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| In your opinion, which view is MOST viable, given all Scriptural and historical considerations? | | Eternal Conscious Punishment/Torment - 56.5% | | Annihilationism - 13.0% | | Universal Reconciliation - 8.7% | | I don't know right now - 21.7% |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 2/2/2006 6:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hmm!
Ok, I take the challenge. I have been told by Roger T. Forster (Ichthus), and those teaching stuff he's taught, that none of the early church fathers taught ECP. But I haven't got his little booklet about it on me. But I shall dig it up/get hold of a copy and then see what he says.
Your quotes do seem to indicate that these guys believed in eternal punishing of the lost.
BTW, what does 'ante-nicene' mean? Is that before the Council of Nicene?
But can I challenge some of your readings?
"Barnabas: The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment."
Death = ceasing of life, not a continuation of life forever so that punishing can go on. I do not deny that there will be a just punishment for the wicked after death, but will this go on forever? Eternal punishment (eternal in consequence) but not eternal punishing. Is Barnabas saying that there will be an eternal conscious torment?
Justin Martyr:
Ok, yes. He seems quite set on ECT.
"Tatian: We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterward receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain."
I would need to see the context of this. With a doctrine of rewards, where believers can suffer loss in the next life although not be eternally lost; some will receive immortality with pain as they are shamed at the Lord's appearing and are shut out of the wedding supper of the Lamb and his millennial reign. But that's probably another tangent.
"Athenagoras:
...we are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one, and heavenly, not earthly (since we shall abide near God, and with God, free from all change or suffering in the soul, not as flesh, even though we shall have flesh, but as heavenly spirit), or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated. On these grounds it is not likely that we should wish to do evil, or deliver ourselves over to the great Judge to be punished."
Doesn't strictly say eternal punishing will happen. Everyone will be raised at the final resurrection of the dead, and then judged in that body. An eye for an eye doesn't work if one doesn't have a body at all! We shall all live another life, but for some it will be a worse one and in fire.
"Irenaeus: And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending."
The loss of good things will be eternal and never-ending. The lost won't get punished and then let into heaven, rather the consequence of their punishment will last forever. The continuation of our existence is one of the good things from God which is lost?
"Clement of Alexandria: All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery."
Yep, pretty ECT. Though would question his assertion that all souls are immortal (Romans 2:7), but it's besides the point as it does show that ECT was believed by early church fathers.
"Tertullian: We, however, so understand the soul's immortality as to believe it to be "lost" - not in the sense of destruction - but of punishment, that is, in Gehenna."
Ok, idea of immortal soul appearing here.
"Mark Minucius Felix: There is neither limit nor termination of these torments. There, the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them. It feeds on them and nourishes them."
Very ECT. And also seems quite sick - God's fire in hell gives life to people so that he can keep punishing them.
The rest of the ones you mentioned did seem clearly ECT.
Ok, it seems I can't claim that all the early church fathers didn't believe in ECT. Can I still claim that some of them did believe in some form of conditional immortality/anihilationism? I think I need to do my research on that one though.
I still believe that scripture doesn't point to ECT though...but that's for a later post.
Thank you John, that's got me thinking!
In Christ
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/2/2006 9:06 PM (GMT -6) | |
John N. Darby said...
Irenaeus: And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending.
This sounds very familiar, and might be one basis of a sermon I heard not long ago.
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J.N.Darby
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 124
| Posted 2/2/2006 9:38 PM (GMT -6) | | timlings said...
I have been told by Roger T. Forster (Ichthus), and those teaching stuff he's taught, that none of the early church fathers taught ECP. But I haven't got his little booklet about it on me. But I shall dig it up/get hold of a copy and then see what he says.
Yeah, if you could find that, that would be great, because I totally loved his book "God's Strategy in Human History" (It's also the only book Greg Boyd ever gave a recommendation for on amazon.com - http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A37RBHTCOMS7RU/ref=cm_cr_auth/002-3220793-8845658?%5Fencoding=UTF8 ).
By the way, I mentioned in a previous post Boyd's excellent synthesis of ECT with Annihilationism in chapters 11 and 12 of "Satan and the Problem of Evil", and I asked if anyone else had read it, but no one has answered yes or no yet. Have you? If not, check it out.
timlings said...
BTW, what does 'ante-nicene' mean? Is that before the Council of Nicene?
Yep, before the Nicene Council.
timlings said...
But can I challenge some of your readings?
"Barnabas: The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment."
Death = ceasing of life, not a continuation of life forever so that punishing can go on. I do not deny that there will be a just punishment for the wicked after death, but will this go on forever? Eternal punishment (eternal in consequence) but not eternal punishing. Is Barnabas saying that there will be an eternal conscious torment?
The full Barnabas quote can be read at http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0124.htm , under chapter XX. Actually, I reckon this passage can be read as either ECT or Annihilation - though I'm inclined to think it refers to ECT because of the belief-categories represented by other early Christian writers from near this time (Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria, at the least).
timlings said...
"Tatian: We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterward receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain."
I would need to see the context of this. With a doctrine of rewards, where believers can suffer loss in the next life although not be eternally lost; some will receive immortality with pain as they are shamed at the Lord's appearing and are shut out of the wedding supper of the Lamb and his millennial reign. But that's probably another tangent.
I got the Tatian quote from Bercot's "Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs" (which has the reference where one can look it up in the 10-volume "Ante-Nicene Fathers", Roberts and Donaldson - which I don't have access to at this time, so I can't find the context), but this particular phrasing doesn't seem to be represented online yet. However, in his address to the Greeks ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0202.htm ), Tatian makes this bizarre statement: "The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. "
It would seem that he is defining "death" here as "punishment in immortality". It sounds to me as though he held to Annihilationism during initial-physical-death, and ECT following the Final Judgment.
timlings said...
