
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/16/2004 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | In the past on this board, many including Dr. Boyd have made it quite clear what they mean by "love, not judgement": That is, we must never tell sodomites that what they're doing is sinful, or for that matter, what anybody is doing is sinful, for that would be "judgmental."
This assertion they base on Bonhoeffer's idea that "there is no Christian ethic." (I hardly can believe the same author penned The Cost of Discipleship)
Even in making this short statement of fact (which the archives bear out plainly), I am by their gauge guilty of "judging."
1 Cor 6:9 ¶ Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (NASB)
If libertarian free will doesn't mean a Christian can live a truly transformed and holy life in Christ, it really amounts to nothing more than a navel-gazing narcissism.
I am in doubt as to whether this post will be allowed to stand, but, I am simply relating the facts as to what those in the "love not judgment" camp have made plain as to their position here in the past.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 1/16/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Some people seem to actually appreciate hearing the truth told to them in a blunt manner like Dr. Laura Schlessinger has been known for doing. People, knowing how tough her responses are, would still call in to her show seeking advice and they'd often receive her harsh answers gladly. I know she's not a Christian so she doesn't have to be held up to the same ideal Christ requires of His Church, but if her method was found to be so refreshing by so many, is it really so bad if Christians speak the truth to people in the same way?
There are non-Christians in my office who think that churches that tippy-toe around sins by not speaking out against them, are hypocritical. They'd have much more respect for the Church if it held up a standard boldly, and they would be more apt to respect Jesus because of it.
Now, I'm not saying Christians should go around condemning to hell people who commit certain sins, or to say that God hates certain people because of their sins. I'm simply saying that if someone straight out asks us what we think about a particular behavior, we should straight out tell them that it's a sin with no dancing around it or trying to soften the blow. That's what Jesus did. He agreed with the Samaritan woman that she sinned by having multiple husbands. He acknowleged the adulteress' sin by telling her to sin no more. He busted up the tables of the money-changers in the temple, for crying out loud! You can't tell me Jesus tippy-toed around the truth of what sin really is.
The Church itself has gotten a little too politically correct. Look how Paul and the early Christians dealt with sin in the church. They told the sinners to repent or else they'd be kicked out of the fellowship, unable to take communion with the other believers until they repented. There are so many nominal Christians in churches today who are fornicating and cohabitating with the opposite sex outside of marriage. There are Christians who partake in occultic practices without even realizing it. There are Christians who constantly gossip and hurt their fellow believers. There's so much sin prevalent in our churches today no wonder there's no power in the spread of the Gospel.
I guess I'm pushing more to hold believers accountable. I don't worry too much about non-believers' sins as much, because they need to get saved before we can teach them to abhor sin. But once people are saved, that's when the Church needs to crack down on misbehavior and not just tippy-toe around it for fear of causing people to leave the church or the faith itself. Paul and the early Christians sure weren't concerned about that. So why should we be?
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/17/2004 3:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Until we walk a mile in another's shoes, we cannot judge them.
The trouble with "religion" is that it tries to generalize and classify people. Some are "in" while others are "out". You are good or bad depending on what you do instead of who you are. Religion says there is a right and a wrong way to live but doesn't consider that people are unique and that God works on hearts and lives differently. We begin to use the criteria of "good" and "bad" to decide which groups or sins to focus our attention on and then preach to "those people" who fall within the "bad" criterial sins. Religion attempts to ensure us that we can get life from playing God through living off the judgment mindset. This mindset, however, was the original source of sin -- Adam and Eve were trying to be all knowing like God. We were never created to be the judges of good and evil. No! We were created to love and to be loved. We were created to be loved by God and then allow this love to infiltrate to the world. "They will know we are Christians by our love NOT by our judgment."
