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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 9/15/2006 8:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | With regard to blaspheming the Spirit...
We don't even know what that sin is! That's because there isn't one particular sin in mind. Now thinking about that, the over all context for salvation is that no one gets eternal life without bowing before God and accepting His Great Gift. I wonder, then, if Jesus' declaration about the unpardonable sin (with temporality, and this conversation, in mind) is just another way of saying, "You will never be forgiven for not believing in Me." That would, in fact, be an eternal state...if someone were to forever not believe in Jesus. But, it SHOULD be argued that God has no intentions of leaving anyone in that state; HE will do everything necessary to bring that person to their senses. It may take a long time for many people (remember our the threads on post-mortem conversion?), but sooner or later, everyone will come around in their own time. They will see that God truly is love, that He truly is life, and that life is found nowhere else.
If this is the case, Jesus was not saying, "If you commit the unpardonable sin, you're doomed forever. Sorry, bud. No hope for you." Rather, He was saying, "You are forever exluded from Life if you stay in rebellion against God." It's the same thing He told the Jews: "You will die in your sins if you believe not that I am He" (Jn 8:24). It doesn't make sense at all to doom some Jew to eternal banishment simply because He wouldn't believe in Jesus. Maybe the guy was struggling. Maybe it all just didn't make sense at the time. And so the fellow drops dead a week later from a heart attack and off to hell forever he goes? That does not jibe.
I think there's room to consider statements and declarations about Jesus' "eternal" pronouncements of doom in a broader context, particularly when we look at the contextually bigger picture of salvation.
NOTE: The LFW issue bothered me about this for a while, but I figure that if I can understand LFW in the environment God gave it (ala Adam and Eve who were quite restricted with regard to LFW), then I can see that LFW was never meant to be a weapon toward eternal destruction. The blade only swings one way, but it may be a slow-swinging blade. Sooner or later, everyone will be given the place to "see" truth...the truth. It would seem, then, that sooner or later everyone will be able to clearly analyze the stupity of staying rebellious. Finally, sooner or later, everyone's heart will be brought into a place (through time because of LFW) that is made able to love.
Finally, I have to say, as even Meph has said, that there's serious "Biblical" evidence to support everlasting banishment (punishment included, perhaps), and this doesn't make for an easy digestion Universalism. But from a simple, common-sense and anaylitical perspective, it does NOT make any sense, AT ALL, that a God who is all-loving--who IS love--would even consider the thought of creating people only to have trillions of them perish in the traditionally excepted manner: eternal torment. How can we even think that God would create people when He had to know that a huge majority of them would have only one destiny, all in the name of freewill? Nothing God could do about it...His hands are tied. Sorry. Oh, but for the few (and I do mean few) of you who believe, hey, come on in and enjoy the party.
I don't think so.
At any rate...
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/15/2006 8:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
But here my P-ness really kicks in and I simply say, ala Whitehead, that I don't know what possible reasons there might be out there. All I know is that I can't say there AREN'T possible reasons; THERE COULD BE POSSIBLE REASONS, even if I can't think of them right now.
Hmmmm...
Ok, then. Let's say this.
Given the possibilities, and given all we are talking about here...
do you feel like it would be rational for someone to say that, considering everything, it's VERY, VERY, VERY PROBABLE that God actually HAS created angels such that, if they fall into despair, they can have their despair removed?
Could a rational person believe this...WITHOUT eliminating the possibility of some long lost reason existing about why God wouldn't do this?
Kinda like how we know it's possible that all of the matter in my chair COULD spontaneously materialize in the midst of Alpha Centauri...but we can admit that it's VERY, VERY, VERY probable that this won't happen.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/15/2006 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
My intuitions that hold me back from this are still along the lines I was pursuing before: I think humans were uniquely created for a love relationship with God, and I think it's more likely that love potential is the basis for pursuing reconcilation than glory potential.
We're movin'...this is great!
Ok. You can think that humans were uniquely created for love relationship with God...such that NO OTHER BEINGS can "love" God intimately. That's fine. But there is still the matter of DESPAIR. Obviously, God doesn't mind having angels worshipping him...in this temporal sphere OR in the Consummation. This is what it looks like for angelic beings to be without despair. They KNOW why they were created and they do that. And they find SATISFACTION in being who God has created them to be. And THIS glorifies God!
It doesn't abridge your intuitions about the UNIQUENESS of the God/human relationship...to say that God wants to remove ALL despair from all personal beings...that he may be glorified...as all personal beings are SATISFIED in God.
See what I'm saying?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/15/2006 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Actually, I thank you very much for this, Corey. I believe that this was God-lead.
I was going up against the very understandable intuition that their is a UNIQUE relationship between God and human beings...and that this UNIQUENESS has something to do with the relational dynamic of love. It's very helpful to some people to make some important distinctions.