"Athenagoras: ...we are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one, and heavenly, not earthly (since we shall abide near God, and with God, free from all change or suffering in the soul, not as flesh, even though we shall have flesh, but as heavenly spirit), or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated. On these grounds it is not likely that we should wish to do evil, or deliver ourselves over to the great Judge to be punished."
Doesn't strictly say eternal punishing will happen. Everyone will be raised at the final resurrection of the dead, and then judged in that body. An eye for an eye doesn't work if one doesn't have a body at all! We shall all live another life, but for some it will be a worse one and in fire.
Well, the combination of "we shall live another life" with "or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire" plus "God has not made us as ... beasts ... that we should perish and be annihilated..." - altogether seem to spell out ECT. For the fuller context, see http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm (this passage is in chapter XXXI.
timlings said...
"Irenaeus: And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending."
The loss of good things will be eternal and never-ending. The lost won't get punished and then let into heaven, rather the consequence of their punishment will last forever. The continuation of our existence is one of the good things from God which is lost?
I would have to think of this interpretation as eisegesis of Annihilationism into Irenaeus' text. Granted, his texts on the topic don't specify ECT as clearly or as strongly as Justin or Clement, but the wording here nonetheless seems to imply it. "Those... do experience every kind of punishment... and the loss of [good things] is also eternal and never-ending." See the fuller context here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103527.htm
Consider alongside this these other quotes from Irenaeus:
"Truly has Justin [Irenaeus quoting from Justin Martyr] remarked: That before the Lord's appearance Satan never dared to blaspheme God, inasmuch as he did not yet know his own sentence, because it was contained in parables and allegories; but that after the Lord's appearance, when he had clearly ascertained from the words of Christ and His apostles that eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned..."
"And this same thing does the Lord also say in the Gospel, to those who are found upon the left hand: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into ever: lasting fire, which my Father hath prepared for the devil and his angels;" indicating that eternal fire was not originally prepared for man, but for him who beguiled man, and caused him to offend -- for him, I say, who is chief of the apostasy, and for those angels who became apostates along with him; which [fire], indeed, they too shall justly feel, who, like him, persevere in works of wickedness, without repentance, and without retracing their steps."
timlings said...
"Clement of Alexandria: All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery."
Yep, pretty ECT. Though would question his assertion that all souls are immortal (Romans 2:7), but it's besides the point as it does show that ECT was believed by early church fathers.
I usually get the sense that the early Christians (1st, 2nd, 3rd centuries) usually thought of "eternal life" as the opposite of eternal shame/contempt (Daniel 12:2) - or, to put it another way, in speaking of "eternal life" and "immortality", they weren't necessarily saying that those without "eternal life" did not experience perpetual consciousness, but that inasmuch as they were separated from God and His kingdom, they were eternally separated from the blessed life experienced by those who in reconciliation with God. To put it another way, those eternally separated from God would eternally be conscious of their separation from God - and this is "death", by comparison to the "eternal life" and "immortality" enjoyed by the redeemed.. Consider the larger context of Romans 2:7 -
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness; indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
So then, what is the duration of the "indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish"? Well, referring elsewhere in scripture, if Daniel 12:2 is any indication, along with Matthew 25:46, it would seem that the duration is eternal (unless one can provide a text which simultaneously indicates this punishment is temporary and followed by either a cessation of punishment or a cessation of awareness).
timlings said...
"Mark Minucius Felix: There is neither limit nor termination of these torments. There, the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them. It feeds on them and nourishes them."
Very ECT. And also seems quite sick - God's fire in hell gives life to people so that he can keep punishing them.
Well, actually Felix here is drawing this example from Roman/pagan beliefs about "that fiery river" in order to illustrate his understanding of eternal torment. Here's the fuller context - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0410.htm (chapter XXXV).
timlings said...
The rest of the ones you mentioned did seem clearly ECT.
Ok, it seems I can't claim that all the early church fathers didn't believe in ECT. Can I still claim that some of them did believe in some form of conditional immortality/anihilationism? I think I need to do my research on that one though. .
Let me know what you find out - it has been difficult for me to ascertain what percentage of the ante-nicene fathers, if any, may have advocated some form of conditional immortality and/or annihilationism; the "Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" does not have an entry for either concept, and the references I've seen for "eternal death" or "annihilation" seem to be synonymous with some form of ECT.
timlings said...
I still believe that scripture doesn't point to ECT though...but that's for a later post.
Thank you John, that's got me thinking!
In Christ
Tim
Ultimately the scripture should be our guide, I agree. By the way, John Darby is just a screen-name - this is Ricco from scripturedebate@googlegroups  | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 2/3/2006 6:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Ricco, thanks for your reply.
It's always good to find a fellow fan of God's Strategy In Human History. It stops me feeling like too much of a heretic!
I have read Boyd's synthesis of ECT and Annihilationism in SATPOE. I thought that it had some good ideas in it, but my biggest problem was that it was completely novel and unheard of throughout church history! It's also rather hard to understand. My personal take is that Annihilationism is so completely unacceptable in the US (amongst evangelicals) that he would be completely excommunicated from everywhere in the whole land if he did come down on the side of annihilationism, especially with all that he's gone through with the open view. I love Dr Boyd and he's a great guy, so this isn't to disrespect him, rather just a little observation. In the UK, annihilationism isn't completely beyond the pale, although is frowned upon by most. So that's why Dr Boyd comes up with a synthesis.