Jesus' command is to love your neighbor, love yourself, and above all else love God with your whole heart, mind, and soul. Since we can only see a speck into someone else's life we are to focus on becoming transformed in our own life. We are to pray for one another and if we see sin in someone else's life we are to pray that the Holy Spirit will move in their hearts and lives. The only one who is able to see all and know all is God, hence God is the only one to judge the heart. Our job is to surrender our concern to God and trust that the Holy Spirit can handle the job. The ONLY time we are to confront someone else is if they are hurting themselves or harming another and this can only be assessed out of a heart of genuine love and concern. | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 1/17/2004 6:54 PM (GMT -6) | | John Earp
As to "repenting of religion" of course we should express the love of God in Christ to a hurting, sinful, and dying world, and should never be as the Pharisee who said "I thank my God that I am not as other men." Jesus said we should be as the publican who smote his breast, saying "God be merciful to me, a sinner."
Iconoclast
Good point John. I think this is the key. As long as we always remember that we are sinners, like everyone else, in need of God's and each other's mercy then it is a lot easier to love and a lot more difficult to condemn.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/19/2004 2:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
That is, we must never tell sodomites that what they're doing is sinful, or for that matter, what anybody is doing is sinful, for that would be "judgmental."
John, just for the record, that's not what I've read into what has been written in the past on this board. What I have come to understand from reading threads on this site is WHAT sin are you going to decide to point out? Are you going to be the moral police for EVERY sin? Are you yourself free from sinning?
Who makes you righteous?
I believe the answer is that we ALL fall short and NEED God's grace and mercy. Jesus came to fulfill the law for us. We can be transformed through GOD'S grace NOT through condemnation. We are made righteous through the love shown on the cross.
We are called to love our neighbor for who they are NOT judge them for what they are or aren't doing. Until you walk a mile in another person's shoes you have no idea what God has already done in their life. And the only time you are at liberty to confront is when it is done out of a loving concern for the other person because they are harming themselves or another but to beat them up or preach to them will do little good but might do a lot of damage.
Just for the record this is what I have learned from the those who preach love not judgment.
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 1/19/2004 9:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
Just because we are not made by our own righteousness does not mean we should not point out what is wrong "In God's sight," to others, which is also bad for them. The problem with those on this sight who want "love, never judgment," atttitude is they cannot understand that there are those of us who point out the sins in others (and want the sins we are doing pointed out, as painful as it may be...and as hard as it may be to take), because we love others, not because we are judging others. They simply cannot get past the "judgment" aspect in their own heads, so they judge others about judging. A person engaged in a sin is distancing himself from God and to not point this out to a person is height of being "unloving," not the opposite. It is the ultimate in love to tendering confront a person about a sin in their lives. Those who will not under some false idea of not being "loving" simply do not understand what it means to truly love another.
'Course, I've never walked a mile in a women's shoes so I suppose that means I could never confront a woman about anything, huh? Sounds to me like culture is more of a barometer for what love is than the scriptures.
BTW, we are not called to love our neighbor for who they are. We are called to love our neighbor as ourselves, which means we want the absolute best for them, which means we want them to be as close to God as possible which means we want to hold them accountable, just as we should be held accountable by loving brothers and sisters.
Excellent point Honorman! That's exactly what I've been trying to convey myself, but you were so much more eloquent in describing it.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/19/2004 4:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Food for thought:
Judging Others
Luke 6:37-42
"Do not judge others, and God will not judge you; do not condemn others, and God will not condemn you; forgive others, and God will forgive you. Give to others, and God will give to you. Indeed, you will receive a full measure, a generous helping, poured into your hands -- all that you can hold. The measure you use for others is the one that God will use for you.
And Jesus told them this parable: One blind man cannot lead another one; if he does, both will fall into the ditch. No pupil is greater than his teacher; but every pupil, when he has completed the training, will be like his teacher.
Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but pay no attention to the log in your own eye? You hypocrite! FIRST take the log out of your eye, and then you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
Matthew 18:23-34
"Once there was a king who decided to check on his servants' accounts. He had just begun to do so when one of them was brought in who owed him millions of dollars The servant did not have enough to pay his debt, so the king ordered him to be sold as a slave, with his wife and his children and all that he had, in order to pay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before, the king, 'Be patient with me' he begged, 'I will pay you everything!' The king felt sorry for him, so he forgave him the debt and let him go.
