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One Love
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   Posted 2/4/2006 1:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok.

I'm really...REALLY...getting frustrated with the whole "it's the theology that's important" thing, with respect to the Creation narrative(s). Particularly where they involve the Adamic couple.

This is what I want someone...ANYONE...to tell me.

What aspects of the Primordial Couple story should be seen as at least POINTERS to actual past occurances, given what Jesus and Paul say using the Creation motifs?

This is from www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=16

Originally man was made to be the created image of God, to live in union with God's divine life, and to rule over all creation. Man's failure in this task is his sin which has also been called his fall.

The "fall" of man means that man failed in his God-given vocation. This is the meaning of Gen 3. Man was seduced by evil (the serpent) into believing that he could be "like God" by his own will and effort.

In the Orthodox tradition the eating of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is generally interpreted as man's actual taste of evil, his literal experience of evil as such. Sometimes, this eating is also interpreted (as by St. Gregory the Theologian) as man's attempt to go beyond what was possible for him; his attempt to do that which was not yet within his power to realize.

Whatever the details of the various interpretations of the Genesis story, it is the clear doctrine of Orthodoxy that man has failed in his original vocation. He disobeyed God's command through pride, jealousy and the lack of humble gratitude to God by yielding to the temptation of Satan. Thus man sinned. He "missed the mark" of his calling. He transgressed the Law of God (see 1 Jn 3:4). And so he ruined both himself and the creation which he was given to care for and to cultivate. By his sin-and his sins -- man brings himself and all creation under the rule of evil and death.

In the Bible and in Orthodox theology these elements always go together: sin, evil, the devil, suffering and death. There is never one without the other, and all are the common result of man's rebellion against God and his loss of communion with Him. This is the primary meaning of Gen 3 and the chapters which follow until the calling of Abraham. Sin begets still more sin and even greater evil. It brings cosmic disharmony, the ultimate corruption and death of everyone and everything. Man still remains the created image of God -- this cannot be changed -- but he fails to keep his image pure and to retain the divine likeness. He defiles his humanity with evil, perverts it and deforms it so that it cannot be the pure reflection of God that it was meant to be. The world also remains good, indeed "very good," but it shares the sorry consequences of its created master's sin and suffers with him in mortal agony and corruption. Thus, through man's sin the whole world falls under the rule of Satan and "lies in wickedness" (1 Jn 5:19; see also Rom 5:12).

The Genesis story is the divinely-inspired description in symbolic terms of man's primordial and original possibilities and failures. It reveals that man's potency for eternal growth and development in God was turned instead into man's multiplication and cultivation of wickedness and his transformation of creation into the devil's princedom, a cosmic cemetery "groaning in travail" until saved once more by God (Rom 8:19-23). All the children of Adam, i.e. all who belong to the human race, share in this tragic fate. Even those born this very minute as images of God into a world essentially good are thrown immediately into a deathbound universe, ruled by the devil and filled with the wicked fruit of generations of his evil servants.


Ok...

I'm asking this very sincerely. It's really starting to bug me.

Is all that we are supposed to glean from the Creation narratives is the bare fact that sometime...long, long ago...in a place far, far away...God, by whatever means, created humanity in God's image, (whatever THAT means)...and then, that humanity, by whatever means, separated itself from God? To the point where Christ had to come and be the "second Adam"???


Does ANY of the story need to have historical bases? If so, WHAT?
 
I understand the genre issues in Genesis.  I understand that it's NOT meant to be historical in the modernistic sense.  It deals with the ever-present and typical realities of human existence.  HOWEVER, it is very clear that the texts DO refer to past in the telling of the story. I'm looking for what kernals of historical occurance the texts rely on in that reference!


Help!!!!! drowning

Post Edited (MephEternal) : 2/4/2006 12:50:57 AM (GMT-6)

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Sahid
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   Posted 2/4/2006 3:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm no help, but I don't believe the term "sin" comes into play until God warns Cain that it is crouching at his door. Something happened with the fruit, but Genesis doesn't call it sin or evil (to my knowledge).


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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One Love
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   Posted 2/4/2006 11:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok, y'all.

Reprinting this part...from Wright. (emphasis mine)

"Paul clearly believed that there had been a single first pair, whose male, Adam, had been given a commandment and had broken it. Paul was, we may be sure, aware of what we would call mythical or metaphorical dimensions to the story, but he would not have regarded these as throwing doubt on the existence, and primal sin, of the first historical pair."

Most of the conservative scholars I'm seeing seem say the SAME THING. Paul wouldn't have taken the Genesis account in a way of scientism. But he would NOT have doubted that their WAS a primal couple who, in a garden-like environment, committed a primal sin that had ramifications for all humanity. It's crucial to some of his theologically-significant claims in Romans! There was SOME aspect of historicity there.

Post Edited (MephEternal) : 2/4/2006 10:40:14 AM (GMT-6)

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Similitude
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   Posted 2/4/2006 12:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Meph: What aspects of the Primordial Couple story should be seen as at least POINTERS to actual past occurances, given what Jesus and Paul say using the Creation motifs?
 
Jeff: Yes, the "pointers" are the issue, I would think. Doesn't Doc argue that historians, for reasons necessary to the inductive method, assume that a text is true in it's most face value meaning unless that meaning contradicts what we know on more solid grounds? And doesn't he say that one would only reject the gospels, therefore, on anti-supernatural grounds? So what would cause us to reject the historicity of Genesis other than evidence from more solid grounds that are extra-biblical? But if this is our grounds for rejection of the text, then what hermeneutical criteria gets us BACK INTO the text with any objectivity?
 
I'm with you, Meph. There doesn't seem to be any OBJECTIVE way to make it work. Each person can cut and paste as his/her experience deems necessary. But that seems to be pretty much the end of the matter.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 2/4/2006 12:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff:
So what would cause us to reject the historicity of Genesis other than evidence from more solid grounds that are extra-biblical? But if this is our grounds for rejection of the text, then what hermeneutical criteria gets us BACK INTO the text with any objectivity?

YES.

There probably wouldn't even be discussions about "progressive creationism" if it weren't for our findings on early hominid development and evolution. But once we consider hominid development and evolution, we are now in conversation with that data that affects HOW we interpret the Creation narratives. Gets really sticky.
 
But unfortunately, we have people talking about male/female relations AND homosexuality from the Creation narratives insofar as they appeal to Jesus and Paul.

And for all the Doc fans out there. Please remember that his theodicy HINGES on the "restoration view" which definitely REQUIRES a historical act of human insurrection against God that re-empowers Satan in the first place. This is what I feel is strongly problematic...but I know why he does it. It's the only way biblically he saw how one could say that sin and death came from the one man Adam. Re-read the book. You'll see what I'm talking about.