I had a quick scan of the Barnabus passage, and I still think it's CI (conditional immortality) by the phrase "eternal death with punishment". Death = cessation of life; eternal = in it's consequences; with punishment = but not straight away!
In the works of the early church fathers that you quoted, it seems that as time goes on, they become more ECT. I therefore think it's very feasible to read Barnabus in a CI way.
John N. Darby said...
Well, the combination of "we shall live another life" with "or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire" plus "God has not made us as ... beasts ... that we should perish and be annihilated..." - altogether seem to spell out ECT. For the fuller context, see http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm (this passage is in chapter XXXI.
Which is why I don't call myself an annihilationist! That term implies that when you die, that's it. I believe that there will be a judgment in the body after death, but that the wicked will eventually be destroyed in hell.
With Irenaeus, I probably have read Annihilationism into it a bit. However, I would still argue that it isn't clearly ECT and so a CI reading is still fair.
Your two other quotes from Irenaeus are not explictly ECT either, although do talk much about the punishment after death (which I don't deny!).
John N. Darby said...
I usually get the sense that the early Christians (1st, 2nd, 3rd centuries) usually thought of "eternal life" as the opposite of eternal shame/contempt (Daniel 12:2) - or, to put it another way, in speaking of "eternal life" and "immortality", they weren't necessarily saying that those without "eternal life" did not experience perpetual consciousness, but that inasmuch as they were separated from God and His kingdom, they were eternally separated from the blessed life experienced by those who in reconciliation with God. To put it another way, those eternally separated from God would eternally be conscious of their separation from God - and this is "death", by comparison to the "eternal life" and "immortality" enjoyed by the redeemed..
Indeed, Daniel 12:2 talks about "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." But what does that disgrace and contempt involve? The wicked don't have to be conscious of their contempt for all eternity, rather it's how we will remember them and think of them.
Some thoughts:
Isaiah 66:24
"Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
It's the corpses (dead bodies) of men, not some eternal torture chamber of men.
Psalm 34:16
"The face of the LORD is against evildoers,To cut off the memory of them from the earth."
The wicked are even going to be forgotten [eventually I guess]!
Psalm 109:14-15
"Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD,
And do not let the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15Let them be before the LORD continually,
That He may cut off their memory from the earth;"
David's asking that the Lord won't forget what the wicked have done (i.e. that they'll be judged and righteously punished - there needs to be a hell for perpetrators of things like the holocaust, otherwise God is neither good nor just), but is asking that the wicked will be forgotten. The age to come will be somewhat marred if we're always remembering what a bad guy Hitler was because he's still burning away in hell forever.
[qote-"John N. Darby]So then, what is the duration of the "indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish"? Well, referring elsewhere in scripture, if Daniel 12:2 is any indication, along with Matthew 25:46, it would seem that the duration is eternal (unless one can provide a text which simultaneously indicates this punishment is temporary and followed by either a cessation of punishment or a cessation of awareness).
Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The question is, is the punishment eternal in duration or in conseqence? Let's have a little word study...
Ok, well we have "eternal life" (John 3:16) - eternal in duration, as it's talking about God's life that he gives to us.
And "eternal fire" (Matthew 18:8) - also eternal in duration, as I reckon that it's the fire of God's presence. If God's going to fill up all of the universe, then there's not going to be a part of it that doesn't have God in it. If you love God, that's heaven, but if you hate him, that's hell. ("...he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Revelation 14:10)
Also, "eternal sin" ("but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" Mark 3:29) - is that a sin that lasts for all eternity, or rather a sin of eternal consequence and badness?
And "eternal dwellings" (Luke 16:9) - I guess eternal in duration, in that we get to live completely in God, who has been around for all eternity.
"Eternal power" ("For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20) - eternal in duration, cos it's talking about God' power.
"Eternal God" (Romans 16:26) - he's been around forever!
"Eternal weight of glory" ("For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison," 2 Corinthians 4:17) - a glory that weighs as much as God??
An "eternal building" ("For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Corinthians 5:1) - hmm... perhaps we need to add a further category here, that when the word eternal is used, it kinda means that God's in it and it brings something of him with it. Are our resurrection bodies already eternally made in heaven? Dunno.
"Eternal purpose" ("This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord," Ephesians 3:11) - God's plan from all eternity past? Something that's always been in God's heart? I guess so.
And now, "eternal destruction" ("These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thessalonians 1:9) - ooh, says that the destruction is away from the presence of the Lord. Well I guess so, but the only place away from the Lord's presence is ultimately to no longer exist. And is the destruction eternal in duration (keeping on being destroyed forever, although that would make for a pretty rubbish incinerator!) or in consequence?
"Eternal comfort" ("Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace" 2 Thessalonians 2:16) - eternal in duration I hope! I want to be comforted forever!
"Eternal dominion" (1 Timothy 6:16) - in duration, I guess
"Eternal glory" ("For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory." 2 Timothy 2:10) - we get God's glory forever!
Importantly, "eternal salvation" ("And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation" Hebrews 5:9) - is Jesus going to be eternally saving us? In a sense, but I think it's better to see it that his death on the cross won us an eternal salvation in terms of it's consequences will go on eternally.
"Eternal judgement" ("of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:2) - judgement day is not going to last forever, rather the consequences of it will.
"Eternal redemption" ("and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Hebrews 9:12) - Jesus doesn't keep on redeeming us for all eternity by keeping on dying on the cross; rather, his one death on the cross gives us a redemption with consequences that last for all eternity.
"Eternal Spirit" (Hebrews 9:14) - duration, as the Holy Spirit is eternal.
"Eternal inheritance" ("For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." Hebrews 9:15) - we only get this inheritance once, but we get to enjoy its benefits forever.
