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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/4/2006 12:09 PM (GMT -6) |   | Don't freak out. Just listen.
I believe that God's aseity is based upon the AESTHETIC SATISFACTION of God in God's own experience of being UNIFIED within Godself. This is what grounds God's self-existence.
But we also believe that God can FREELY EXPRESS that aesthetic satisfaction (in LOVING SOCIALITY) in contingent ways. And we also believe that as God EXPRESSES God's ad intra life, all of God's contingent expressions are loving.
Now...
Can you imagine a HUMAN BEING who became totally aesthetically satisfied in God? Someone who desires for connectivity, purpose, self-awareness, life, and loving intimacy were ALL COMPLETELY SATISFIED in God? Someone who got their lives SOLELY from their loving relationship with God?
This person would be FREE from the tyranny of of dysfunctional thoughts and compulsions.
Not only this, but this person would be able to FREELY EXPRESS the love shed abroad in their hearts to everyone else. And everything they did in the world would embody the LOVING REALITY that exists within them, through their communion with the Holy Spirit of God.
Does this sound familiar?
How about this?
Mark 12:28-34
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
To have all of our aesthetic drives find SATISFACTION IN GOD...and love others from that center...is more important than ALL THE religious or good activity that can be done in the world. It's MORE IMPORTANT for me to have every aesthetic drive oriented towards God being it's ultimate telos...than it is for me to TRY TO FIX THE WORLDS PROBLEMS VIA CHRISTIAN ACTIVISM. We are in the IMAGE of our Creator in that we (humans) are wired to have aesthetic satisfaction as a result of being unified with God! We spend our lives "dancing with God", and in so doing, we are the SALT of the earth! We then JOIN GOD in his MISSION to save His world. God works THROUGH us as we have submitted to God. And God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in God.
THIS is what the Kingdom of God IS.
THIS is the reality Jesus lived in!
THIS is how Jesus resisted the Devil's temptations. Jesus placed ALL SATISFACTION in God and he placed obeying God over the temptation of trying to FIX THE WORLD through any other means but God.
And...he...ended...up...saving...the...world...through...his...obedience...and...trust...in...God.
Think about the Labrynth. Sometimes the DIRECT way ain't the BEST way...or even the NEEDED way.
THIS is why Jesus is the New Adam. He TRUSTED God and was OBEDIENT...where Adam was not.
Does this make sense? Or am I crazy?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/4/2006 12:19:22 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/5/2006 12:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Cool. Thanks for the interaction.
What are the PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS that emerge from considering this idea? Particularly for "ministry"?
I think about this...
Luke 10:38-42
As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said. But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, "Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!"
"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset aboutmany things, but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."
If the MAIN THING that grounds our Christian existence is being totally focused on the beauty of God in Jesus such that all of our aesthetic drives become satisfied in Him, shouldn't this affect the presuppositions that we have aboutHOW we do ministry?
Don placed a great quote from Jesus. So WHY does it seems so burdensome and NON-restful to follow Jesus sometimes? Maybe because we have the "Martha syndrome." We're busy working for/with God...before we have taken the time to just SIT at Christ's feet.
And then when we try to tell Jesus about ALL things we've done "in His name"...
He turns and says that he never knew us...or worse yet...WE never knew HIM!
Hmmm...
This may not even fit...but it feels like it does...
Revelation 2:1-5
"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Yeah, you are doing those works...but where's the passionate LOVE for me that used to be there, grounding those works??
"I remember...the way...you used...to love...me..."
--From "You Used to Love Me" by Faith Evans
Wow.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/5/2006 1:30:24 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 10/5/2006 6:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Concerning practical things ...
From Arthur Pink's "Practical Christianity" ...
