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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 9/28/2006 4:09 PM (GMT -6) |   | Mark, my point is simply this stated in one question: do you believe that everything...EVERYTHING you believe about the Bible (doctrine, etc.) is 100% accurate? I can't imagine you would answer "yes" to this question. So is God lying or being deceptive to you if He doesn't show up at your door step to explain everything correctly? I mean, does God EVER leave any of us with the belief that what we believe is correct when it's not? Yes, He does. All the time. As a matter of fact, it is sometimes in pain and anguish that we come to find out that what we believed about God and His word was not correct.
All I'm trying to say, Mark, is that if (a big "if" at that) God has plans to reconcile the world to Himself, isn't it the least bit possible that He might not be willing to splash this across the universe with no qualifiers, that He might just want to leave doctrinal beliefs as they are (with regard to the idea of eternal torment, which most Christians teach)?
Scripture does seem to suggest that God will reconcile everything to Himself, but never in an unqualified context; there is always judgement or sin or repentence or justice or wrath or Jesus' life, death and resurrection, or holiness as the context for those "universalism" passages. There's always a context for it, and that's what God wanted. It'd be awfully foolish of God to just pass on the simple message to us like, "Ok, here's the deal: Christ died for everyone...ya'll can get into heaven now. See you then." Can you imagine the unbelievable evil ramifications of that? No thanks. It's enough to deal with sin as it currently runs in our world's veins.
The whole point of Meph's (and others') concept of universalism is to FIRST understand the heart of God - He who loves fully and would not want to see eternal harm come to anybody. If that is true, then it doesn't make the least bit of sense to hold to the teaching of eternal torment. It doesn't fit the bill, Mark. The only reason most Christians say it does is because they've never suffered in hell for ages upon ages upon ages until the sudden reality hits them that the punishment isn't even closely retributive of the sin. So Christians blurt out statements like "It's only just that God send someone to hell for ever because they rejected Christ." Statements like that are not well throught-out. We here are trying to "thought-out" this issue and trying to make sense of eternal torment. And...it doesn't make sense.
And so, as I said earlier, if God doesn't wish to make a Carte Blanch entry statement about everyone getting into heaven, which would create a far greater mess than people are already in now, then He's not going to come right out and say, "Everyone gets in if they wish. See you then." Instead, He will allow, as He has always done, the misconceptions about eternal torment to continue. And instead of worrying about that, God is more concerned about dealing with the reality of broken relationships and offering help to the broking hearted - stuff that makes for love and not hate, peace and not war, gentleness, patience, meekness and all the rest of the fruits of the Spirit.
People worshiping God and living in a world where something about the love and glory of God is expressed to the world is, apparently, just as important to God as universal reconciliation. It is also very important to God that mankind never come to know about universal reconcilation without first knowing Who made it possible. And to know Him is to know the ugliness of sin in one's own life that should cause that person to repent. Then and then only does universal reconciliation become clear to that believer.
I sure hope this clears up things, Mark, because the last thing any of us are saying is, "You know, I just don't like the idea of eternal torment, so I think I'm just going to be a unversalist." That's pure foolishness, and that isn't what we are doing here as we discuss this issue. We are trying to work through and make sense of a very delicate subject.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/28/2006 6:10 PM (GMT -6) | |
Starkman said...
Mark, my point is simply this stated in one question: do you believe that everything...EVERYTHING you believe about the Bible (doctrine, etc.) is 100% accurate?
Relative 2 What?
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/29/2006 8:52 PM (GMT -6) | | The answer is a question.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/29/2006 10:14 PM (GMT -6) | | |
He brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven and count the stars, if you are able to count them."
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/29/2006 10:29 PM (GMT -6) | | |
I like the word "conspicuous", when used in the right light.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/30/2006 12:44 AM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...
Hey, if you can't hope it, don't. If you can, do. Whatever the truth of the matter is, we'll find out.
Universalism is a dead man’s theology. Hope is for the living, for those in Heaven there is no hope.
You’re right about one thing, though...
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/30/2006 1:52:40 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 9/30/2006 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | | Mark: Are you not safe from your big brother’s beatings when your father is home?
Jeff:: I assume you're agreeing with me, then, that the restrainer is the holy spirit. But if God knows the "big brother" is going to beat you when He leaves "home" (i.e., ceases to restrain), and ceases to restrain anyway, how is this any different than Job--literal or not? That's all I'm asking. HOW is Job more theologically problematic than Christ or Paul? Or for that matter the killing of the first-born in Egypt or the killing of children in the Conquest?
It seems to me that all of these kinds of things can only be accounted for by assuming that they have just what scripture says they have--a REVELATORY effect upon volitional creatures that in some way contributes to a greater good of a sort. That greater good could be for Christ (for his greater glory, e.g.) and/or creatures. How do you explain them, otherwise?
Post Edited (jefscott) : 9/30/2006 9:53:20 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/30/2006 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/30/2006 12:23 PM (GMT -6) | |
jefscott said...
What's the question that it's the answer to?
The ultimate answer is posed as a question.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/30/2006 12:36:34 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/30/2006 12:42 PM (GMT -6) | | “The more you know, the more you know you don’t know”. – Aristotle
Reiterated by Dr. Gregory A. Boyd September 17th, 2004 at Evangelical Education Ministries’ “Is God to Blame” Conference.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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