"Eternal covenant" ("Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord" Hebrews 13:20) - the covenant/contract was made once for all on the cross, but we get to enjoy the benefits of it forever.
"Eternal kingdom" ("for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." 2 Peter 1:11) - the kingdom will last forever.
"Eternal bonds" ("And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day" Jude 1:6) - hmm! Now if these bonds lasted forever, how could God only keep the angels in them until the judgment? Is the word eternal not really talking about their duration, but rather where they're from, i.e. the Eternal God?
"Eternal gospel" ("And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;" Revelation 14:6) - is the gospel message so long that you can never get to the end of it (like some meetings  )? Or is it saying something about it's source and 'Godiness'?
Well, I quite enjoyed that! I never realised how many eternals there are in the NT...22 it seems. And I think it's fair to say that eternal can mean 3 things:
(a) Eternal in duration - life, fire, dwellings, God, glory, purpose, kingdom, Spirit. dominion, comfort
(b) Eternal in consequence - covenant, inheritance, redemption, judgement, salvation, destruction, sin
(c) Eternal, perhaps a metonym for the Lord? - gospel, bonds, building, weight of glory
What do you think?
Anyway, this post has got way too long!
Blessings
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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J.N.Darby
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 124
| Posted 2/3/2006 3:13 PM (GMT -6) | | timlings said...
I have read Boyd's synthesis of ECT and Annihilationism in SATPOE. I thought that it had some good ideas in it, but my biggest problem was that it was completely novel and unheard of throughout church history! It's also rather hard to understand. My personal take is that Annihilationism is so completely unacceptable in the US (amongst evangelicals) that he would be completely excommunicated from everywhere in the whole land if he did come down on the side of annihilationism, especially with all that he's gone through with the open view. I love Dr Boyd and he's a great guy, so this isn't to disrespect him, rather just a little observation. In the UK, annihilationism isn't completely beyond the pale, although is frowned upon by most. So that's why Dr Boyd comes up with a synthesis.
I'm going to have to disagree again (sorry Tim). Having attending Mr. Boyd's church, listened to his teaching, and read many of his books, I don't get the sense that he would ever be inclined to fabricate a doctrine as a concession or compromise to anyone, nor as a matter of convenience. The motivation for his synthesis is stated in "Satan and the Problem of Evil":
"In the previous chapter we examined the scriptural teaching regarding the fate of the wicked but found it paradoxical. Both traditionalists and annihilationists can find support for their differing conclusions regarding hell, yet these positions seem contradictory. In theology, as in all areas of human understanding, sometimes advancements are made when we refuse to accept apparent antitheses as absolute... I will attempt to move beyond the impasse of the traditional and annihilationist understandings of eternal punishment and construct a model of hell that allows us to affirm the essense of both perspectives."
On a personal note, what Mr. Boyd contructs just happens to coincide with the concept of "hell" as I had to come to understand it prior to reading "Satan and the Problem of Evil" (similarly, I first came to the open-theist view on my own, from my reading of scripture, prior to knowing that anyone else had already written about it, or even that it was called open-theism). Interestingly enough, a lot of American Evangelicals actually DO (perhaps unwittingly) adhere to Boyd's concept of hell, and this is how it is usually expressed:
The concept of death in scripture is one of separation. When a person physically dies, they are separated from the world of the living. Spiritual death means separation from God, and this is the state we are in as sinners without Christ. But through Christ we are reconciled to God, and no longer separated from Him. This is why Paul says "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God... For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."
(2 Cor 5:18-20, Rom 5:10-11).
If a person dies in rejection of Christ their spirit remains separated from God - and thus separated from all that God is and all He represents (love, goodness, joy, etc.). They exist in a state of perpetual separation from God and His good creation (in particular, the New Earth of Rev 21-22). The horror of this fate is expressed in scripture using the most dire symbolism the inspired writers can muster, such as the lake of fire ("fire" being largely symbolic for Judgment throughout scripture). This is meant to express to the unbeliever how undesirable it would be for them to enter the afterlife without first having been reconciled to God through Christ.
Now, in my own understanding, there is also punishment involved for those who died without Christ and enjoyed wickedness throughout their life - and the punishment differs depending on the individual and their sins; it will be severe for some, not as severe for others, and perhaps altogether lacking for those who rejected Christ but were otherwise "model citizens". I deduce the differing levels of punishment from the following passages:
Matthew 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."
Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
The punishment of the wicked need not be thought of as perpetual. But their conscious separation from God and His good creation is perpetual, having resulted from their own free choice, their own rejection of God. In this sense, they are "annihilated" (forever separate from God and the rest of creation), while also enduring "eternal punishment" (the separation being "punishment" in and of itself).
Hopefully I have explained my view clearly enough. With this in mind, you might better understand Boyd's construct of "hell" in chapters 11 and 12 of "Satan and the Problem of Evil", if you were to re-read it.
In response to the rest of your email, I appreciate the work you put into it, but I'm not inclined to offer further debate/argument/disagreement, because it is simply not a topic I feel I can be dogmatic about, and I'm content to agree to disagree with other believers about it (especially since my own view is somewhat controversial, even if it is shared by a surprising number of other evangelicals). | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
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Total Posts : 130
| Posted 2/8/2006 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Ricco
I've just gotten hold of 'Heaven and Hell: man's eternal destiny' by Roger T. Forster, and it doesn't anywhere say that all the early church fathers believed in conditional immortality. So I retract my earlier statement, as it was proven to be false anyway!
In the booklet, he argues the case for Conditional Immortality, although fairly assesses the other views available. But there are some particularly interesting points on the last page.
