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One Love
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| Posted 8/7/2006 9:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/7/2006 9:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo...
This Scarborough person....sheesh!
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/7/2006 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Thanks for the link.
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 8/7/2006 9:53:52 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/8/2006 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | | Good for Greg! I completely agree with him - 100%!!!
How about you Mephi? Are you aligned with Greg's presentation on the radio program???
curious,
T
Did I say 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geez. I feel like I can BREATHE now that someone is saying this stuff outloud!!!
Good for Greg! Bravo!
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love." ~ Soren Kierkegaard Post Edited (selah) : 8/8/2006 8:43:33 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/8/2006 9:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Not in Texas yet...
Selah:
Good for Greg! I completely agree with him - 100%!!!
How about you Mephi? Are you aligned with Greg on this one???
It will probably be easier for me to talk about where I DISAGREE with him. Simply because I agree with a overwhelming majority of what Doc's saying.
I patently disagree with his idea that Jesus' praxeology is to be "mimicked" to the point that Doc thinks. Doc works from this perspective...and in so doing, he (IMHO) oversimplifies the issue to a frustrating degree. Moreover, he's practically inconsistent BECAUSE of his oversimplification. (As Paul actually called him on in the Myth Q&A) It's one thing to talk about the general dimensions of Kingdom life...and to use the life of Jesus in exploring those dimensions. It's something completely different to try to argue that we should do NOTHING MORE OR LESS (Doc's actual words) than what we see Jesus doing. When he does this, I believe that he implicitly EXCLUDES some potential for kingdom impact.
Perfect example. If you notice on the NPR segment, the ONLY participation in the political process that Doc seemed to talk about a citizen "giving your opinion" on some the issues through various means. But he NEVER talked about whether or not people WITHIN the political process can exert Kingdom influence. And there's a simple reason for that. Doc really doesn't believe that Christians who want to live in Kingdom reality 24 hours a day should be involved in positions that set political policy OR the administrate that policy. The same reason that Doc doesn't see how a Christian can place themselves in a position where they may be ordered to kill another person (ie. the military OR the police) is actually the same reason IN PRINCIPLE why Doc wouldn't go for Kingdom people being mayors, police commissioners, senators, or presidents. Sure, Doc is saying that he's just raising questions along this line...and yes, he is. But it's not very hard to see the handwriting on the wall at all. Now, there are TONS of implications to this kind of thinking that I've brought up to him time and again. He even brought them up himself in the book in a note...
Myth of a Christian Nation, page 205. Note #4.
It should be noted that there are a number of issues we could raise at this point but that would take us outside of the parameters of this book. For example, what of a Christian serving in a capacity where they might have to order a killing but not personally carry it out directly? [Meph's note: mayors, presidents, etc] What of Christians serving in a capacity where they make or supply the weapons that kill people? [Meph's note: this could be from working in a weapons factory...on in any corporation that supplies materials that MAKE weapons] Indeed, what of Christians who pay taxes that fund the military that kills people? These are important questions, but I will have accomplished what I intended to accomplish with this book if I can simply help American kingdom-of-God people see the urgent need to begin asking these questions. The central problem with the American church today, I believe, is not that we haven't agreed on an answer to these ambiguous questions. Rather, it's that we are so steeped in nationalistic idolatry that we don't even think of seriously asking such questions in the first place!
I think I know Doc's view a little bit. We've talked. Frankly, I've spent a significant amount of my time since 2000 trying to understand Doc's theological perspectives. All that taken into account, I'd bet my whole paycheck that if you put a gun to Doc's head, he would lean HEAVILY towards Christians opting out of ANY seat or position of power where they may be called upon to do "power over" things that may lead to the oppression and/or deaths of people. This is WHY is is so sympathetic to separatism! But what does this mean for Kingdom potential WITHIN those seats of power? Are these opportunities to be dismissed in such a way? Moreover, does this mean that God WOULD NOT call a Kingdom person to be in a political seat of power? I mean wouldn't this be a legitimate implication of Doc's ideas? Why would God call a Kingdom person to do something supposedly fundamentally not "Kingdom"?? Actually, would God call a Kingdom person to be a CHAPLAIN in a military company? (I was actually considering being an Army chaplain when I was in seminary) Some people DO feel called to this. But would God REALLY call a Kingdom person to be part of a war machine effort???
