 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > sustenance | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/17/2006 9:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Uncle! I give. It now seems most reasonable to me that God could and would obtain reconcilation with angels. If this isn't pitting love vs glory, my gut-level problems are removed. I still need to just live in this for a while to see if it fits. In Whitehead terms, I need to return to assemblage to see what else might play into this that we haven't considered yet. (I really think that guy was an INTP...)
One point of clarification I want to seek.
P1' God will actualize any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
Wouldn't ANY activity that brings God glory be essential? What exactly does the word essential contribute here? Is there 'non-essential' glory-contributing activity? It seems that by definition of 'maximal' that there would not be. | | Back to Top | | |
 |
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 9/17/2006 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey: One point of clarification I want to seek.
P1' God will actualize any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
Wouldn't ANY activity that brings God glory be essential? What exactly does the word essential contribute here? Is there 'non-essential' glory-contributing activity? It seems that by definition of 'maximal' that there would not be.
Jeff: Here's how I would explain it, Corey. I think there is a sense in which we could say that if God were to stop the project today, and thereby hurry up the reconciliation, that there would be more glory of a certain sort. I.e., there would be more holiness and worship, quantitatively, right now. But if God's longsuffering ultimately contributes to a greater glory for Christ, then extending the project in time, in that sense, maximizes glory in the continual quantitative sense--because there will be more persons to glorify Christ because of God's longsuffering. And God's sentient satisfaction is, consequently, increased by Christ's greater glorification.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/17/2006 10:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeffscott:
Here's how I would explain it, Corey. I think there is a sense in which we could say that if God were to stop the project today, and thereby hurry up the reconciliation, that there would be more glory of a certain sort. I.e., there would be more holiness and worship, quantitatively, right now. But if God's longsuffering ultimately contributes to a greater glory for Christ, then extending the project in time, in that sense, maximizes glory in the continual quantitative sense--because there will be more persons to glorify Christ because of God's longsuffering. And God's sentient satisfaction is, consequently, increased by Christ's greater glorification.
Brilliant!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 9/17/2006 11:21 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I'm beginning to get the feel for it, Meph! Like Corey, I have to gel with it a while once my mind sees the logic of it. But I'm getting a stronger feel for it little by little!!
And Corey, here's something I've thought about one possible distinction between humans and angels: Angels, by virtue of being spiritual, may not have a natural death that results from sin. We, however, by being flesh, naturally die from living out of harmony with the originally created order. Compare, e.g., the passage in Gen. where God numbers mens' days prior to the Flood because they are flesh. The fallen angels of that time, however, are not killed, but imprisoned. So maybe the reason why we see fallen angels seemingly being tormented for ages after the new heavens and earth is inaugurated is because they must reap the just consequences of many AGES of rebellion. Hence, their reconciliation is necessarily future to ours.
And maybe they don't require Chist's death for reconciliation since they, themselves, don't die. Maybe for them, only just recompense is sufficient to maintain the fidelity of the moral order--so long as after that judgment, God will bring loving enlightenment into their minds and hearts, too. Imagine the worshipful joy of such enlightened hearts! Especially when we see the fear in those spirits who told Jesus, "Art thou come to torment us before the time?" Just a thought.
Post Edited (jefscott) : 9/17/2006 1:58:22 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/17/2006 6:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph is smokin' and jammin' on the computer again...
Jefscott: (emphasis mine)
And maybe they don't require Chist's death for reconciliation since they, themselves, don't die. Maybe for them, only just recompense is sufficient to maintain the fidelity of the moral order--so long as after that judgment, God will bring loving enlightenment into their minds and hearts, too. Imagine the worshipful joy of such enlightened hearts! Especially when we see the fear in those spirits who told Jesus, "Art thou come to torment us before the time?" Just a thought.
Please see my other thread "On Christ's Sacrifice"
Let me say this VERY, VERY, plainly.
It is ONLY because of Christ's sacrifice (ie. the Son experiencing the total ramifications of existential despair) that ANY created personal being can be reconciled to God and themselves (ie. have existential despair removed)!
Universalism is based EXCLUSIVELY on the Sacrifice of Christ.
This is extremely important.
There is NO OTHER WAY that despairing beings can be reconciled to God.
Angels or humans.
See what I'm sayin?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/17/2006 6:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Good. This is NON-NEGOTIABLE for me!
My thoughts today have been about how this reconciliation actually plays out for fallen angels. There are a number of aspects of my angelogy that I need to work out with better clarity. I mean, I don't see anywhere in scripture where angels are being called to repent and place their faith in Christ. And it seems that hell was originally intended for Satan and his followers. It does seem that they have a solidification (perhaps not irreversable, but practically so) such that God knows it will take hell to break them. I don't see any precedent for angelic reconciliation pre-hell.
However it works out, in the end I must affirm that all reconciliation happens through the work of Christ. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 9/17/2006 7:34 PM (GMT -6) | | |
You may be right, Meph. But I've always wondered with Corey about the seeming uniqueness of humans. And I wondered if dying from sin is part of that uniqueness. It's still a bit complex for me on that matter. But I'm open either way at this point.