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J.N.Darby
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   Posted 2/4/2006 2:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MephEternal wrote:
There probably wouldn't even be discussions about "progressive creationism" if it weren't for our findings on early hominid development and evolution. But once we consider hominid development and evolution, we are now in conversation with that data that affects HOW we interpret the Creation narratives. Gets really sticky.

J.N.Darby wrote: Personally, I cast a lot more doubt on how findings and evidence are interpreted by the naturalistic orthodoxy prevelant within scientific institutes , than I ever would upon the Genesis which Christ and His Apostles affirmed without reservation. For some alternate views:
From Christian perspectives: www.answersingenesis.org , "Icons of Evolution" by Jonathan Wells, "Darwin on Trial" by Phillip Johnson.
From Non-Christian perspectives: "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis" by Michael Denton, "Shattering the Myths of Darwinism" by Richard Milton ( http://www.alternativescience.com/shattering-the-myths-of-darwinism.htm ); see also http://www.alternativescience.com/darwinism-faq.htm & http://www.alternativescience.com/faq_or_fiction.htm ...

MephEternal wrote:
And for all the Doc fans out there. Please remember that his theodicy HINGES on the "restoration view" which definitely REQUIRES a historical act of human insurrection against God that re-empowers Satan in the first place. This is what I feel is strongly problematic...but I know why he does it. It's the only way biblically he saw how one could say that sin and death came from the one man Adam. Re-read the book. You'll see what I'm talking about.

J.N.Darby wrote: The Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy does not HINGE on the "restoration view" (the gap theory). From Boyd's "God at War":
"A good deal can be said in favor of the restoration theory. However, I am by no means claiming that this handling of the creation-conflict stories in scripture is the only way to handle them. Nor would I want to invest too much weight in such a speculative matter. While the case for the restoration view is defensible and compelling, the evidence is nevertheless admittedly tentative and controversial and should not be raised to the level of a doctrine. Now would I want the credibility of the warfare worldview to depend on this tentative theory alone. The Bible's warfare understanding of evil remains intact even if the restoration understanding of Genesis 1 is rejected..."

Personally, I'm a young-earth creationist, and while I admit that Mr. Boyd makes the most convicing case for the gap-theory I've ever encountered, I recognize that young-earth creationism and the Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy lend themselves to each other perfectly well (especially considering that this combination is arguably the view represented by the early post-apostolic Christians, in the 2nd and 3rd centuries).

Post Edited (John N. Darby) : 2/4/2006 3:07:18 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/4/2006 3:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
JND:
The Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy does not HINGE on the "restoration view" (the gap theory). From Boyd's "God at War":

"A good deal can be said in favor of the restoration theory. However, I am by no means claiming that this handling of the creation-conflict stories in scripture is the only way to handle them. Nor would I want to invest too much weight in such a speculative matter. While the case for the restoration view is defensible and compelling, the evidence is nevertheless admittedly tentative and controversial and should not be raised to the level of a doctrine. Now would I want the credibility of the warfare worldview to depend on this tentative theory alone. The Bible's warfare understanding of evil remains intact even if the restoration understanding of Genesis 1 is rejected..."


Correction. I should have said it hinges for old earth creationists or theistic evolutionists. You are right that it wouldn't for young-earthers.


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God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
 
"Hmm.  Why not?  What the hell.  Let's try it."
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JET
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   Posted 2/4/2006 11:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's where I am currently:
 
1.  The scientific community (and the whole scientific enterprise) have/has been amazingly successful in many, many ways that may be readily observed by a non-scientitist such as myself.
 
2.  It has been my observation that evolutionary theory is the clear consensus (an understatement) among the mainstream scientific community.  There are many Christian and other theist and non-theist scientists who accept evolutionary theory.  I can't be sure about anyone's motives, but it is my distinct impression that the few scientists defending some type of biblical creationism do so for religious reasons.  I have never heard of an atheist scientist whose scientific conclusions regarding origins resemble anything like biblical creationism.  In short, evolution is the only view that is widely held by both theist and non-theist scientists.
 
3.  I am totally incapable of coming to an independent conclusion as to the scientific arguments on my own.  However, based on my life experience, I have no reason to be suspicious of the clear consensus view held by the mainstream scientific community.
 
4.  Moreover, I have come to see how evolution can fit within the doctrines of creation, sin, fall, etc., and what I've found to be a viable theodicy.  It not only fits, I find it philosphically and aesthetically satisfying.
 
5.  Given the above, I tend to not really see any "kernals of historical occurance" in the Genesis creation accounts.
 
(I take it as a matter of faith that God has something to say to us through the narrative.  However, neither I nor anyone else is in a position to be absolutely certain what, if anything, God specificlly intended to for us to receive from any particular part of the narrative by way of any particular theological point.  When has anybody EVER had access to CERTAINTY?  For example, I cannot be certain that Doc's "Love and the Knowledge of Good and Evil"/"Repenting of Religion" thing is THE theological point that God intended for all people at all time to get from the account of the tree in the garden.  However, its still good theology, subjectively speaking.)
 
6.  Regarding jeffscott's statement:
 
"But if [extra-biblical evidence] is our grounds for rejection of the text, then what hermeneutical criteria gets us BACK INTO the text with any objectivity?
 
This seems to assume that by rejecting the historicity of Genesis we are giving up an hermeneutical approach that provided an objective way into the text to begin with.  However, this is a non-issue if (as I believe) our interpretations are inherently, necessarily and pervasively subjective regardless of whether we accept or reject the historicity of the narratives.
 
7.  I won't convince MephE of this point, but I don't think that rejecting the historicity of the Genesis narratives changes things that much with respect to our reading of the NT.  It is not as though there is some perfect hermeneutic or interpretive certainty at stake when it comes to Jesus and Paul.  Our interpretation of Jesus and Paul is inherently subjective regardless of whether we accept or reject the historicity of the Genesis narratives.
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One Love
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   Posted 2/4/2006 11:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
JET:
I take it as a matter of faith that God has something to say to us through the narrative. However, neither I nor anyone else is in a position to be absolutely certain what, if anything, God specificlly intended to for us to receive from any particular part of the narrative by way of any particular theological point. When has anybody EVER had access to CERTAINTY?

Does your perspective on the Creation narratives in any way affect your view of

1) Jesus's teaching on marriage
2) Paul's teaching about all sin coming from "Adam"
3) The author of 1 Timothy's idea about women teachers?