Of course, he would never say that his perspective is binding upon anyone else. But being the charismatic, biblically-studied, internationally-sought preacher person he is...we KNOW that Doc's opinion has lots of sway BECAUSE it's Doc's opinion. Particularly at WHC. Now, let's do the math. In our globalized, interrelated society...where we have a SIGNIFICANT amount of participation in oppressive and/or death-dealing systems...to hold CONSISTENTLY to Greg's view...you'd have to functionally OPT OUT a lot more that Doc says that you do. (Suprisingly, even PAUL EDDY called this out in the Myth Q&A that was held at WHC!)
And ALL OF THIS comes from Doc's view about "mimicking" what Jesus did praxeologically...no more no less!
He could EASILY make his point of keeping the Kingdom separate...without falling into such a morass. Again...
The Kernal of Truth: Living life with Jesus (and the Kingdom he embodies) as the SOLE source of worth and identity will impact HOW one lives in the world. Anytime we get some of our identity from the PARTICULAR WAYS in which our christocentric lives are expressed, we are almost certainly headed for idolatry and/or sinful judgment of people. Because of this, with respect to our CORPORATE AND INDIVIDUAL IDENTITIES, we must be careful to SEPARATE the Kingdom of God from the various forms that potential interactions of Kingdom people and fallen human structures may take. Moreover, we need to deal with the LARGE AMBIGUITY (and corresponding grace) that this will entail...and be willing to ask ourselves the hard questions concerning our interaction with fallen human structures SOLELY from the perspective of fundamentally aligning one's identity with Christ.
Doc's Contextual Husk: The various forms that potential interactions of Kingdom people and fallen human structures ABSOLUTELY MUST look just like how Jesus operated praxeologically, which ends up conveniently looking Anabaptist...non-violent, apolitical, etc.
My 3c.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 8/8/2006 9:48:03 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/8/2006 9:33 AM (GMT -6) | | If you don't agree with what I've said above...PLEASE pick up your copy of "Myth of a Christian Nation" and read Chap. 9: Christians and Violence. Particularly where he speaks of Christians being in the military...AND...the validity (or lack thereof) of freeing oppressed people by force. Also notice how he talks about how we should concern ourselves with FAITHFULNESS rather than "carnal EFFECTIVENESS"
Then let's talk.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/8/2006 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Thanks for your 3c Mephi. I appreciate it. I'll read chapter nine today and get back to you.
Something interesting I noticed while listening to the NPR program: for some reason, whenever I listen to Greg I'm constantly trying to sort by difference. I try to find where he is off, wrong and missing on this or that point. I may not share what I find (especially with those who chronically find that stuff -- not mentioning any names :)). But I do find areas of disagreement...seems like continually. This time, however, I think I was careful to attend to every word on the radio program... and I just don't disagree at all. My conclusion: this is surely my own stuff. It's MY orientation. In fact, I probably would have taken it further!
I hear what you're saying too. I just don't understand it as well or see it as more important than what Greg is primarily trying to say/do.
blessings,
selah
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One Love
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| Posted 8/8/2006 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
Something interesting I noticed while listening to the NPR program: for some reason, whenever I listen to Greg I'm constantly trying to sort by difference. I try to find where he is off, wrong and missing on this or that point. I may not share what I find (especially with those who chronically find that stuff -- not mentioning any names  ). But I do find areas of disagreement...seems like continually. This time, however, I think I was careful to attend to every word on the radio program... and I just don't disagree at all. My conclusion: this is surely my own stuff. It's MY orientation. In fact, I probably would have taken it further!