Sahid adheres to a view that says God can forgive apart from propitiation. At one level that sounds common-sensical, though very counter-scriptural. So I was just wondering if there's some thruth to it, at least, for angels--if, at least, they suffer the just consequences of their works. So much of scriptural language is about Christ's becoming in the likeness of man to fittingly redeem men that it made me wonder.
Meph: Meph is smokin' and jammin' on the computer again...
Jeff: I ordered my sampler pack today. It better be good!! It definitely SOUNDS good! BTW, I just woke up from dreaming about hearing Aretha Franklin sing "Spanish Harlem" on the radio. It sounded JUST like the radio play in my mind. Ya'll ever dream songs that clearly? I do every now and then--it's wild!
Post Edited (jefscott) : 9/17/2006 7:58:00 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/18/2006 7:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Jefscott:
I ordered my sampler pack today. It better be good!! It definitely SOUNDS good!
Hey, it feels good to me!  Everyone has different physiological makeups. It may effect different people in different ways. But I think you'll like it. It's a good alternative to a currently illegal, completely natural, herbal substance that shall go unnamed. (4:20) Heh. 
Ooooh. That boy is liberal!
***********************************
Corey,
I'm trusting that you understood what Jeff was saying earlier. God's willingness to extend the timelines of this creational project such that all despairing beings can come to have existential despair removed demonstrates God's lovingkindness in a way that would be distinct from what would occur if God were to just go the annihilationist route. One can say that God's demonstration of God's longsuffering lovingkindness DOES ENHANCE God's glorification, in that it demonstrates the loving characteristics of God to Creation. This is a biblical concept that is repeated over and over again, in Old and New Testaments.
Thus we can say that angelic reconciliation entails a process that is ESSENTIAL to the maximization of God's glorification in Creation, overall. God annihilating irrevocably despairing beings would contribute to God's glorification in Creation (as would any self-revealing act of God)...but it would NOT maximize God's glorification overall.
With all this in place, I think we can go with what we have...
P1' God will actualize any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
P2' Angelic reconciliation is an activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
C' God will actualize angelic reconciliation.
Looks like we're on the same page, Corey and Jeff.
Anyone else care to chime in?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/18/2006 8:26 AM (GMT -6) | | I want to go a few more rounds, as this will help me get a better sense of confidence about this opinion. In regards to pre-hell angelic reconcilation. If we are to be consistent, wouldn't the argument look like this:
P1' God will actualize any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
P2' PRE-HELL Angelic reconciliation is an activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
C' God will actualize PRE-HELL angelic reconciliation.
So, of course the question is P2. Why would we say that P2 is false? It would seem that such activity would indeed contribute to maximizing God's glory in creation. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/18/2006 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | What does this look like?
Let me paint a picture...
Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
Romans 14:10-12
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
So then, we will all give an account of ourselves to God.
and last, but DEFINITELY not least....
Philippians 2:5-11
In your relationships with one another, have the same attitude of mind Christ Jesus had:
Who, being in very nature [a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a human being,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Let's note some things with this last one.
1) That "under the earth" phrase has meaning. Remember the 3-tiered view of the universe. Heaven=Sky. Earth=Us. Under the Earth="Hell"
2) All tongues acknowledging Jesus as Lord to the glory of the Father. Could this not be God removing all despair from all sentient/sapient beings? Yep.
Yeah, buddy!
Remember the song...
One day every tongue will confess you are God...
One day every knee shall bow...
Still the greatest joy remains for those...
Who gladly choose you now!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/18/2006 8:39:24 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/18/2006 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
I want to go a few more rounds, as this will help me get a better sense of confidence about this opinion. In regards to pre-hell angelic reconcilation. If we are to be consistent, wouldn't the argument look like this:
P1' God will actualize any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
P2' PRE-HELL Angelic reconciliation is an activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
C' God will actualize PRE-HELL angelic reconciliation.
So, of course the question is P2. Why would we say that P2 is false? It would seem that such activity would indeed contribute to maximizing God's glory in creation.
If God has set a specific TIME of judgement, which biblical testimony seems to say, then the "rock-bottom" event associated with that judgement would ONLY take place at that time. Remember the steps of how it works? The closing of epistemic distance, which presents the occasion of the "rock-bottom" event?
We can easily say that God's sense of timing is ONE of the factors at play here. God has set the timing of judgement so that he gets the most glory from that. It is a reasonable inference from what we've said thus far.
Think of it this way: Even God's sense of timing for this whole thing is ESSENTIAL to maximizing God's glory in Creation. Unless we want to say that it was totally arbitrary or whatever, we have to say that there is some PURPOSE behind God's timing. And it makes sense that this purpose would be linked to God's glorification.
We are dealing with a KAIROS God.
That deals with your P2 issue, I think.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/18/2006 8:56:41 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/18/2006 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | | I just want to show the emerging elegance here.