The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
 
"Hmm.  Why not?  What the hell.  Let's try it."
                                            --God
 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 2/5/2006 12:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I was going to post this on the Inerrancy thread, but I this looks like a good place to put it. 

It’s funny how many Christians (usually those who lean towards a more post conservative position), though they may not hold consciously to sola scriptura, react and respond to some theological issues as if sola scriptura is their guiding canon.  By that I mean, for example, that if a doctrine or teaching in the Church is contradicted by philosophical theology (i.e. Universalism), what do we mean when we say we don’t hold to sola scriptura?  Do we simply say, “Well, it may be true philosophically, but biblically speaking it doesn’t have a leg to stand on.  Therefore, we will have to chuck the philosophical view and accept the MORE PROBLEMATIC (ECP or Eternal Conscious Punishment view) usually taken as the BIBLICAL view?”

 

Well, in speaking of inerrancy debate, sola scriptura is raised to such high levels once again.  It is simply a different context for the same question.  In the inerrancy debate, the problem for some Christians, is that if there are ANY errors in the Bible, then how can we trust it for theological accuracy?

 

In other words, this becomes a question concerning the AUTHORITY of the Bible for FAITH AND PRACTICE.  How would the Bible be authoritative then?  Could not the Bible be wrong on a host of theological issues?  For example, if Paul was wrong on the HISTORICITY of the Adamic couple, what are the implications on gender relations when Paul speaks of the creational ORDER in 1 Corinthians 11, (i.e. Paul is using the historicity question to validate his theological point)?

 

What this question does is basically bring up the idea that inerrancy, as a relatively recent view of scripture, has not really been thought through clearly by inerrantists.

 

Now, there HAVE BEEN various attempts to deal with the “discrepancies” of the Bible. Among them are harmonization and another is by associating it with SIGNIFICANT matters such as belief or behavior that have to do with salvation.  On this second one we still run into the same wall raised above—how can we trust it for theological accuracy when it is historically inaccurate?  Take for example, 2 Kings 17:25.  If the Bible is mistaken in saying that God told the Israelites to kill the Canaanites, then it is mistaken either theologically or morally or both and NOT MERELY HISTORICALLY.  Not to mention that within scripture there is usually an interrelation between the theological and ethical and the historical and factual.

 

So how do we “solve” the dilemma if it should be solved at all?  Well scripture ITSELF indicates that authors will speak with not pinpoint accuracy, but with approximation and uncertainty or in such a way that one is subject to minor correction.  This happens in 1 Cor 1:14-16.  Paul says that he baptized Crispus and Gaius but then remembers that he baptized Stephana’s family.  Then he goes on to safeguard his position by saying that he can’t remember if he baptized anyone else.  If we attribute inspiration and inerrancy to Paul it would have to be of the kind that is compatible with uncertainty and minor inaccuracy of what happened which is part and parcel that comes from being a human with gaps of knowledge of which the Holy Spirit CHOOSES not to fill in as a part of inspiration.  That is to say, that ALL human writing (and specifically historiography) is prone to human error such that one could say, “Hey, this is as accurate as my sources allow.”  Such an admission doesn’t say that the general work is not valid, it is merely to say that scripture is no different in this regard as other works of writing.  There are judgments in scripture which IMPLY FIRM ASSERTIONS; others have PROBABILITY OR PERSONAL OPINION.  To say that God is involved in the formulation does not change the fact that they are these things. 

 

While scripture, at times, will aim towards precision, it is satisfied with giving an  approximation.  An analogy would be to see scripture more as a portrait rather than a photograph, which in some ways conveys truth more accurately because whereas the portrait underplays some features while exaggerating others (of it’s subject), a photograph does not.

 

Now if we have a generally historical work in which we find unhistorical elements, does this mean that inspiration is in jeopardy?  No.  One does not need to vindicate the author’s historicity NOR does one need to assume that the author was AWARE that he was writing LEGEND rather than fact.  The writings of these authors wrote in an ancient form in which history, again, is subject to uncertainty, approximation or correction.  Which is to say that this form of writing involves being less critical than as we practice historiography today.

 

What does this mean in terms of the question raised above?  Well, it doesn’t follow that just because an author was wrong or mistaken on certain points, that we must chuck the authors whole work.  Only when we have decided in advance that history must be inerrant that the discovery of ONE MISTAKE puts the whole of authority in jeopardy.  The assumption here is that inspiration MUST make a claim for accuracy, when that is not the case at all.  Inspiration, as Matthew Henry put it, does not change the way a narrator works.  So in terms of the question above (on Paul and the Adamic couple and more specifically, if Paul was wrong about Eve COMING FROM Adam, and not necessarily their historicity per se, because that is the real question for the theological point on creational order), inspiration doesn’t furnish the author with extra information about history, cosmology or science.  One could move toward a parabolic approach, but this is problematic because it moves from the literal to a figurative method of interpretation arbitrarily wherever the former threatens the inerrancy of the text.  God simply spoke in scripture through the narratives that express the cosmological  and historical understanding of the writers of the day.  God did not choose to reveal something more adequate to the readers.  Inspiration simply does not make up for lack of information.  Asking THESE questions, it seems to me to be similar to saying that because God is Father, he is male rather than female from which false inferences can be derived.

 

Let’s look at this for a moment from a slightly different angle.  Jesus spoke about divorce.  He said that Moses gave certain laws because of hardness of heart.  Though we may see those laws as divinely inspired, we could also say that they are not something that God would IDEALLY want to say.  Inspiration does not change the way narrative works.  Inspiration is concerned with purpose of effect (scripture is inspired because it effects history and in which God’s declared purpose will stand) and meaningful (it extends past the original authors).

 

As such, the question which asks about the historicity of the Adamic couple is a question of the inerrancy of history as a parallel correlation of the inerrancy of scripture debate itself.  It’s simply applied to history and shows the extent to which sola scriptura (a high view of the Bible) has influenced our understanding and methodology of scripture and scripture interpretation.  It is a question which demands inerrancy of which the authors knew nothing of.

 

We live in a rationalist age and that which is not factual is usually not taken seriously.  Those points which are unhistorical can contribute to a portrait that is both effective and meaningful for it’s hearers—to bring Jesus to us.  As Origen said, we don’t pay attention merely to those parts that are factual but to the WHOLE.  Each detail, whether factual or not contributes to the true portrait.  As it is, not as we expect it to be.  THIS, it seems to me to be what others mean by saying, "It's the theology stupid!"


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 2/5/2006 12:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BBBCanada said...