I hear what you're saying too. I just don't understand it as well or see it as more important than what Greg is primarily trying to say/do.
What Doc is primarily trying to do, as I understand it, is to get people to understand that the essence of what the Kingdom IS looks like Jesus, and as such, it is RADICALLY DIFFERENT than any other worldly way of thinking we have, political or otherwise. I'm all with that...as are you. My issue is that Doc is pushing the point too much when he says that OUR way of doing things should MIMIC Jesus' way of doing things where we do NO MORE or LESS than what Jesus did, with respect to political or social issues. Ironically, this begins to do EXACTLY what Doc says shouldn't be done: taking a particular way that christocentric living may be expressed (ie completely pacifistic and apolitical in means, etc) and identifying THAT particular way with the Kingdom and calling THAT way the "Kingdom" way!
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/8/2006 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Then somebody help me wear this. I'm not getting how to "do" this pacifism thing. If there were somebody seriously threatening my kids, I'm gonna mess 'em up to the best of my ability, to the extent necessary to keep my kids safe. And I don't feel too bad about that. The alternative is incomprehensible to me.
I can't type it all out, but the Doc's response to this is in Chapter 9: Christians and Violence, question 1: What about Self-Defense. The most helpful sections come near the end of that part.
Basically, Doc says that he believes that Jesus would ALWAYS choose non-violence, even at risk of his loved ones being killed or seriously hurt. Doc admits that he is not there yet personally...BUT he would say that the "kingdom" way would ALWAYS be non-violent. This is NOT saying that Jesus would be INACTIVE. He believe that Jesus would do something, even to the point of giving his own life for his beloved. What this is saying is that, if the ONLY OPTIONS open to Jesus included the violent subduing of the enemy, he wouldn't do it.
Check it out for yourself.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/8/2006 10:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | correction:
when I said "In fact, I probably would have taken it further!"
I SHOULD have added: "and messed it up!"
I didn't mean it would have been a good thing to go further.
ok, back to chapter nine,
selah | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/8/2006 10:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh...
From my perspective...
The alternative to saying that all Kingdom activity MUST be non-violent is this:
A Kingdom person may be in AGONIZED PARTICIPATION in fallen systems to various degrees. This participation should NEVER be taken lightly and always has costs involved. No objectification occurs with this! Moreover, this participation should be undergirded by a CONSTANT listening to the Spirit.
This MAY ENTAIL a Kingdom person participating in SOME forms of coercion and/or violence.
This is a big difference between Doc and me.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/8/2006 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't have the book in front of me but I remember Boyd dealing with this kind of issue in a more nuanced approach. Too often we present examples with a limited number of options.
Do I let the intruder harm my wife and kids or do I blow them away?
Boyd, if I remember correctly, says something like, try to overwhelm them with force but not harm them. (and call the Kingdom of the World police ;@)
Too often we limit God to just a few, uncreative, choices.
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 8/8/2006 11:33:50 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/8/2006 1:54 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hmmm… children or intruder, children or intruder, children or intruder…. WWJD?
Come on intruder...make my day!
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/8/2006 2:59 PM (GMT -6) | |
selah said...
I think I was careful to attend to every word on the radio program... and I just don't disagree at all.
Hi Selah,
I confess I’m no theologian by any stretch, nor have I read Greg’s new book, but I have listened to all six sermons at least once. So after listing to this interview, I hear Greg say that Jesus never would fall into the trap of giving his political opinion. Then Greg continues on and says the political right should use this lesson taught by Jesus as an example of how to behave like Kingdom people. Then later on in the interview, Greg contradicts himself and says people should speak out for good causes, vote and voice their political opinion. I’m confused, which is it?
Greg certainly gave his opinion on keeping abortion legalized not long after the C&S series when interviewed by KKMS 980 radio.
Six divisive and political sermons and then a book ….hmmm… WWJD?