"Points of agreement
After 2000 years of debate between Traditionalists, Conditionalists and Universalists continues. All three positions agree generally:
Claim the Early Church Fathers agree with them somewhere.
Agree that 'eternal' includes quality and quantity.
Agree language is metaphorical = literalist language is often rejected by Jesus, (example Temple, new birth and Nicodemus - loaf and wine etc.) Mark 8:14-21.
Agree no consistent view in the Apocrypha and Pseudepigraphia.
Agree immortality is a gift and maintained by God not inherent in the soul.
Agree that Rabbinic teachings re Eternal Consciousness are mainly late (e.g. Kumichi 1200 AD) teachings on Eternal Conscious Torment are later than New Testament days.
Agree God who makes also may unmake." (1997:28, Ichthus Media)
So that's interesting! The early church fathers didn't seem to agree on their views on hell, so we do have leeway to argue whichever from scripture.
John N. Darby said...
I'm going to have to disagree again (sorry Tim). Having attending Mr. Boyd's church, listened to his teaching, and read many of his books, I don't get the sense that he would ever be inclined to fabricate a doctrine as a concession or compromise to anyone, nor as a matter of convenience.
Yes, sorry, I think that came out a bit wrong. His synthesis just sounded a bit like it was trying to please both CI and ECT people... But I know that Greg isn't a people-pleaser, so that probably is just my opinion and not the truth.
With your explanation of your view (do you have a catchy phrase for it?), I would challenge you assertion that spiritual death is separation from God. Rev 14:10 seems to imply that punishment was in the presence of the Lamb, not his absence. Is not death the eventual ceasing to exist?
But anyway.
Blessings
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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J.N.Darby
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| Posted 2/9/2006 3:23 PM (GMT -6) | | timlings said...
Ricco
With your explanation of your view (do you have a catchy phrase for it?), I would challenge you assertion that spiritual death is separation from God. Rev 14:10 seems to imply that punishment was in the presence of the Lamb, not his absence. Is not death the eventual ceasing to exist?
Tim
No catchy phrase yet - perhaps "postmortem pity party (PPP)" ? 
Here are some musings off the top of my head, in response to your questions - nothing "official" or anything I can provide reference for
To clarify the concept of "separation", think of a couple that has gone through a divorce. They are separated, no longer unified, having sought separation rather than reconciliation. They can be in the same room, even talking, but they are nonetheless separated. The term as I'm using it applies to "relationship", or lack thereof, rather than physical proximity.
In a similar manner, because of the Fall, because of Sin, we are "divorced" from God. Adam and Eve, having sinned in Eden, died that very day (as God said, "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die"... ) - yet they continued to exist (thus it would not seem that the biblical concept of death is "ceasing to exist"...). Their physical death was a process which began the day of their sin, but took some years to complete (sort of like when you unplug a fan - the blades keep spinning for a time, before ultimately coming to a stop). But they also died in the day of their sin by virtue of placing themselves out-of-sync with God - by their choice, they turned their back on Him, choosing not to love and honor Him, and thus they were spiritually separated from God.
This separation is inferred in the New Testament, when Paul speaks of reconciliation - something which would not be needed unless there had been separation. "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God... For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:18-20, Rom 5:10-11).
Concerning Revelation 14:10, well, every position has its problem texts, and this might be one for my position, except that the punishment/torment in this passage isn't synonymous with the "eternal separation" I speak of. The torment in this passage would be something in addition to the state of "eternal separation". Also, I wouldn't take this passage to be descriptive of all who die without Christ - it is specifically describing the fate of those who worship the beast and take his mark; these people, in particular, will "be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name." (YLT). In the PPP concept, this could mean that their punishment is brought about by the Father, before ("in the presence of" ) the angels and Christ, but while "the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages", it doesn't specify that it is forever in the presence of Christ and the angels, so one need only assume it is in their presence for a time, and then eternal after that (it may not even be necessary to think of the punishment itself as perpetual, but rather as a temporal punishment followed by eternal separation).
Ah well, that's the best I can do on an empty stomach - I'll see if anything else comes to me later. | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 2/9/2006 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Ricco
Thanks for the reply. It's good dialoguing with you!
I think you're bang on when you talk about the idea of divorce. Being in the presence of the lamb is only torture for people who have separated themselves from the Lord in their hearts. If you put a badly divorced couple in a room together, it's not usually nice! They may be in physical proximity, but their hearts are far apart. This kind of makes sense of the idea of "eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9) but also torment in his presence.
I do agree that the gospel is about restoring us to God, us having been separated in relationship from him due to sin. But if God's plan is to be all in all (1 Cor 15:28), then where can hell be, if hell is separate from God?
John N. Darby said...
Concerning Revelation 14:10, well, every position has its problem texts, and this might be one for my position, except that the punishment/torment in this passage isn't synonymous with the "eternal separation" I speak of. The torment in this passage would be something in addition to the state of "eternal separation". Also, I wouldn't take this passage to be descriptive of all who die without Christ - it is specifically describing the fate of those who worship the beast and take his mark; these people, in particular, will "be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name." (YLT). In the PPP concept, this could mean that their punishment is brought about by the Father, before ("in the presence of" ) the angels and Christ, but while "the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages", it doesn't specify that it is forever in the presence of Christ and the angels, so one need only assume it is in their presence for a time, and then eternal after that (it may not even be necessary to think of the punishment itself as perpetual, but rather as a temporal punishment followed by eternal separation).
Why can't the lost just be destroyed and unmade after they are punished? What's stopping you from thinking that?
Blessings
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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J.N.Darby
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| Posted 2/10/2006 5:07 PM (GMT -6) | | timlings said...
