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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/12/2006 7:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | | My son would like to know what satan and demonic agents eat...or if they eat.
If they don't eat, what keeps them alive? If they are alive by God's provision/supernatural power...well, he thinks that's just weird. :)
I told him someone on the board would know.
(TGB! ;))
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/12/2006 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
My son would like to know what satan and demonic agents eat...or if they eat.
If they don't eat, what keeps them alive? If they are alive by God's provision/supernatural power...well, he thinks that's just weird. 
I told him someone on the board would know.
Hey, there.
Um, I know that you probably won't like this answer, but I think it's biblical.
I believe that God upholds EVERYTHING by his power. The power of the Word. (Jesus, Son of God, 2nd Person of the Trinity) Everything that exists. This is not the same thing as saying that God meticulously controls everything. This is to say that NOTHING continues to exist without the empowerment of God.
If you recall, one of the things that I said about this was that God's continuing sustenance of reality was a dimension of God's expressed LOVE to Creation. This was ONE of the reasons that I came to the idea that God loves even demons and Satan. Because God keeps them in existence.
If anyone can give any compelling biblical or theological reason NOT to believe that God sustains all things by his power (creatio continua)...that Creation actually has it's OWN sustaining power apart from God...I'd like to see it.
Toldja you wouldn't like the answer.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/12/2006 9:02 AM (GMT -6) | | I will address something. Selah, you said your son would think it "weird" for God to be keeping Satan and demons alive. (A very perceptive lad, he is) I think that is a powerful impression to explore.
Why would God continue to sustain evil beings?
What POSSIBLE reason could he have for such a decision?
Even beings that would like nothing MORE than to continue revolting against God??
How about...love.
God's empowering love is so empowering...that God grants us the existential freedom to enact even our self-destructive thoughts and behaviors...for a time.
This exists, I believe, with Satan and demons too.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/12/2006 1:15 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm just going to tell him they eat junk food and leftovers...when we're not looking.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/12/2006 9:40 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/13/2006 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Meph, I don't deny that they have all these qualities. I'd agree that they are personal beings. And I don't mean to slander them as "cosmic crap"... no, they were created as beautiful creatures for beautiful purposes. I truly apologize if I offended you.
Why would any offense be taken? Should I be offended? Cosmic crap was related to the "manure" idea. It's not about slandering anyone.
********************
Corey:
Here's my take, and I think it's consistent with your intuitions expressed in this thread: Only creatures that God wills to sustain are sustained; those he does not will to sustain are annihilated.
So the question is, does God will to eternally sustain all sentient/sapient creatures? Presently, I'm not convinced he is. First, I'm not clear why THAT should be the criteria. Secondly, the category is SO broad! Sentience extends very far down the chain as well. Every sentient creature that ever existed will be resurrected?!
Let's make it simple. God wishes to eternally sustaing all sentient/sapient creatures that can internalize and bring him glorification from their hearts. This would include angels and humans.
Why? Because God wants to be glorified...and, as Piper so aptly puts it..."God is MOST GLORIFIED when we are MOST SATISFIED in him." As I explained before, for this to consistently play out, God would have to save all personal beings. And it is metaphysically possible for God to internally wire sapient/sentient beings' dispositional realities such that eventual universal reconciliation can occur to let this happen.
God DESERVES to be glorified...and God wants as many PERSONS to enjoy that glorification as possible.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/13/2006 8:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Seems to be a formally valid syllogism. My question is about:
Biblical Assertion: Both humans and angels have the capacity to glorify God throughout eternity.
Biblically, I'm not clear that FALLEN angels have the capacity to glorify God throughout eternity. It may be that they are solidified against God.
Also, shouldn't we agree that the criteria of sentience is not adequate to define the category? Post Edited (Corey) : 9/13/2006 8:33:31 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/13/2006 8:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
God wants and deserves all glory. Amen! All creation was created for the glory of God. Good! God is not willing to miss out on any potential glorification. Yes!
But do fallen angels or sentient beasts have the potential to eternally glorify God? I'm not sure they do. Glory should be kept closely linked to love; the best glorification is love. I'm not sure these other creatures have that capacity.
Ok. Let's go with your thought. God is NOT willing to miss out on any potential glorification.