Thanks,
Mark
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 8/8/2006 3:18:32 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/8/2006 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | | Take this for what it's worth. You be the judge.
For those of you who may have thought that my understanding of Doc was off. Especially when talking about how a HUGE AMOUNT of his thinking on this issue lies with us trying to "mimic" Jesus' praxeology. The following is a one page summary that Doc wrote up for the WHC congregation to have. We have HUNDREDS of copies for people to pick up. It's PUBLIC stuff! All italics Docs. All bolded and underlined stuff is my emphasis.
--------------------------------------------------
There’s Room in the Kingdom for YOU
(whatever political position you hold)
The apostle Paul tells us we are to be “imitators of God” (Eph. 5:1). The word “imitate” in Greek literally means “to mimic.” As followers of Jesus, we are to do exactly what we see God doing: nothing more and nothing less. Paul then spells out what this “mimicking” looks like when he goes on to say, “Live in love, as Christ loved you and gave his life for you” (Eph. 5.2). So, we imitate God when we imitate Jesus, and we imitate Jesus when we love people the way Jesus loved us. More specifically, we imitate Jesus when we sacrifice for others, the way Jesus sacrificed himself for us on Calvary.
This is the kingdom of God (literally, the dome in which God is King). Where God reigns, it always looks like Jesus. This is why the Church is called “the body of Christ” in the New Testament (Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 12:12-13). We the people of God are to do exactly what Jesus did in his earthly body. He showed his love for all people by sacrificing for them. We are to show God’s love for all people by sacrificing for them. This is what the Christian faith is all about.
It really is that simple.
Sadly, many today have made Christianity out to be about many other things. Some people claim if you’re “really” a Christian, you’ll “of course” vote a certain way, support a certain candidate, take a particular stand on a particular issue, etc. This is unfortunate because most political issues are ambiguous enough that sincere, intelligent and Bible-believing people can and do strongly disagree about them.
Interestingly enough, neither Jesus nor any of his disciples ever thought like this. In fact, nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus or any of his followers “weigh in” on any of the many divisive political issues of their day. This doesn’t mean they didn’t have political opinions. They did – and they were very different from each other. Matthew (a Tax Collector) and Simon (a Zealot) were much farther apart in their views about political issues than (say) a Liberal Democrat and a Conservative Republican would be today. Yet, we never read a word about which view was “better” in the Gospels. And the reason is that their widely different political views are insignificant next to the one thing they are called to do as followers of Jesus: express God’s love for others the sacrificial way God expressed his love for them.
So, if we’re thinking biblically about the kingdom of God, we have to conclude that it just doesn’t matter whether you’re a conservative “Matthew” or a liberal “Simon.” If you’re a follower of Jesus Christ, committed to building the Jesus-looking Kingdom by sacrificing for others, there’s room in the kingdom for you.
----------------------------------------------
From above, I hope you see why my disagreement with Doc is as serious. Doc is taken the "Jesus mimicry" thing way farther that what is theologically warranted and/or praxeologically helpful. And this idea has FAR reaching implications!
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 8/8/2006 4:01:55 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/8/2006 4:04 PM (GMT -6) | | |
I think all true followers of Christ would agree, it’s all about "love". Defining what love looks like in action is where the disagreements are found.
If everyone were to mimic Jesus (WWJD), well then humankind would quickly end, since Jesus practiced both celibacy and suicide…hmmm sound of crickets
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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Pentz
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Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 59
| Posted 8/8/2006 5:35 PM (GMT -6) | | I work security at Riverside Plaza,(the tall concrete multi-colored apt buildings on the west bank). Anyways, we are trained to only use the amount of force necessary to stop the person who is causing harm. Believe me there are a number of times I would love to kick some a**, but my job is to make them stop and then STOP, I cant then throw them around and around. I think this still keeps what Jesus commanded us to do in turning the other cheak. But, i can understand if someone feels like that is too much force.