Why can't the lost just be destroyed and unmade after they are punished? What's stopping you from thinking that?
Is it theoretically possible? Sure.
But what keeps me from thinking along these lines is because of my own manner of reading scripture - which is to say, such a conclusion seems strained to me, whereas something more along the lines of ECT seems to me the more natural reading of the relevant passages. Maybe someone else can read the same passages and perhaps it seems obvious to them that annihilation is entailed therein, but my own reading of it does not reveal such to me.
For example, when I read Dan 12:2, I see that the dead will awaken, some to life, and some (in contrast to life) to shame and contempt. In both cases it is everlasting - just as the life is everlasting, so is the shame and contempt. My plainest reading of this is to understand this as saying that some will be eternally conscious of shame and contempt. I can't imagine how, if they ceased to exist, it could be said the shame and contempt is everlasting - after all, if they've ceased to exist, they're not experiencing it, so who would be experiencing or acknowledging the shame and contempt in their absense? God? But how do I get from the wording of this passage, to the idea that God will hold them in eternal shame and contempt even after they cease to exist? It just seems strained to me. (Also, why bothering "awakening" [raising] them, if only to later annihilate them? Wouldn't it be sufficient to punish their souls immediately after physical death, and then annihilate them?)
When the New Testament speaks of everlasting fire, I understand this as a symbol for eternal judgment; the symbolism depicts the fire burning eternally, unquenchable, without end - meaning that the judgment goes on eternally, without end. But if spirits are annihilated, what would be the purpose of keeping the fire burning thereafter?
Also when I read Matthew 25:46, I see "life" contrasted with "punishment". Inasmuch as the life is eternal, the punishment is likewise everlasting. My plainest reading of this is to understand this as saying that those in everlasting punishment are eternally conscious of the punishment - I wouldn't be able to conclude from a plain reading of this passage that they are punished temporarily, and then annihilated for eternity. If this was clarified in other passages, then I could modify my understanding, but it is thus far not clear to me that such a thing is clarified elsewhere.
There is also the passage you noted from Revelation, which says "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night". For this particular group, annihilation doesn't seem to be an option, given the plainest reading of the passage (forever and ever... they have no rest day or night). Similarly, this seems to rule out universalism for at least this particular group.
Also, Jesus says in Matthew 26:24 "woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." As near as I can understand, this passage seems to rule out both universalism and annihilationism. If universalism were a possibility for Judas, then his ultimate fate is definitely better than having never been born. If annihilation were a possibility for Judas, then his ultimate fate is for all intents and purposes the same as if he had not been born. Only ECT (and/or PPP) seems to give Judas an ultimate fate for which it would have been better if he had not been born.
Anyway, that's some of my reasoning, and hopefully addresses your question. | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
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Total Posts : 130
| Posted 2/10/2006 7:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Ricco
Thanks for your reasons for PPP/ECT. Just a quick reply as I must go to bed.
With scripture, you've always got to let the clearer passages interpret the unclear passages. And if Jesus says that we should rather fear the one who can destroy our body and soul in hell, it clearly and simply (to me anyway) is saying that hell is place of destruction. How do you interpret that?
So, i would say that the Daniel passage is not a clear one. It say that some will rise to everlasting life (resurrection, seems quite clear it's a good thing etc.), but others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Now, what is that contempt like? It could be eternal conscious torment, or it could be that the people are disgraced and contempted (??) by punishment and eventual non-existence. I received a nasty letter once, and I showed it contempt by burning it. There's nothing left of the letter, but it's still under contempt from me.
And the reason why the wicked get raised to life is because it's only fair! Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth etc. Evil is done in the body and so a just penalty should be in the body too. However, eternal punishing does seem to be way too much in relation to the sin. How can 70 years of wickedness deserve an eternity of torment?
With everlasting fire, what does fire do? Your average 1st century person would know that fire destroys things until they're gone! Wood burns up until there's nothing left but ashes. An eternal fire would burn absolutely anything up that was put in it. And if our God' is a consuming fire, then I have no problem with God keeping on going forever... ;-)
In Matthew 25, the eternal life is a blessing from the Father of inheriting a kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. However, the eternal punishment is to depart into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. If fire burns up, then it's an eternal punishment in terms of consequence rather than duration.
The Revelation 14 passage is more tricky, to be sure. I'll have a go at explaining it another day.
With your point about Judas, why is ceasing to exist better than ECT? We're designed to be alive, to be significant, and have a desire in all of us to keep on going. To not exist any more is a terrifying thought, even though we won't experience it once it's happened (if that makes sense!). But if the wicked will live forever, albeit not very comfortably, what's to stop them from getting used to the pain? Humans are quite good at that!
So with Judas, his ultimate fate is worse than someone who's never been born because he's lost so much! He's lost his reward with Jesus, he's lost his salvation, and now all he's got ahead of him is a terrifying wait for judgement, terrible punishment, and then ceasing to exist any more. An still-born child has missed out on opportunities and potential, but throwing away potential is even worse.
Thanks for you points though!
