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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/7/2006 10:07 PM (GMT -6) |   | Yo, Tom,
Along with intuition, feelings, etc., you might want to include something on the common sense aspect of believing the Open View.
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/8/2006 9:32 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Tom: corporate and not just individual experience.
(o) - THAT's the part I wanted you to pick up on. :)
Tom: I like this POW, so long as you're thinking of wide appeal, cross culturally, etc. That it CAN be agreed on by all can only ever be established by its being WIDELY believed in.
(o) - The quote was from St. Vincent of Lerins, writing "as an aid to distinguish the true teachings of the Church from the confusions of heretics; his most memorable saying is that Christians must follow that Faith which has been believed "everywhere, always, and by all.""
Tom: I can't think of anything that IS in fact agreed on by all.
(o) - You ask an interesting question, what from OUR point of view would be "agreed" by all. We might be surprised that 40-60 years later, after Nicea, when the Nicene Creed was accepted by all that the signers claimed that it was EXACTLY the faith that they had been baptized into. WE would find that strange, with out notions of journalism. We know that from one end of the Mediteranian to the other many Bishops had their own traditions. But they couls SAY that the Nicene faith was EXACTLY the same faith that they held, and into which THEY THEMSELVES had been baptized, AND BY WHICH they also always baptized.
That reflected upon, I nominate the Nicene-Constantinoplean Creed.
We can, then, Tom, invert your queery, and ask what does NOT agree. Arianism is one example. Jahovah's Witnesses. Then there are Mormons, Christadelphians...
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/8/2006 9:35:06 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/8/2006 10:16 AM (GMT -6) | | St. Vincent: Christians must follow that Faith which has been believed "everywhere, always, and by all"
Tom: If we're talking about very (VERY) broad and fundamental issues of faith (trinity, incaration, salvation by faith through Christ), then I'd like to agree. But I'd disagree that we can only EVER believe in something (something relative to faith, doctrine) that has only previously been believed in everywhere by all. I don't think there are any guarantees (divine or otherwise) that ALL that is true and knowable about God has always everywhere been believed by everybody. That's why I favored your saying "it CAN be believed by by all, everywhere," which is different that "has been believed always, by all, everywhere."
Tom
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/8/2006 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Some things fall into the realm called dogma -- things one must hold to. Other things into the realms of opinoins. And there area of opinions.
The PRACTICAL part of that is to use it as a tool of thought to see how what is "opined" necessarily fits or not fits with what is necessarily dogma.
After using that tool, lots else really is opinion.
(o)
TGB said...St. Vincent: Christians must follow that Faith which has been believed "everywhere, always, and by all" Tom: If we're talking about very (VERY) broad and fundamental issues of faith (trinity, incaration, salvation by faith through Christ), then I'd like to agree. But I'd disagree that we can only EVER believe in something (something relative to faith, doctrine) that has only previously been believed in everywhere by all. I don't think there are any guarantees (divine or otherwise) that ALL that is true and knowable about God has always everywhere been believed by everybody. That's why I favored your saying "it CAN be believed by by all, everywhere," which is different that "has been believed always, by all, everywhere." Tom
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/8/2006 12:40:15 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 7/13/2006 12:18 AM (GMT -6) | | | Tom, I'm not quite sure what you're looking for here... are you looking mostly for the practical implications of the OT worldview on our lives vis-a-vis other worldviews like Molinism, Calvinism, etc.? If so, here are some other ideas (if I'm not getting it, just ignore the rest)
1. Our underlying ideas of cause and effect are changed. For example, when we change from the single-line model to a branching model that consists of real M/MN possibilities, cause and effect aren't as clear (particularly when free agents are involved in the picture). When the M/MN is eliminated from the picture, we acknowledge that the freedom of the will plays a much stronger role. Thus the correlation between causes and effects is recognized to be a bit weaker, because the M/MN seems to be heavily dependent upon the free agent. The nature/nurture debate thrives under the single-line model: once we find just the right combination of influences that cause a person to do X, we then have the "power" to make X thrive or disappear.
2. Related to #1, the sense of personal responsibility is stronger.
3. Our perception of God and spiritual warfare is changed.
Is this somewhat on the right track for what you're looking for?
[As Bill and Ted approach Socrates]: Bill: "Yo Ted, say something profound, dude."
Ted: "Oh, yeah. Right. All we are...is dust in the wind dude."
Bill: ..."Dust".... "Wind" ... "Duuuude".
Socrates: (gasping in awe) "Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives." | | Back to Top | | |
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