 

We live in a rationalist age and that which is not factual is usually not taken seriously.  Those points which are unhistorical can contribute to a portrait that is both effective and meaningful for it’s hearers—to bring Jesus to us.  As Origen said, we don’t pay attention merely to those parts that are factual but to the WHOLE.  Each detail, whether factual or not contributes to the true portrait.  As it is, not as we expect it to be.  THIS, it seems to me to be what others mean by saying, "It's the theology stupid!"

 
 < smile >


 
(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/5/2006 12:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
We live in a rationalist age and that which is not factual is usually not taken seriously. Those points which are unhistorical can contribute to a portrait that is both effective and meaningful for it’s hearers—to bring Jesus to us. As Origen said, we don’t pay attention merely to those parts that are factual but to the WHOLE. Each detail, whether factual or not contributes to the true portrait. As it is, not as we expect it to be. THIS, it seems to me to be what others mean by saying, "It's the theology stupid!"

I...think...I'm...about...to...#*$#in'...lose...it...

I swear...


The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
 
"Hmm.  Why not?  What the hell.  Let's try it."
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One Love
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   Posted 2/5/2006 12:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok...ok...calm down, Meph...

Let's make this very practical.

Some people don't let women be pastors or bishops either directly or indirectly from the Creation narrative(s).

See the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
www.cbmw.org

Can you see ANY DIFFERENCE to the discussion if one, for whatever reason, denies the historicity of an Adamic couple and their "marriage"?
 
The Danvers Statement
 
Some of the affirmations...
 
Based on our understanding of Biblical teachings, we affirm the following:
  1. Both Adam and Eve were created in God's image, equal before God as persons and distinct in their manhood and womanhood (Gen 1:26-27, 2:18).
     
  2. Distinctions in masculine and feminine roles are ordained by God as part of the created order, and should find an echo in every human heart (Gen 2:18, 21-24; 1 Cor 11:7-9; 1 Tim 2:12-14).
     
  3. Adam's headship in marriage was established by God before the Fall, and was not a result of sin (Gen 2:16-18, 21-24, 3:1-13; 1 Cor 11:7-9).

Any at all, Brandon?

Post Edited (MephEternal) : 2/5/2006 12:12:24 AM (GMT-6)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 2/5/2006 1:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Man, I have to go to bed cause I have to work in morning. I will try to get back on it more fully later today.  But that seems to me to be a question of authority over inerrancy which is a totally different question altogether.  The stories of the virgin birth and the infant Jesus are considered midrashic by scholars outside of the conservative and inerrantist circles.  Yet they are still authoritative.  So in one sense, I don't think it really does matter.  This to me seems to be part of the issue.  Your insisting that Paul had to believe there to be a historical element in order for Paul to make his point about creation order and gender relations and I don't know if we can say that.  Paul may or may not have been aware of historicity.  It could have been legend (Genesis accounts are in part adapted from creational accounts from surrounding cultures).


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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JET
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   Posted 2/5/2006 2:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MephE:  Does your perspective on the Creation narratives in any way affect your view of

1) Jesus's teaching on marriage
2) Paul's teaching about all sin coming from "Adam"
3) The author of 1 Timothy's idea about women teachers?
 
1)  I don't see Jesus' teaching about marriage/divorce as a syllogism where the premise must be true in order for the conclusion ("let man not separate") to be valid. 
 
Mark 10 seems typical of Jesus' interaction with the Pharisees.  The Pharisees wanted to catch Jesus with a tricky legal question about divorce.  Jesus asks, "What did Moses command you?"  The Pharisees say, "Moses permitted divorce".  Jesus then uses the "law" (which includes the creation narratives) to teach the opposite of what the Pharisees assumed was the correct legal answer.  In this light, Jesus' use of the creation narrative seems typical of Jesus' rhetorical interaction with the Pharisees (and typical of Jesus' imaginative use of the law for his higher purposes).
 
Interestingly, it is the author of Gen. 2:24 who originally uses the idea of the Adamic couple to explain the phenomenon of marriage ("for this reason . . .").  Jesus is merely co-opting this author's idea (rhetorically) over and against the technically correct view of the Pharisees (that Moses permitted divorce).
 
My subjective intepretation:  Jesus rejects a legalistic approach in favor of a love ethic:  Don't get divorced just because Moses permitted it.  Stay married!
 
Answer:  No.  I don't see how this is really affected by my perspective on the creation narratives.
 
2)  I  don't think Paul's teaching regarding all sin coming from Adam is particularly important.  What seems to be important is what comes through the one man, Jesus Christ.  Paul (who I assume believed in a historical Adamic couple) is juxtapositioning Adam in order to point to Christ.
 
3)  Paul's view on women teachers was no doubt influenced more by Paul's culture than his belief in an historical Adamic couple.  (Paul's argument here is just strange:  Paul says it was the woman who became a sinner, yet elsewhere Paul makes much of Adam as the original sinner.  And Adam being formed first does not logically, deductively preclude equality.  And how are women saved through childbirth?)  However, given Paul's culturally bound views on women*, his argument from Genesis is understandable.
 
But, as you know, there are lots of arguments in favor of "biblical egalitarianism" that have nothing to do with whether one accepts or rejects the historicity of the Genesis narrative.  So no, I don't think my perspective on the creation narratives affects my view on this passage.
 

Post Edited (JET) : 2/5/2006 1:32:43 AM (GMT-6)

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J.N.Darby
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   Posted 2/5/2006 7:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
JET said...
Paul's view on women teachers was no doubt influenced more by Paul's culture than his belief in an historical Adamic couple. (Paul's argument here is just strange: Paul says it was the woman who became a sinner, yet elsewhere Paul makes much of Adam as the original sinner. And Adam being formed first does not logically, deductively preclude equality. And how are women saved through childbirth?) However, given Paul's culturally bound views on women*, his argument from Genesis is understandable.


There's a book by John Temple Bristow titled "What Paul Really Said about Women" that I think you all might find particularly enlightening. The common understanding that Paul's teaching regarding women were a mere by-product of a misogynistic milieu is both a misreading of Paul (given the overall New Testament context) and a lack of knowledge concerning the issues Paul was dealing with at the time he was writing (such as certain gnostic teachings).
In any case, however we may interpret some of the seemingly difficult passages concerning women, our interpretation needs to include and square with other passages such as these:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,
2 that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,
4 who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

1 Cor 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. [Consider how Christ treated the women He encountered.]

For an example of what you might expect to learn from Bristow's book, consider this passage:
1 Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

The average person reading this passage will just assume that by "the law", Paul is referring to the Torah. But it seems that the Torah contains no such law. However, such a law would have been characteristic of the Hellenistic culture of Corinth. Why would Paul have any interest in encouraging Christians to keep a local law or custom? To avoid drawing undue negative attention. Col 4:5 "Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside..." 1 Th 4:11-12 "...that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly toward those who are outside..."