Let's even say that the BEST FORM of glorification is love. Let's further say, for the sake of argument, that fallen angels have lost the ability to love God. (Please recall that the dispositional reality wiring would prevent the TOTAL loss of this capacity...but I'm granting this for now.) The question would become this:
Which would glorify God more: Allowing demons to totally self-destruct eternally...OR to gather ANY LEVEL of glorification from them that is possible? Maybe they couldn't LOVE God but could HONOR God as the most HONORIFIC BEING in Creation. It seems possible to honor something but not outright love it. Perhaps they could apply their rationality and volition in this direction.
Is this possible? If it is, wouldn't God want to do that?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/13/2006 8:37:56 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/13/2006 8:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Okay, then we should agree that the criteria of sentience is not adequate to define the category.
If this works for you, fine. Specify. The category now includes: all sentient/sapient creatures that can internalize and bring him glorification from their hearts.
*************************
Corey:
Also, biblically, I'm not clear that FALLEN angels have the capacity to glorify God throughout eternity.
I just wanted it noted that all angels, prior to FALLING, have the ability to glorify God throughout eternity. That's all.
Because then, we'd have to explain HOW the fall removed their ability to glorify God. That's what one would have to say: that something in the nature of the fall utterly and irrevocably removed the ability to glorify God from the heart from fallen angels.
How someone could say this WITHOUT tacitly voicing the metaphysical impossibility of God to hardwire the angelic dispositional reality otherwise...is a mystery to me.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/13/2006 8:36:44 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/13/2006 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Great "howevers", Corey! 
Corey:
It might be that something would have to fundamentally change about their nature; it could be that it is their original nature to solidify early.
As long as we posit that it's metaphysically possible for God to hardwire angelic dispositional reality such that it is NEVER the case that 100% solidification is possible, then we have no issue. God could use the 0.00001% and bring them around. God is the Rejuvenator of Dry Bones! (Ezekiel)
Actually, if you think about it, isn't this EXACTLY God's modus operandi? Taking ashes (things that NO ONE thinks is further use for ANYTHING) and creating life and beauty from those ashes?
For God, it's possible!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/13/2006 10:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Yes, it's possible that God created angels such that they can repent. But is this the case? Seems like it is also possible that it is their nature to become solidified for/against God, and that this solidification has already taken place.
If...
It's genuinely possible for God to create angels such that they can repent...there's NOTHING STOPPING God from doing this...why wouldn't God do so if God knew that this would be instrumental to expanding his glorification?
There would be no reason at all. None that would be consonant with the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely-intelligent, all-loving, aesthetically-satisfied, triune God who genuinely desires that ALL be saved that CAN be saved.
Thus, in the absence of such reason...
I say that it's reasonable to say that God DOES create angels such that they can repent.
Thus, rendering the eventual universal reconciliation for all sapient/sentient beings who are able to internalize and glorify God from their hearts.
This would include angels.
Fallen angels.
Satan.
Seems logical to me. What do you think?
************************************
Corey:
All I'm after is a concession that angelic salvation is not a NECESSARY part of the universalist position. It might in fact be the case, but it ought not be a stumbling block for people like Selah who are considering it.
Here's the deal.
IF a person is AWARE that angelical reconciliation CAN be accomplished by God (ie. there is no metaphysical or logical limitation)...
...AND...
that God would, for whatever reason, WANT angelic reconciliation (ie. maximization of God's glory, wanting "all to be saved" etc)...
then, they can put those two pieces together HOWEVER they want to. If they wish they can affirm both of the things above, and just, by fiat, believe that some angels experience eternal destruction.
That's cool with me.
Some other people may not want to do that.
I could ask the question though...
What could possibly cause such a stumblingblock?
Seriously. I'd like to know some options as to WHAT POSSIBLE REASONS such a stumblingblock could occur.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/13/2006 1:45 PM (GMT -6) | | All
is
full
of
love.
It's
all
around
you.
Do
you
see
it? | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/13/2006 8:31 PM (GMT -6) | | |
I went with Marmite. I thought that sounded reasonable enough...  selah
MephEternal said...Selah, Really. What ARE you gonna tell him? It would actually be interesting to see what we SHOULD say whenever kids ask us those kinds of questions. I'm quite curious.
Post Edited (selah) : 9/13/2006 8:45:37 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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