Being in an intimate, mutually-influential love relationship is DISTINCT from being released from the bondage of despair. Humans can experience BOTH...while it's possible that angels can ONLY experience the latter. Universal reconciliation fundamentally deals with the removal of despair. (Humans just have a "bonus" because of being created in the Image of God) When despair is removed from human beings, they are able to enter into the love relationship with God that their inner soul crys out for. Angels enter into the HONORIFIC relationship with God that THEIR inner being crys out for.
I'll BET this fixes things for you, Corey
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/15/2006 9:38:36 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/15/2006 9:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo, Selah.
I think I get it now.
I bet it bothered you to think that Satan, an angel, could have the same LOVING INTIMACY with God as you do right now...when he doesn't even (we suppose) have the Image of God. And the idea of Satan enjoying THAT loving intimacy with God FOREVER did not sit well with you. Not necessarily because Satan's so evil...but because the human/divine relationship, I think you're intuitions told you, is NOT that same as the angel/divine relationship when it comes to loving intimate relationship with God. There is a UNIQUE love relationship that ONLY human beings have with God.
So...
When I would say "God loves Satan", it was the LOVING INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP that you've experienced that you framed the statement in terms of...
and you just couldn't get with that. You couldn't see God trying to be INTIMATELY RELATED to Satan.
Am I right?
I bet that I am.
Well, if so, take this in...I'll say it again...just for you...
Being in an intimate, mutually-influential love relationship is DISTINCT from being released from the bondage of despair. Humans can experience BOTH...while it's possible that angels can ONLY experience the latter. Universal reconciliation fundamentally deals with the removal of despair. (Humans just have a "bonus" because of being created in the Image of God) When despair is removed from human beings, they are able to enter into the love relationship with God that their inner soul crys out for. Angels enter into the HONORIFIC relationship with God that THEIR inner being crys out for.
I'm willing to say that it's possible that Satan will NEVER have the SAME TYPE of despair-free existence with God that human beings will. Yes, he will be reconcilied, but he will NEVER be able to say, from his heart, ABBA FATHER, like we will...having the intimate, loving relationship like we do.
Romans 8:14-16
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
How's that?
Can we all just be universalists NOW????
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/15/2006 10:27:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/15/2006 9:31 AM (GMT -6) | | This is I believe THE critical concession point!
Some people may want to believe that angels actually DO have the capacity to enter loving, intimate relationality with God.
Other people may want to believe that angels actually DO NOT have the capacity to enter loving, intimate relationality with God.
But BOTH GROUPS can agree that God's glorification (and the well-being of Creation) is maximized as God creates Creation such that any despairing personal being CAN have their despair removed! There is no 100% solidification into despair. Thus opening up the way for eventual universal reconciliation.
BOTH GROUPS can differ as to the EMOTIONAL SUBSTANCE of angelic reconciliation, but mutually agree that it DOES occur.
YES!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/15/2006 9:34:38 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/15/2006 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Revelation 4:1-11
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
" 'Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,'
who was, and is, and is to come."
Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
and...
Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."
All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will spread his tent over them.
'Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,'
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center before the throne
will be their shepherd;
'he will lead them to springs of living water.'
'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.' "
Man, I'm crying again...praise God...
All is full of God's love and glory.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/15/2006 10:03:57 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/15/2006 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | |
Eenie...meenie...miney...moe...
E.C.T. is runnin' out the do'
I KNOOOOW you see it...
I KNOOOOW you see it...
Bim...bam...boys...gurls...
God done gone and saved da whole world
I KNOOOOW you see it...
I KNOOOOW you see it...
This is so much fun... | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/16/2006 9:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Good stuff. I love the excitement over the beauty you're finding in scripture! Here's some more that's coming to mind: "How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!"
In teleological relation to God, humans are filial and Angels are servile. An important aspect of the gospel is our adoption as sons; this is not made available to angels. I want to consider this distinction further. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/16/2006 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
In teleological relation to God, humans are filial and Angels are servile. An important aspect of the gospel is our adoption as sons; this is not made available to angels. I want to consider this distinction further.
Just wondering. Is there something that considering this distinction can contribute to the viability of universal reconciliation? I'm not saying this isn't something great to talk about. I'm just wondering if you are seeing something in this distinction that may render eventual universal reconciliation a non-starter.
From my perspective, if the Kingdom of God is cosmological in scope, and not just anthropocentric (which the Christus Victor motif would say)...then we are talking about reconciliation in global terms. Things that have been skewed will be set right. This would include the self-relationships (and interpersonal relationships that emerge from those understandings) of all personal beings. The removal of Kierkegaardian despair, as it were.