Consider also 1 Cor 11:16 (NKJV) "But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God." This follows a passage speaking of hair length, in regards to both men and women. For example, a few verses before we read "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?" But what is interesting is that this is contrary to what we know of Hebrew culture (2 Sam 14:25-26), including the Nazirite vow (Numbers 6, a vow which it seems Paul himself practiced in Acts 18:18). Given what we know of ancient Hebrew culture, and Hellenistic culture, a likely paraphrase of 1 Cor 11:16 could read "But if any amongst you Corinthians seem to be contentious, just consider that the Jews have no such custom as you have, nor do the churches of God."

Paul's savvy concerning the cultural differences between the Jews and the Greeks is evident throughout his epistles, and especially so in the passages concerning women which seem to boggle so many modern readers. But with a little insight on the issues Paul was dealing with, one can not only shed their misconceptions of Paul as a male-chauvinist, but also see how progressive and liberating his teachings concerning women actually were, given the Hellenistic setting in which he wrote.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=Yc1QJl7CiW&isbn=0060610638&itm=1
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One Love
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   Posted 2/5/2006 9:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon,

Ok. scripture as portrait. Sounds good. However, doesn't this mean that we cannot just just take biblical commands as being authoritative JUST BECAUSE a certain person says them? For example, perhaps we could get from the Creation stories that God created all things and felt that Creation was good. But maybe, the whole gender specification/sexuality thing is THOROUGHLY human. And so when Jesus talks about it, his HUMAN opinion is just that. A human opinion. As is Paul's.

Could this not be the case?


The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
 
"Hmm.  Why not?  What the hell.  Let's try it."
                                            --God
 

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Similitude
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   Posted 2/5/2006 11:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jet:  6.  Regarding jeffscott's statement:
 
"But if [extra-biblical evidence] is our grounds for rejection of the text, then what hermeneutical criteria gets us BACK INTO the text with any objectivity?
 
This seems to assume that by rejecting the historicity of Genesis we are giving up an hermeneutical approach that provided an objective way into the text to begin with.  However, this is a non-issue if (as I believe) our interpretations are inherently, necessarily and pervasively subjective regardless of whether we accept or reject the historicity of the narratives.
 
Jeff: Jet, here's the problem I see with the above. If the MEANING of Genesis can be SO different from that entailed in it's words, then the SAME subjectivity would have to be granted for studying the historical Jesus, I would think. Ultimately, both analyses are dependent on the SAME assumption that the WORDS of the authors mean something significantly intelligible. Without that assumption, Doc can trash his Cynic Sage or Son of God. For if the meaning of the NT authors can be as different from what it seems (as many argue for Genesis), we know nothing historically about Jesus or his ressurection.
 
Meph: I...think...I'm...about...to...#*$#in'...lose...it...

I swear...
 
Jeff: LOL!! :p  


 

Post Edited (jefscott) : 2/5/2006 11:00:14 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 2/5/2006 11:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You guys solve it and let me know what conclusion you reach. I'm in Brussels doing course-work. Can't talk!

Mephi, that last cup of coffee we had was a great convo. I'm feeeeeeling it!

Tom


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 2/5/2006 11:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ain't coffee GREAT, Tom??!!


 

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Tom
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   Posted 2/5/2006 7:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, but the coffee here in Brussels stinks! And it's 2 AM and I can't sleep for jetlag!

Tom


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 2/6/2006 6:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Yeah, well if you like coffee, you should try this addiciting crap: http://www.timhortons.com/en/menu/menu_coffee.html

Oh and by the way, here is a long post.

Meph Man said...

Brandon,

Ok. scripture as portrait. Sounds good. However, doesn't this mean that we cannot just just take biblical commands as being authoritative JUST BECAUSE a certain person says them? For example, perhaps we could get from the Creation stories that God created all things and felt that Creation was good. But maybe, the whole gender specification/sexuality thing is THOROUGHLY human. And so when Jesus talks about it, his HUMAN opinion is just that. A human opinion. As is Paul's.


and

Meph Man said...
 

OK.  Let’s look at this.  You asked the question, “Does ANY of the story need to have historical bases? If so, WHAT?”


 

I would not say that it has to have historical bases.  It may have it, but scripture is full of different genres that are not historical in nature but are still authoritative.  We already mentioned this.  I would hope that we don’t walk away from this and say that because something is not historical or factual that that means that it is LESS authoritative.  So it may not be a biblical injunction of factual history, but this doesn’t demand that we don’t take it as authoritative.

 

But this question above concerns authority and HOW WE SHOULD RESPOND TO BIBLICAL COMMANDS (not necessarily commands in scripture such as the Ten Commandments (of course those would be included as well), but inferences such as what might arise from narrative portions of scripture i.e. what we are discussing here, such as the Genesis narratives.

 

First off, specifically on your point above concerning Jesus and sexuality, I don’t know if we should go so far as to say that Jesus had to believe that he was quoting history when he referenced the narrative.  When Jesus spoke in reference to the Genesis narrative his point was not to say, “Hey, let’s have a history lesson.  Let’s go back to THE WAY IT WAS.”  Jesus was not concerned about HISTORY.  He was concerned about the Creator’s INTENT.  Thinking of Paul’s issue on creation order, again, one does not need to think that Paul thought of the Adamic couple as literal only that he may of thought in terms of the narrative of who came first--“This is what the story says.”

 

ON AUTHORITY

Now, you say, “However, doesn't this mean that we cannot just just take biblical commands as being authoritative JUST BECAUSE a certain person says them?”

 

I think you are right on this FIRST point (and I will explain why), but I would not agree with you on your second point which was to say that Jesus’ view on sexuality was Jesus giving his OWN HUMAN opinion.

 

First, there are different senses of authority in scripture and notions of authority apply to situations in which decisions are made, instructions are given or actions are being evaluated.  For example, there is Joshua who has authority with a view to people obeying him Num 27:20.  With Shebna, but the authority destined to be given to another Is 22:21.  There is Esther and Mordecai in enjoining the observance of Purim Esth 9:29.  The Gospels refer to authority that Jesus exercises in teaching on human behavior in the Sermon on the Mount Matt 7:29, expelling Spirits Mark 1:27, forgiving sins Mark 2:10, authority possessed by a centurion and his superiors Matt 8:9 and by other secular powers Lu 20:20.