My problem is the use of force when Rwanda or Bosnia is happening. My buddy at work is from Bosnia and during the Civil War he told me that the UN soldiers were told that if defending a women or a child would cause them any physical harm, then to do nothing. That makes me so pissed. this is where I am at a loss.
I hope this makes a litttle sense,
Nate | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/8/2006 6:13 PM (GMT -6) | |
jefscott said...I thought Zealots believed in using force against the Romans. If that's so, how could they have followed Christ and held to that position? If it's not so, what was the opinion of the Zealots?
Weren't the zealots also against paying taxes to Rome?
When pressed upon whether they should pay taxes (Matthew's position) or not pay taxes (Simon's position), Jesus said PAY THE TAX. Give Ceasar his money.
Looks like an opinion to me, regarding worldly issues.
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 8/8/2006 6:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph: The alternative to saying that all Kingdom activity MUST be non-violent is this:
A Kingdom person may be in AGONIZED PARTICIPATION in fallen systems to various degrees. This participation should NEVER be taken lightly and always has costs involved. No objectification occurs with this! Moreover, this participation should be undergirded by a CONSTANT listening to the Spirit.
This MAY ENTAIL a Kingdom person participating in SOME forms of coercion and/or violence.
-----------------------
VFG: You make a good point here. I agree.
Additionally, here are a few difficulties with this whole discussion that I see: sometimes we use exceptions to direct the general rule...eg what if someone is being raped, what if there is an attacker in your house, what if you saw someone who was about to press the button of a bomb, etc... these are all highly unlikely cases, and if we were confronted with these situations, most of us would resort to our gut instincts. Truth is, we have no idea how we really would act in a situation until actually confronted with the situation (remember the Milgram experiment). But making a blanket statement that Kingdom people must refrain from ANY form of violence at ALL times is nearly impossible to hold up. The best we can say is "do the best you can and choose the least violent option available".
Also, just curious... what do you all think of Augustine's "Just War" idea? Right, wrong? Over-used, under-used?
For my 2c, I think there are rare occasions where war is justified... for example, against Hitler.
[As Bill and Ted approach Socrates]:
Bill: "Yo Ted, say something profound, dude."
Ted: "Oh, yeah. Right. All we are...is dust in the wind dude."
Bill: ..."Dust".... "Wind" ... "Duuuude".
Socrates: (gasping in awe) "Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives." | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/8/2006 8:15 PM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
...after listing to this interview, I hear Greg say that Jesus never would fall into the trap of giving his political opinion.
selah: Is that exactly what he said?
spark: Then Greg continues on and says the political right should use this lesson taught by Jesus as an example of how to behave like Kingdom people. Then later on in the interview, Greg contradicts himself and says people should speak out for good causes, vote and voice their political opinion. I’m confused, which is it?
selah: As far as I know Greg has always believed that giving your political opinion is fine...even good. It's when we give our political opinions about specific issues and call it God's opinion that there's a problem. The problem is in mixing the two kingdoms.
spark: Greg certainly gave his opinion on keeping abortion legalized not long after the C&S series when interviewed by KKMS 980 radio.
selah: Is that exactly what he said? And, even if it was what he said, Greg would own it as HIS opinion.
anyway...
spark:Six divisive and political sermons and then a book ….hmmm… WWJD?
selah: Good question, WHAT would Jesus do? or better...what did Jesus do? Do you think people divided over his teachings??? Was everyone accepting and loving of his great wisdom? Come on Mark, I'm sure the brood of viper comment was a tad bit divisive....
In my opinion, Greg's message is beautiful, SPIRIT LED, much needed, and totally what Jesus would do! Plus, he did a nice job on the radio program! Beautiful beautiful beautiful b.e.a.u.t.i.f.u.l. I'm so proud of Dr. Boyd :)
ok, peace and joy,
selah
Post Edited (selah) : 8/8/2006 8:22:39 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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