If you are right, Corey, this removal of despair would look distinct between humans and angels...insofar as humans are created to end up with filial relationships with God...and angels are created to end up with honorific relationships with God. And both of these glorify God because both classes of personal beings are living up to what they were created for. And both sets of beings would find SATISFACTION in being what they were created to be...given God glory for how they were created. To have all human and angelic beings end up this way would insure that God's glory is maximized, given all of the parameters of God's self-limitations.
So...
I'm thinking through if noting this distinction makes it any more plausible that God would NOT reconcile angelic beings when God would supposedly have motive, ability, and desire to do so. I'm not seeing it.
Do you see a possibility? If so, could you state it?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/16/2006 9:32:25 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/16/2006 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Okay... here's the soup-bone I sense is stewing in the bottom of my kettle: I wonder if P1 is actually the case.
P1. God will not pass up any opportunity for glory
I still intuit that God is far more motivated by love than by glory. Maybe these two are so closely intertwined as to be a distinction without a difference, but when added to the servile/filial language, I think we see it become more prominently noticable. "For God so LOVED the world..." all that. He was primarily after love, not glory. Further, it seems that God is willing to forego his glory for the sake of love. Insert all the kenotic stuff here. In any event, it historically seems to be the case that we have precedence that God has in fact passed up various opportunities for glory.
But I definitely would affirm:
P1. God will not pass up any opportunity for LOVE. Post Edited (Corey) : 9/16/2006 8:45:54 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/16/2006 10:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Let's get some clarity.
It seems that you are trying to separating love and glory. With God, that's not possible. God's glory is inextricably linked to demonstration of who God is. And God IS love. This is why everything God DOES demonstrates God's glory in some respect. All of Creation and the creative event itself show God's glory.
God gets EXTRA glory from personal beings because only personal beings can 1) recognize God's glory being demonstrated and 2) center their personal existences about who God is. This is why the despair language is so appropriate. Only spiritual beings can relate to themselves in their relation...which leads to the possibility of emotional/psychical understanding of one's state before God. Rocks and animals can't do this. Only a personal being can do this.
So...
When we are talking about God wanting glory, we are not just talking about number of objects God creates...even though that does give God glory. We are talking about God wanting personal beings to UNDERSTAND and KNOW who God is and who they are in God. Even though angels may not have intimate loving relationships with God, they can STILL declare that God is a loving God as a matter of truth. They can still KNOW that God is love, though not on a subjective level like human beings.
I can see God wanting all personal beings to KNOW God as they can and orient themselves to what they know. And the MORE personal beings who do this, the better.
So, if this is the case, allowing for annihiliation of any personal beings when it's NOT a metaphysical, volitional, or logical necessity doesn't make any sense.
God's better off reconciling ALL person beings to himself to receive the maximal amount of glory (WHICH IS ineparable from love)
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/16/2006 10:37 AM (GMT -6) | | How's this:
P1' God will not pass up any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
P2' Angelic reconciliation is an activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
Thus...
C God will obtain angelic reconciliation.
---------------
I fell like I could argue pretty well how angelic reconciliation is an essential activity towards maximizing God's glory in Creation. I would use the same logic I used with Piper's dictum. Simply put, the more created personal beings who internalize who God is, orient their existences by that knowledge, and continue their existences in that state, the MORE God is glorified in Creation.
The rest falls into place.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/16/2006 11:07:52 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/17/2006 8:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey,
I'm evaluating the argument here.
P1' God will actualize any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
P2' Angelic reconciliation is an activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
C' God will actualize angelic reconciliation.
1) It seems that P1' is on solid ground. Particularly when we are factoring in the glorification principle (ie. that Creation is a loving gift to the Son from the Father, glory and love are correlative, etc. Re-read Jeff's statement on this the page before this one. ) We see in Scripture that God is all about declaring his glory...AND...we see that the Father and the Son take turns glorifying each other (Book of John).
Love grounds God's self-expression...which IS God's glory.
Creation is a loving gift from the Father to the Son.
This whole thing, Corey, is FOUNDED on love...because God IS love.
Your intuition remains intact.
So, for LOVING REASONS (love of the Son and love of Creation...which are intertwined), God will not pass up any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glorification in Creation.
2) If we can agree that God gets increased glory from sapient/sentient beings truly being who they are supposed to be and finding satisfaction in that (despair-free life) even though a despair-free existence may look different between humans (filial) and angels (servile)....then I think that P2' can be argued for pretty well. Having all created angels enter into a sustained, despair-free, satisfying servile existence would be an essential component of God increasing his glorification in Creation. Again, this is NOT pitting love against glory here for we can easily say that God is still accomplishing his telos of love through creatures whose despair-free existence includes intimate loving relationship.
3) Obviously, if one agrees with P1' and P2', then C' is a direct implication.
How would we be doing with this, Corey?
Selah?
Tom?
Brandon?
Have we reached a suitable level of elegance and nuance yet?
I'm REALLY, REALLY liking the development that's going on with this!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/17/2006 8:21:47 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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