 

Now, authority can be INTRINSIC TO THE PERSON, something that others will ACKKNOWLEDGE on the basis of their own recognition of the person and his or her words.  But this will not be done because they are REQUIRED TO BY EXTERNAL OR INSTITUTIONAL CONSTRAINT.  And we can see this in Matt 7:29

 

Authority can be EXTRINSIC coming from or deriving from his or her office.  We bow to what is said even though we don’t see any intrinsic good reason for what is said.  And we see this sort of thing a lot in church liturgy as well as in Matt 8:9 in which the centurion expects for his subordinates to obey UNQUESTIONABLY.

 

Now, the word canon is used in different ways.  And although it is not used about scripture WITHIN scripture it would suggest that when applied to scripture is that it can be used both PROSPECTIVELY AND RETROSPECTIVELY.  That is, prospectively speaking, scripture lays down the nature of Christian discipleship and retrospectively scripture TESTS whether that is being lived up to.  And so, what this means is that scripture can be a “light to our feet” as both a believing community and as individuals.  As authority, though the word is not used in scripture of scripture though clearly scripture does show a concern for declaring what God’s authority requires of us.

 

Now, let’s look at something here.  Psalms 119 is the passage with scripture that expresses most systematically as A SET OF ATTITUDES to those words of God that take the form of authoritative canons for behavior—laws, precepts, statutes, decrees, commands, judgments, etc.

 

Now when we are given instructions, this sometimes looks like legalism to many Christians, but to the Jewish way of thinking a command is a GIFT.  Humanity is more fully human when it heeds the command and it is less human when it seeks freedom from that word.  God’s will in proclamation over Israel is not an act of BONDAGE, but rather an act of BINDING.  Israel’s election is put into effect through God’s word.  In this Psalm we have the metaphysical gap between God and man that is crossed from both sides.  That is, God’s command confronts people and people pray in RESPONSE.

 

Now when in the Second Temple period God’s people saw little of God’s activity, they focused more on the Torah in which God had reached out to them and which was their means of reaching out to the God of promise and exodus  WITHOUT THIS MEANING THAT COVENANT-THINKING AND COVENANT-MAKING CEASED.

 

While we could express this Psalm as being legalistic, what it means is that when we are clear on God reaching out to us we can focus on the appropriate response to God that we build on that foundation.  It isn’t just about acts of great redemption that God did in the past but to acts of grace that God is doing and that we can expect for him to do in the future.  What this Psalm says is that there is no tension between God who commands and God who blesses.  The Psalm is not concerned only with outward acts, it is also concerned with joy, wonder and awe such that Jewish spirituality would could say, “Torah-life is joyful…Torah living is a joyful enterprise” which basically meant that the more commands there were the more joy there was for living.  It is not so much that Torah meant REPLACING GOD, rather people RELATED to God by relating to the Torah.   Attentiveness, trust, homage intimacy and belief are terms expressed TO GOD are also expressed in this Psalm to the attitude of towards the Torah.

 

What this means is that our following God’s will can be joyful and (awe)ful but it can also be costly.  Which is to say that much of the commands GO AGAINST the modern culture and contemporary world.  This is one of the reasons why the believing community will delude itself regarding to what extent it must keep God’s authoritative command, however, though it is capable of doing so?  It commits itself to keeping God’s authoritative command.

 

Now, at this point, I know you are probably thinking to yourself, “But Brother Brandon, that doesn’t respond to my question.  How do we keep God’s command when we don’t know WHAT that command is?  How is the Bible authoritative for gender relations?”

 

Well, I’m getting to that.  See, the spiel above is an important precursor for what I’m about to say.

 

Jesus’ temptation in the wilderness will establish whether he will put the same commitment to “God’s Word” into effect.  But what does Jesus do?  He responds to each temptation by saying, “It is written…”  “It is written” is basically, “It is written and that settles it.”  This occurs in Hebrew narrative to indicate or urge compliance with regulations in the Torah or to REGRET noncompliance with them i.e. Josh 8:31, 1 Kings 2:3;2 2 Chron 23:18 30:5 Ezra 3:2, 4 Neh 8:15

 

What is Jesus doing here?  He is taking his stand from Deut 5-11 that describes the basic attitudes God expected of Israel as it keeps its side of the covenant relationship.  Jesus PRESUPPOSES THAT HIS LIFE IS TO BE SHAPED BY THESE IMPERATIVES EXPRESSED IN THE AUTHORITATIVE CANONS GIVEN TO ISRAEL.  One could imply that the ONE TRUE ISRAELITE takes seriously the set of principles for life given in the wilderness but NEVER PROPERLY OBSERVED by them.  Jesus knows the scriptures and he makes them his measuring line by which to live his life.  His insight into the scriptures makes it such that he is enabled to identify at each point a passage that goes to the root of the questionable attitude to God that the three suggestions involve.

 

Jesus is able to discern between that which is “use” and that which is “abuse” of scripture.  Satan is able to appeal to scripture like Jesus (he too has a working knowledge of the scriptures).  Which is to say that FORMAL ACKNOWLEDGMENT of authority is no indicator for SUBSTANTIAL ACKNOWLEDGMENT of it.  Which is to say that a variety of theologians i.e. feminist and South African black theology admit that the Bible has been used as a tool of oppression by those who accept it’s authority but who only use it in their own favor.  scripture in this case is the supreme religious symbol and is not actually preached or read—so don’t accuse Catholics for this kind of thing.

 

And just as for Jesus, scripture has an objective given ness OVER and against us and at least in theory has the capacity to protect us from ourselves.  But the thing is, it can only offer us the POSSIBILITY of escape from our false matrixes or limitations from our present convictions.  It cannot stop us from self-deception if we are set on it. 

 

The devil’s interpretation was Christ-centered, but even here, there is room for abuse.   Maybe he should have been more God-centered as this Jesus responds to him at every point that expresses a pivotal feature of our relationship WITH GOD.

 

So we are to submit to God’s word, worship his name, and trust in God’s promises rather than putting God to the test.  What Jesus does here is sets the clear, direct demand of a fundamental passage in Deuteronomy against the devil’s christiological REAPPLICATION of another passage to a particular set of circumstances.

 

What this means is for us, the believing community for discerning the difference between the use and abuse of scripture (which it is VERY POSSIBLE to see the gender relations debate being, we don’t have to think of abuse as being outright distortion or twisting of scripture) is to test possible applications of scripture by direct assertions of scripture elsewhere.  Hence, the NEED for a broad knowledge of scripture because of the devil’s misuse of it i.e. examples cited above.