Then the man went out and met one of his fellow servants who owed him a few dollars. He grabbed him and started choking him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he said. His fellow servant fell down and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back!' But he refused; instead, he had him thrown into jail until he should pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were very upset and went to the king and told him everything. So he called the servant in. 'You worthless slave!' he said, 'I forgave you the whole amount you owed me, just because you asked me to. You should have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had mercy on you.' The king was very angry, and he sent the servant to jail."
Don't you guys think Jesus is telling each of us to first clean up the skeletons in our own closets before searching for skeletons in others. What sin is the greatest? | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 1/19/2004 5:08 PM (GMT -6) | | honorman
Just because we are not made by our own righteousness does not mean we should not point out what is wrong "In God's sight," to others, which is also bad for them.
Iconoclast
If someone is judging others should we point that out to them?
honorman
They simply cannot get past the "judgment" aspect in their own heads, so they judge others about judging.
Iconoclast
Isn’t your point that it is good to judge others when they sin? Or, are you saying that we shouldn’t judge others we should simply point out their sins? And if this is what you are saying then how would one go about pointing out to someone that they are sinning by judging versus judging them for judging?
honorman
BTW, we are not called to love our neighbor for who they are. We are called to love our neighbor as ourselves, which means we want the absolute best for them, which means we want them to be as close to God as possible…
Iconoclast
But, doesn’t Jesus love us “just as we are”? Didn’t Jesus love us while we were yet sinners? Didn’t Jesus love the very ones who were murdering Him? Shouldn’t we love others as Jesus loves us?
It seems obvious to me that the absolute best thing for any one of us is to be unconditionally loved by another.
If we want the absolute best for someone and want them to be as close to God as possible then doesn’t that mean we should love them for who they are? Aren’t we, as Christians, supposed to be known for our love? Isn’t that how people come to know Christ, because they see that Christians actually love other people for who they are rather than for their good behavior?
Now, if you are simply saying that it is not really loving at all to be co-dependent with another person then I would wholeheartedly agree. But surely you would agree that there are two kinds of co-dependence – the kind where a person enables the alcoholic by mitigating their consequences (playing the child role) and the kind where a person enables the alcoholic by endlessly criticising and judging them (playing the parent role). It seems to me that either one is a way of sucking life out of another in order to feed our own insatiable need and neither is unconditional love.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/19/2004 5:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Icon,
As Christians, we are clearly and plainly called to live a holy life by the power of God's grace in in Christ. If I've been hearing you correctly for the past year or so, you deny that a Christian can truly obey God like this, for that would be, in your words, "moral perfectionism," and thus simply couldn't be true.
Now if I grant your presupposition about man's moral inability in this regard (humans can never love God and fellow man as they should), then it necessarily follows that God must be the most impossible tyrant imaginable, requiring as He does, on pain of eternal death, that which man cannot possibly do (live holy by God's grace).
As to "judging," Jesus also told people to "Judge righteous judgment," so it would appear that your categorical condemnation of judging would include the Savior himself.
On that point, it is generally observed by language scholars that there are two primary uses for the word translated in most English bibles as "to judge." One is "to condemn," and the other is "to discern." The former we are definitely told never to do, while the latter we are expressly commanded to do by Christ himself.
When I say "judgment" is something we as Christians are specifically told TO do by Christ and his Apostles, I am using the term in its critical but noncondemnatory way, i.e., "discernment." I find it amazing if anyone thinks discernment is something we as Christians should not exercise.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/19/2004 11:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Websters definitions:
discerning -- showing insight and understanding
judging -- to form an opinion; to decide as a judge
condemning -- to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation
John, I realize you are addressing Icon in your last post but I thought I'd inject part of the scripture I had quoted above:
"Do not judge others, and God will not judge you; do not condemn others, and God will not condemn you"
Discernment is demonstrating insight/understanding (a loving act of walking in another's shoes so to speak) while judgment is formulating opinion/decision (condemning).