Blessings
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 6/2/2006 1:19 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/2/2006 4:33 PM (GMT -6) | |
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http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=23
06/03/2006
Can a Loving God Cast People into hell? |
Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon
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 Have you ever wondered and asked the question, “How can a loving God cast people into hell?” Well, on this week’s program Fr. Chris and Emmy have the pleasure of welcoming Fr. Patrick Reardon who will enlighten us all as he addresses this question and provides an explanation that many may be surprised with. Fr. Patrick will focus his discussion that Our God is a loving God, affirming the dignity of our free world, accomplishing our salvation, letting us go where we want to go; going our own way. Be sure to tune in to what is truly to be an eye-opening experience this week. |
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 6/3/2006 8:08:42 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/2/2006 4:36 PM (GMT -6) | | | ALSO in a previous broadcast of the same interview:
01/10/2004
Can a loving God cast people into Hell? |
Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon
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| Have you ever wondered and asked the question, “How can a loving God cast people into hell?” Well, on this week’s program Fr. Chris and Emmy have the pleasure of welcoming Fr. Patrick Reardon who will enlighten us all as he addresses this question and provides an explanation that many may be surprised with. Fr. Patrick will focus his discussion that Our God is a loving God, affirming the dignity of our free world, accomplishing our salvation, letting us go where we want to go; going our own way. Be sure to tune in to what is truly to be an eye-opening experience this week. |
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 6/3/2006 8:11:30 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 6/3/2006 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Interesting stuff!
Not quite sure about a couple of things he said...
1) That hell is the eternal absence of God. How does that match with Revelation saying that people will be tortured in the presence of the Lamb? God's presence is a consuming fire, and those who are in Christ can walk around in the fire, but everyone else gets burned up.
2) That hell is actually a grace of God because someone who hates God would really hate being in God's presence in heaven. I would say that hell is awful for people because it is so full of with God. If people hate God then they won't like being near him.
He also said that everyone who goes to hell does so because of their own choice. That's very true I reckon.
Mention was made about the parable of Lazarus and how there was a great big gulf between heaven and hell. The only problem there is that it's talking about Hades, which is a different place altogether. Hades is the waiting room when we die: it's either a fearful wait for punishment, or it's a beautiful rest as we wait to judge all creation with Jesus. Hell is a different place: it's a burning rubbish tip (gehenna) where all the refuse from the old creation is incinerated and got rid of.
The guy also talked about Jesus ascending to Hell and liberating the captives. Again, in the greek it is Hades, which is where all the dead people are. So Jesus went and liberated all of them, but that's different to liberating hell. I don't believe Hell really exists yet, or at least it's not got anyone in it yet.
But interesting stuff...
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 6/3/2006 9:11 PM (GMT -6) | | If Hell were all about dying to sin, then why does the Bible over and over call us to die to sin NOW, in this life? If uni-ism is true, then in the end the call to repentance (the call to die to sin and self) can just as well be given in Hell, and in fact will be given there.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
(Note that only the overcomer is promised to "inherit all things," and to be God's child, while the other category of persons, "the fearful, the unbelieving, etc...are explicitly excluded from the category of the overcomers, in the lake of fire, which is the second death." It would be interesting to watch the verbal backflips necessary for the universalist to explain how the above passage fits into his universalist concept).
Rev 22:11 He acting unjustly, let him still act unjustly. And the filthy, let him be filthy still. And the righteous, let him be righteous still. And the holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.
(Again, those "who do His commandments" are the only ones whom John says will be allowed to enter into the city, while outside are those who are excluded from the city of God. I honestly don't see how passages like this make any sense at all if universalism is true).
God commands all men everywhere to repent NOW, not to bide their time and think they will be given a second chance after death.
John
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 6/4/2006 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...The votes are in. ECP wins it. "The soul...the soul...the soul is in tormeeeeent! They don't need no water, let the mu#$@$##s suffer!
Suffer, mu@#$#@#$...SUFFER!"(Some of y'all don't remember that old 70s funk, huh?  )
Mephi,
I JUST read this. You are too funny!
Now I'll never be able to think about Hell without hearing that song in my head!!! hahaha.
nice.
T
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 6/4/2006 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | | John: If Hell were all about dying to sin, then why does the Bible over and over call us to die to sin NOW, in this life? If uni-ism is true, then in the end the call to repentance (the call to die to sin and self) can just as well be given in Hell, and in fact will be given there.
Corey: Universalist don't deny that we are called to repentance NOW. It profoundly matters. Just think of the seven "the kingdom of God is like..." parables in Mathew. The bottom line point of all those parables is that there will be a judgement, where the righteous will be separated from the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be forcibly sentanced (not self-select, as C.S. Lewis suggests) to the second death. We all will die to sin/self, either voluntarily now or forcefully later. Choosing to do it now is much better.
Scripture: Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
Corey: Yes!
Scripture: Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Corey: Yes!
John: (Note that only the overcomer is promised to "inherit all things," and to be God's child, while the other category of persons, "the fearful, the unbelieving, etc...are explicitly excluded from the category of the overcomers, in the lake of fire, which is the second death." It would be interesting to watch the verbal backflips necessary for the universalist to explain how the above passage fits into his universalist concept).
Corey: What backflips? I don't deny or challenge these verses whatsoever. Sorry for the boring show.
Scripture: Rev 22:11 He acting unjustly, let him still act unjustly. And the filthy, let him be filthy still. And the righteous, let him be righteous still. And the holy, let him be holy still.
Corey: Yes!
Scripture: Rev 22:14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
Corey: Yes!
Scripture: Rev 22:15 But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.
Corey: Yes!
John: (Again, those "who do His commandments" are the only ones whom John says will be allowed to enter into the city, while outside are those who are excluded from the city of God. I honestly don't see how passages like this make any sense at all if universalism is true).
Corey: Agreed. No one will enter the kingdom of God except through the gate. No one's gettin' in over the wall.
John: God commands all men everywhere to repent NOW, not to bide their time and think they will be given a second chance after death.
Corey: Yep. Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
-------
Now, speaking of backflips, I wonder how you deal with the "ALL" language in these verses:
I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Colossians 1:19. For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Romans 5:18. Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
Romans 11:32. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 6/4/2006 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey,
I affirm all the verses you posted, though not as valid universalism proof-texts as you might think.