 

In part, the devil had, to some extent a plausible interpretation because IT WAS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.  Psalm 91 promises protection to those who dwell in God.  This is, according to some scholars like a royal psalm promising protection to the king in particular and is thus understood messianically in the Second Temple Period.  Hence, the devil is wanting Jesus to prove that what the psalm says about the coming king it says about him. But the devil’s interpretation GOES wrong (there is a hint of truth in it).  He abuses the text toward Jesus because he has abused it exegetically.  If anything this goes to show that we need not only a broad knowledge of the scriptures but we must also take care that we interpret it (not correctly) but in a way that is faithful to it’s assertions.

 

Jesus was a “law-abiding Jew.”  But his controversial stance on some issues were within the parameter of first-century Judaism.  And though he was prepared to be independent and creative, he did not cast the scriptures aside.  As Bultmann said, “Jesus agreed always with the scribes of his time in accepting without question THE AUTHORITY OF THE (OLD TESTAMENT) LAW.”  Christ expected new depths and built his own teachings on the foundation of the Hebrew scriptures ASSUMING THAT THEY SPOKE WITH AUTHORITY.  The were not God’s LAST word (But I say unto you…”) but they were his FIRST word.  And so Jesus put himself under the authority of the scriptures and so put himself under God.

 

A Biblical Approach To Authority

So, what are we to say then concerning authority for us.  Authority and canon are not directly applied to scripture, but scripture is familiar with them.  This may mean that the Bible does not “stand on its own authority.”  While it does at times give commands without reasons (such that “It is written…” is use in this way to denote that scripture is the binding command of God”), it normally gives reasons for the actions it expects. 

 

But scripture is more “unauthoritarian” then people think.  It could be said that scripture reflects the character of God who is not to be found in the “centers of power—in canon, in hierarchy, in group ascendancy—but in powerlessness, not in self-assertion but in anonymity, not in grasping but in emptying.”  God is not interested in controlling people as in giving them freedom and this aspect seems to be reflected in The Book itself.

 

Some scholars say that there is a little grounds for recognizing the Torah as being INHERENTLY LEGALISTIC.  But when we conceptualize scripture as an AUTHORITATIVE CANON we are but a step away from making it a code that kills, 2 Cor 3:6.  James Barr in his book on Fundamentalism has said that according to Romans 7, “a body of instruction and commandment in written form which comes from God and is expressly ‘holy and just and good’ may nevertheless provide an opportunity and incitement for evil.”  And if that is true of the Torah (of which Romans 7 would refer to) it would presumably be true of scriptURE AS AUTHORITATIVE CANON as a whole.

 

Jesus speaks and acts with an authority that he possesses despite his lack of rabbinic credentials Mark 11:27-33 and that he manifests when he is speaking of his own authority and not when he is speaking of the scriptures.  There is a originality and freedom and freshness.  There is also something COMPELLING about them.   Occasionally, Jesus will appeal to his authority (Matt 28:18), but the kind of authority that he has is also reflected in the fact that he uses logic and appeals to reason in his teaching.  He does not simply lay down the law.  How authoritarian is that?  It isn’t the kind of authority we think of when we think of authority.

 

Jesus use of parable is such that he begins from what can be learned from the world that he and his audience share.  He then looks for the response, “Yes that’s true isn’t it? Never saw it that way before, but I see it now that he puts it that way.”  The controversy stories in Mark 2-3 put talk about this.  Jesus is prepared to speak with authority of the Son of Man and of scripture but in EACH OF THESE HE IS URGES PEOPLE TO THINK THINGS OUT FOR THEMSELVES.  The Sermon on the Mount is the same thing.  Here he is talking about behavior.  But here he is going to appeal to reason like any moral teacher while at the same time challenging the normal conventions and attitudes of social life with the radical claim of the reasonableness of another style of behavior.  As I said to Tom in a little MSN convo, Jesus is more like, “This is how I see it, what do you think?  Do you see it too?”  This hardly sounds like the authority we are used to.

 

Paul may stand on his own authority more often than Jesus especially if he is in a corner and nothing else works 1 Cor 11 and 14:13.  When he has no clear directive from the Lord—no word from the earthly Jesus and no direct revelation from the Heavenly Jesus—he expects his words to be treated with authority, though he may expect them to carry less force 1 Cor 7:12, 25, 40, which is to say that though most scholars assume that a command from the Lord and the judgments of a “trustworthy” person or one who has the Spirit of God all have the same level of authority, I would assume that this is not that plausible.  The level of authority may be the same but even referring to the Lord’s word, Paul is not laying down the law but leaving room for believers to come to their own conclusions.

 

Paul’s authority is NOT HIS, but comes TO HIM.  It is not from HIMSELF, but comes from having been commissioned by Christ, from his relationship to the churches and the embodiment of the gospel of crucifixion and resurrection in his own life 2 Cor 4.  Which is to say that Paul’s talk and the way he transform its significance by relating it to the cross POINT AWAY from TOO SUSPICIOUS an attitude to Paul’s talk of his authority.

 

There is Christ’s commission and the preaching of the Gospel (from the commissioning).  And it is through this that Paul becomes the “author” or “creator” or father of the churches.  His authority is based in not only that which is historical but comes from the Gospel which is mediated to the churches.  “Gospel” and “apostle” are correlative terms.  The churches share on EQUAL terms WITH him in the gospel and in its authority, but on the same basis.  Paul only continues to exercise authority OVER them when they fail to embody the Gospel and exercise authority for themselves.  But even here, that authority comes from his own sharing in the Gospel rather than from inhering in him.

 

The Pentateuch works out an authority for canons of behavior most systematically which comes closest to extrinsic and institutional authority.  This may help in understanding it as a whole as Torah which means “teaching” or “direction” in a general kind of way.  It lacks the narrower meaning of “law.”  Israel is expected to be prepared to obey the commands of Torah simply because they are commands.  But when we understand Torah as “law” it suggests legalism.  And legalism is no more characterized in the Israelite faith as than it does in the Christian faith.  Nor does it belong to Torah than it does to Psalm 119.

 

These commands appear in the context of narrative recalling of God’s relating to Israel’s ancestors, delivering them from oppression in Egypt.  Living in context of relationship with God required obedience.  However it was God’s initiative that established the relationship.  This is the same as it is in Christ.

 

In the Torah, there are two kinds of commands.  Some are categorical—“You must not steal.”  Others are like case law saying what must be done if crimes are committed.  Upon first observance, the case laws look stronger than the categorical laws because they mention explicit warnings and punishments.  But the categorical ones are the stronger and more authoritative because indicate no punishment because no disobedience is in view.  They are the firmest possible demands and prohibitions.