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/20/2004 8:00 AM (GMT -6) | | When Jesus said people must repent or perish, was that judgmental?
When Jesus told people to "judge righteous judgment" was that judgmental of him?
When Jesus said to people that if they did not believe in him, they would die in their sins, wasn't that judgmental by today's standards?
When Jesus said those who practice lawlessness would not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 7:21-23) doesn't that sound a bit judgmental of him?
QFT,
All I'm saying is that Jesus and all those who were inspired to write the Bible apparently had no problem naming sin as sin, and preaching that people must repent or perish. However, in my experience on this board, those in the "love, not judgment" crowd by definition must themselves condemn Jesus and all his apostles, for they all preached about sin, righteousness, and judgment (or, true repentance and faith in Christ).
Paul said to those on Mars Hill that God now commands all men everywhere to repent; nowadays in America, the scriptural truth that "without holiness no one shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14) has basically become anathema.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/20/2004 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
honorman wrote:
My point, Icon, is that sin in a person's life needs to be pointed out many times because it is the loving thing to do. I, however, am not inclined to get into a discussion on this issue because its been done before here.
Well, I can (sadly) attest to that.
Honorman "points out my sin" nearly every time he responds to my posts.
Why hasn't it felt loving?
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/20/2004 5:29 PM (GMT -6) | | John Earpquote:
All I'm saying is that Jesus and all those who were inspired to write the Bible apparently had no problem naming sin as sin, and preaching that people must repent or perish. However, in my experience on this board, those in the "love, not judgment" crowd by definition must themselves condemn Jesus and all his apostles, for they all preached about sin, righteousness, and judgment (or, true repentance and faith in Christ).
Paul said to those on Mars Hill that God now commands all men everywhere to repent; nowadays in America, the scriptural truth that "without holiness no one shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14) has basically become anathema.
I realize that each person has a role to play in the body of Christ. I believe some people are called to prophecy while others are called to teach and still others to shepherd yet ALL are to be led by the Spirit with love as the motivating force. Paul's primary role was to teach the early churches and disciple them. Jesus' ministry was about setting the captive free and preaching the "good" news of salvation through grace not works. They both were led by the Spirit and were motivated by love.
Honormanquote:
God forbid that I should ever love my kids unconditionally. "Go ahead, do anything, I'll still love you."
Perhaps you are confusing loving who they are (your child) with what they do (their action) I can honestly say that I will ALWAYS love my children yet I will not always agree nor approve of decisions they make. I believe sometimes it will be better for me to keep silent and pray "in my prayer closet" than to "nag" them. My love for my children will NOT end even if/when they make poor choices or refuse to hear my words of wisdom. Perhaps, Honorman, reread the prodigal son. That father NEVER stopped loving his lost son NEVER.
Tigressquote:
I think people here are misunderstanding what Honorman, John and I are saying. We're not advocating judging people in self-righteousness. We're simply advocating the Biblical mandate to edify our brothers and sisters in Christ.
IF your intention in pointing out a sin in someone's life is to save them (as with the drug commercial) because they are hurting themselves.... I say have at it out of a spirit of love but even then know they may not be receptive to hearing your advice. This is where I believe we cannot judge and must walk by the Spirit with a heart of love. Each person has a unique life map and baggage from their past. I believe people, for the most part, make the best choice they can, in the situation they are in, with the resources they have even when their life choices look very different from how we would be living. Sometimes there is much more to a person's using drugs than mere will or free choice. They may want to quit but not have the resources internally or externally to do so hence it will do little good to nag them about how they should be living. SOME are called to teach while others are called to shepherd or prophecy ... but ALL are called to love.
Honorman and Mayflower go.... TURN THE OTHER CHEEK . | | Back to Top | | |
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