Our model of eventual universal reconciliation is being shown to be based upon a solid Christology.
Please see my "On Christ's Sacrifice"
Christ circumscribes the theological framework from whence it originates. (Through Christ's work and teachings, we know that God is perfect, unconditional love.)
Creation is the Father's gift to the Son...and the Son will give the gift back to the Father. In this mutual glorification, God will maximize his aesthetic appreciation of God's self-displaying activity in God's contingent expression...that is, God's "glory" will be maximized in Creation. Love and Glory inseparable. (glorification principle)
Christ, in and of himself, solidly represents God's contingent expression of God's ad intra life...such that Christ is FULLY HUMAN and FULLY DIVINE. In this way, Christ truly embodies beautiful unity in diversity. The unity of God and humanity. Immanuel. (trinitarian process metaphysic)
Christ is the standard by which judgment occurs. Christ stands...a truly despair-free being. A being fully in the world but fully not in this world. Christ, a human being who rested in God and did what he saw his Father doing. Unlike Christ, we will have to answer for our lives of despair. We will have to account for ourselves. ( A lil' bit of SK terminology...which is perfectly consonant with the dispositional ontology in the trinitarian process metaphysic)
Christ frees Creation from it's despair. Christ stills the groaning. By enduring the pain of despair's icy grasp, Christ ensured that despair (sin) would NOT have to claim Creation. Only CHRIST could endure the ultimate depth of existential despair. Only a God who incarnated Godself into Creation could make this work. Because of Christ's endurance of the uttermost despair, no despairing sentient/sapient creature has to live eternally in that horrid state! We don't have to endure eternal conscious torment (which would be the closest we could get to the ultimate depth of existential despair) Through his incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension, we are free.
And God doesn't even have to be ANGRY AT others. Isn't that lovely?  So, for anyone thinks that this version of universalism doesn't take the particularity and work of Christ seriously...OR...the open view/warfare worldview seriously... ...you got another thing coming. (Laika...) The ONLY SOLID FOUNDATION of this model of eventual universal reconciliation is the loving, triune God revealed to us in Jesus.Sweet.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/18/2006 7:08:51 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/19/2006 12:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Let me ask the question this way...
Is there anyone reading this thread...particularly the "Christology" post before this one...who doesn't agree with how this is working out?
If so, why?
I'm looking for anything to shoot this down...so...
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/19/2006 12:38 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm having a freaky thought.
Heh.
Do you think that EVANGELICALS (even more conservative ones) would go for eventual universal reconciliation (universalism)...if it is shown that...
1) reconciliation of Creation is COMPLETELY and SOLELY ROOTED in the glorious person and work of Christ
and...
2) universal reconciliation does NOT eliminate any sense of moral autonomy or divine judgement?
Could this catch on in Evangelical circles??
Hmmm...
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/19/2006 9:30 PM (GMT -6) | |
Okay... My sense is that the 'ontological appeal' is weakest part of this argument. The classic ontological argument may (or may not) work in the narrow case of the greatest possible being, but I think it has more difficulty when that form of argument is used more generally.
P1 The "greatest" must obtain
P2 X is necessary to the "greatest"
C X obtains
Something still just doesn't feel right about this form. Trying to figure out what doesn't feel right, I started playing around with a converse form:
P1 The "greatest" must obtain
P2 X is incompatible with the "greatest"
P3 X will NOT obtain (from P1 and P2)
P4 But X has obtained
C P1 or P2 is false
It seems that much that has historically obtained does not serve to maximize God's glory. If we say that all that has obtained does indeed maximize God's glory, then we have to conclude, don't we, that every child rape and all other outrageous acts of evil maximize God's glory. Yuck. Post Edited (Corey) : 9/19/2006 11:10:45 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/20/2006 7:01 AM (GMT -6) | | How about this. This is wrong someway...but it's close to what needs to be said. Help me say this right...
P1 If there exists any genuinely possible divine activity without which God's glory in Creation cannot be maximal, then God will actualize that divine activity.
P2 Angelic reconciliation is a genuinely possible divine activity without which God's glory in Creation cannot be maximal.
C God will actualize angelic reconciliation.
You'd have to argue for P2. But I believe we can do that solidly...particularly with the glorification principle and the idea of sin as "despair"
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/20/2006 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | |
It seems we want something of this form:
P1. All B is A
P2. All C is B
C. All C is A
So lets try.
P1. All that is necessary to maximal divine glory will be actualized by God.
P2. Reconciliation of all fallen angels is necessary to maximal divine glory.
C. Reconciliation of all fallen angels will be actualized by God.
--------
I guess this is really not much different than the earlier form:
P1' God will actualize any activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
P2' Angelic reconciliation is an activity that is essential to maximizing God's glory in Creation.
C' God will actualize angelic reconciliation.
Maybe I'm chasing my tail. The form of this argument appears sound. Never mind...! 
Post Edited (Corey) : 9/20/2006 8:14:07 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/20/2006 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
| 279 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 8:48 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|