 

This would indicate that even they are capable of argument and reasoning.  Which is to say that even the Torah seeks not merely compliance but assent.  When we remove the legalistic connotations from the authoritative canons of the Torah it is easier to see the links between those canons and the authoritative canons of belief and behavior that appear in the teachings of Jesus and Paul.

 

The Gospels have a narrative form like that of Torah.  Jesus teaching on behavior appears in a narrative context relating what God has done for Israel and for the world.  The same with Paul’s teaching.  It appears in a narrative insofar as it is linked theologically with the Gospel.

 

Authority has more to do with shaping behavior in all areas of life more than belief.  This is seen in many of the past forefathers, i.e., Wyclif, Erasmus, Anabaptist theology, Puritans.  Even Fundamentalists are concerned with authority in terms of ethical normative ness.   It is concerned and mostly at home with doing what Jesus says and the Father’s will not merely calling him Lord (right belief, confession) Luke 6:46; Matt 7:21.  If we understand Christianity to be primarily about behavior (as we do with Judaism) then we would expect the category authority to be central to it in a parallel way.

 

If we understand it as primarily a gospel, it becomes a puzzle why the category of authoritative canons has been so important to it.   The category is actually less at home in this context.  This may be why Christians have attributed legalism to the Hebrew Bible and Judaism (which is actually a projection on to them).  Christianity is less comfortable with these categories.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 2/6/2006 6:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What is an historical basis? (I can think of several, and they are all salient.)
  • Events happen, in history.
  • Writings are recorded in appropriate literary form, like chiasm, and covenants.
  • Covenants are RE written, in sich a way as to retain thier event-connection... in such a way as to maintain connections to the older covenants... in such a way as to construct new covenants. Books of the Bible get rewritten and reworked by committees, especially after the Babylonian captivity.
  • Writings are made canon.

ALL FOUR of these are history.

 


 
(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 2/6/2006 5:40:05 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/7/2006 12:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon,

I've read this through 6 times...and I am not getting it. Could you please chunk this down and make it as simple for me as you can. I'd really appreciate it.

*************************

POW:
What is an historical basis? (I can think of several, and they are all salient.)

Events happen, in history.
Writings are recorded in appropriate literary form, like chiasm, and covenants.
Covenants are RE written, in sich a way as to retain thier event-connection... in such a way as to maintain connections to the older covenants... in such a way as to construct new covenants. Books of the Bible get rewritten and reworked by committees, especially after the Babylonian captivity.
Writings are made canon.

ALL FOUR of these are history.


I am focusing more on the first one. All that I am saying is that there are SOME BIBLICAL CLAIMS that end up being problematic unless there is some kernal of EVENT that grounds it. For example, doesn't it matter whether or not there was SOME form of "Exodus" that occurred?


The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
 
"Hmm.  Why not?  What the hell.  Let's try it."
                                            --God
 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 2/7/2006 2:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

OK.  D.  Here’s what I’m saying.  Your question asked about believing something just because someone commanded them.  Well this is an authority question.  It’s basically asking, do we just blindly do something because someone commanded it or just simply because it’s a command.  How does the Bible act authoritatively?

 

I’m basically saying that sometimes authority in scripture is intrinsic as well as extrinsic.  It is intrinsic in the sense that people follow someone based on THEIR OWN RECOGNITION of the authority OF the person.  This person IS authoritative.  Basically people FREELY come under the person’s authority because they recognize that the person IS authoritative.  There will not be some “outside coercion” such as what is implied in your question above.  There is no external or institutional constraint for people to follow a rule, command, or person, etc.  Such people are not following biblical injunctions simply because someone gave them.  They are following them because they recognize that they are authoritative.

I’m saying that authority is EXTRINSIC in that it is DERIVED from the position or office i.e. a police officer, a General of the U.S. Marines.  Both senses are used in scripture.

I’m saying that scripture (command) was seen as a gift from God and that Jewish people joyfully came under its authority such that the legal connotations that we the Christian community have projected on to Judaism should be seen as false.  Judaism was no more legalistic than Christianity is.  People related to God by relating to Torah (or direction) by way of covenant (the Torah and any commands must be seen against the backdrop of relationship-covenant).

I’m saying that Jesus was a “law-abiding Jew” and he shaped his life by scripture (the Old Testament). 

I’m saying that there is use and abuse of scripture and Jesus was able to guard against abuse of scripture.  Oppression of people by Christians comes mainly from a FORMAL ACKNOWLEDGMENT of biblical authority.  Simply recognizing the Bible as the measuring line.  It is our SYMBOL.  We give lip-service to authority.  SUBSTANTIAL ACKNOWLEDGMENT of authority is when the scriptures are ACTUALLY lived out.  The Bible isn’t merely talked about (preached) or heard (read).  THIS is when the scriptures ARE authoritative (for all practical purposes).

I’m saying that when we want to guard against abuse?  We can follow Christ’s example by testing some of our interpretations against more explicit portions of scripture i.e. if there is not clarity on the Genesis narrative, our clue may not be there but in clearer texts, i.e. Jesus’ spiel on divorce.

I’m saying that though Jesus was independent, creative and fresh interpretively, he assumed the authority of the Old Testament Law without question.

I’m saying that the way authority works is that it doesn’t look sooooo authoritarian.  Something someone MUST SIMPLY COMPLY with.  scripture is more “democratic” than that.  scripture reflects God’s character in that there is no “canon of authority” (there is something to be said about an open canon here, but that is another question).  scripture is not concerned with authority LIKE WE ARE.

I’m saying that (and this is a BIG ONE for me) even though Jesus had both intrinsic and extrinsic authority?  He COMPELLED and URGED people to follow him and his word by using logic and reason to think things out for themselves.  There was no coercion.  There was no laying down of the law—“You do this just because” as noted above in your question.  This can also be seen in the Old Testament.  Jesus invites us by saying, “Here is how I see it, what do you think?”  As we freely appropriate his teachings (after we have thought them through) we substantially acknowledge Christ’s authority over against our lives.  (What does this say for our present discussion on homosexuality?  There may be no easy or “correct answers” and there is NO MERE COMPLIANCE SIMPLY BECAUSE, but if it turns out that the Church has been and is FAITHFUL to the scriptures (not necessarily having the “correct” interpretation), then how would authority be worked out both corporately and individually on this issue?) 

I’m saying that Paul’s authority is a SHARED AUTHORITY and does not come FROM HIM i.e. is not intrinsic to him.  The only time it is not shared is when Paul has to bring correction to churches in which case he has to bring authority OVER THEM.  It is no longer EQUAL authority.

I’m saying that authority had to do more with behavior than proper belief.  Church history bears this out.

 

Capeche?  biggrin


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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