For instance, in Romans 11:32: "That he MAY be merciful to all" clearly expresses contingency.
Romans 5:18 poses no problem for ECT, either. Just as Adam LED people into sin (not coercively, but by influence), even so Christ leads all to pardon with God--if they are willing.
Col. 1:19 -- I certainly affirm that the purpose of Christ's mission was and is to reconcile all things to himself. However, if taken as being a definite certainty instead of as a real possibility (as I hold) we must admit that this verse teaches that even Satan will be reconciled to God. So many scriptures speak to the contrary, that to affirm such an idea would make the Bible to contradict itself.
1 Cor 15:22 -- Since not all are doomed forever if they follow Adam (if they repent they will find mercy), then likewise Christ's provision of salvation in Him is offered to all and truly available to all, though not coercively guaranteed, as the universalist position asserts.
I was very disappointed, both by your sarcastic tone as well as your nonsubstantive responses to the verses I posted earlier. But I've learned to expect that sort of thing from universalists. It's as if the verses which speak of eternal separation between two classes of people, the saved and the lost, mean nothing to the universalist. If that is the way you wish to persuade others to your view, then you are not likely to gain many converts to your damnable, Christ-denying doctrine of universalism.
Sincerely,
John
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Torkuda
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Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 6/4/2006 9:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Part of me can't believe what I'm seeing. Will the lost burn in hell forever, or disappear forever?
Lets put it this way, if a boy falls into a pool of electric eels, would it bother you to see people debating which would kill him first, the eels or the water? It would bother me! Where's the rope, get em outta there!
Can someone tell me, if that's the real subject of this debate, why is it so important to you?
Now to this idea: people go to hell because they want to and/or don't want to go to heaven.
How many of you honestly believe any one who's not a sadist really wants to go to hell? How many think there are really people out there who don't want to go to a perfect eternal paradise? How many of you honestly think this is a question of "want" in the end?
In a story of mine, two people get into an arguement about abortion. The debate is off subject, but I think what the anti-abortionists eventually says rings true here:
my story said...
“Then don’t have sex to begin with if you don’t want a woman pregnant.”
“But they want to have sex.”
“Well the world doesn’t revolve around what you want, it revolves around what you do.
One's eternal destiny is not determined by what he wants, nor what he believes.
As far as my scripture, I've found a good article about this:
to further explain my own beliefs, I'll reference my own site on my core beliefs page:
(third belief statement)
To the idea that its a matter of belief or the following of certain traditions, these days I find that a rather silly idea. If someone gave me one logical concrete condition for salvation outside devoting youself to righteousness, my hats off to you, but generally I don't hear that.
The Catholics have an endless list of does and don'ts and at one point the Pope himself supported the idea that one could pay his way out of hell or use artifacts from Bible stories some what like charms.
The Baptists say one only needs believe in Jesus. Trouble is, believe what about Him? Do they think that only those with a compelete understanding of the life and significance of Jesus even have a chance at heaven? If no, then why when ever they have disagreements, do they begin to question the salvation of the people they're debating with? If this is the prayer of salvation:
"Dear Lord, come into my heart, I commit my life to you, please forgive me, and be my savior."
why is it essentially, finding four different ways to say the same thing? But from what I was taught as a child, if you fail to say it in a manner at least similar to this, you go to hell anyway. Tough luck I guess if ya miss a few words.
Some say if you don't immediately break down and start shouting out giberish and blabbering like a madman (speaking in tounges they call it, but I have my doubts) some reason, we don't necessarily no why but, for some reason, God didn't accept you.
Others say, that it is possible to fall away from grace once it is recieved. Course very few of them can say exactly what one would do to loose salvation so I suppose they must live their lives in fear. | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 6/5/2006 9:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Torkuda: Part of me can't believe what I'm seeing. Will the lost burn in hell forever, or disappear forever? [...] Can someone tell me, if that's the real subject of this debate, why is it so important to you?
Corey: Not following you here... I assume you understand that a universalist would answer, C - none of the above. Why does your question assume this is an either/or? I affirm (because I believe it is taught by scripture) that most people are headed for hell, but speculate that once there, when at last they've died to self -- the second death -- and called out in faith that God could/would respond in mercy, through the atonement of Jesus Christ achieved on the cross, to reconcile these condemned souls to himself. Eventually and inevitably, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Depending on the hardness of the heart, this may take aeons.
In my view, this doesn't at all diminish the urgency to repent NOW. Post Edited (Corey) : 6/5/2006 9:56:28 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Torkuda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 6/5/2006 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | To Corey
On the issue of Universalism:
Actually not much discussing of your view is happening here, though if you're alleging its the only ligit disagreement on the issue of damnation presented so far, yes, I agree. You're argueing that the danger is very different than percieved, less urgent even.
Please don't missunderstand when I say less urgent. I know you see it as still important to share the gospel, and I am farmiliar with people assuming me disinguine because of disagreements, so I'll try not to do that to you. I can see, so far, many reasons why, even given your views, it is still important to live a good life and share the good news. Actually, I was going to respond to you separately after reading your posts thoroughly, since yours is the only serious disagreement. In fact, now that you say you believe hell exists, which many universalists deny, I'll have to look very carefully, because that's a view I haven't seen often. I once seriously considered that hell was temorary myself.
To my views of the denominations:
Perhaps I have a bad way of presenting myself. I'm entirely too honest at times, but this is what I've seen in the various denominations. I was RAISED as a baptist, so yes, what I said was quite factual about them. I've also studied various other denominations and yes, though my explanations are short and less appealing than they would give, they are true to what I have seen. | | Back to Top | | |
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