"Our present design is twofold: to censure a misuse, and to explain the meaning of the following verse: "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord; forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord" (1 Cor. 15:58). In the heedless hurry of this slipshod age not a few have taken those words as though they read, "Work for the Lord," and have used them as a slogan for what is now styled "Christian service," most of which is quite unscriptural—the energy of the flesh finding an outlet in certain forms of religious activities. In this day of pride and presumption it has been quite general to speak of engaging in work for the Lord, and to entertain the idea that He is beholden to such people for the same, that were their labours to cease, His cause would not prosper. To such an extent has this conceit been fostered that it is now a common thing to hear and read of our being "co-workers with God" and "co-operators" with Him. It is but another manifestation of the self-complacent and egotistical spirit of Laodicea (Rev. 3:17) and which has become so rife. "
I hope you see that continuing to support the status quo that exists within the mega-church structure is antithetical to "the work of the Lord" . ( whoops, did I say that out loud ? )
peace, don
The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/5/2006 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Don:
I hope you see that continuing to support the status quo that exists within the mega-church structure is antithetical to "the work of the Lord" .
Yessir. I do. (thanks for the GREAT quote, by the way)
I've actually been sharing some of my concerns about this with some of my acquaintances. Some people, I can tell, are hearing me and agreeing. Some people, I can tell, interpret what I'm saying as impractical and counter to being a "co-worker" with God. It feels kinda like this...
"Well, D. That experience you are describing is great and everything. I'm glad that God is transforming you the way God is. But don't you think you're being a little extreme? God has already shown us what we need to do. What about justice issues, and reconciliation, and all the things God has called us to DO? Your overemphasis on seeking God may cause people to stop doing the Lord's work...and think that prayer is all they need to do.
No one that has given this impression has been ANYTHING but sincere, loving, and well-meaning. Which is great on one hand...but disturbing on another. But I am not judging anyone. I KNOW full well that, if I hadn't had this transformation with God occur in me, I'd be saying the EXACT same things! I just see things differently now, that's all. I've never seen what Pink has spoken about with such clarity before now. I'm praying and I trust that God will open a door at the proper time to deal with these issues. Until then, I'm just gonna keep on keepin' on.
I believe that there is a way to use the mega-church structure to empower the Body for living out God's Kingdom wherever they are...WITHOUT falling into Type-A, "let's-git-er-done", CEO-esque, entertainment-centered American Christianity. With God, all things are possible. Even the transformation of the mega-church.
Still praying for you, brother.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/5/2006 7:37:39 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/5/2006 10:06 AM (GMT -6) | | It's just dawned on me how invested I am in work and ministry as the basis upon which I am 'recommended' to God (for acceptance, for love, for worth/value, for heaven, etc.). When I think of what really holds the relationship together, I run FIRST to the 'stuff' I 'do' and conclude that God's getting a return on his investment. Hopefully he'll find that return enough to accept and receive me. I haven't always viewed myself this way.
Here's the thing. You get into the rut of apprehending the truth of something, defining and categorizing it, and then filing it away and assuming that you've therefore "dealt" with it. We think that if we "define" things correctly we "possess" them. We think that if we properly understand and define an experience we've therefore HAD the experience. We collect maps of the world's great cities and call ourselves "world travelers" but never leave where we are; never actually travel. That's the temptation. We define humility and think that since we really know what it is that this makes us humble. We define the sort of loving intimacy God created us for and think that because we've finally understood our purpose that we're therefore fulfilling it. We diagnose but don't treat and then call ourselves 'doctors'. We collect maps of beautiful places but never visit them and still call ourselves 'tourists'.
It's a disease. It will even infect the admission of itself as a disease to avoid treatment. I think that since I now see that I'm like this, that I do this, and that it's harmful...that I've therefore solved it and done all that's required to escape it. I file even this insight away and go back to living the same way.
Mephi, how would you 'treat' this disease? If you even work this out, don't JUST diagnose. Describe the TREATMENT.
Fall(ing)(en) from grace,
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 10/5/2006 10:21:51 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/5/2006 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | | The treatment for the disease is as simple as the disease is hideous.
"Be still and know that I am God."
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."
"To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices"
WHY do you think that the Kingdom was LIKE LITTLE CHILDREN?
Any CHILD can do what Jesus is talking about here. Just focusing on who God is and who THEY are IN God.
And I am a living witness of this...I am LIVING THIS right now...
"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
It's that simple.
YOU'VE GOT TO BELIEVE IT. It's not just a mantra. It's notjust some wise words. It's the PATHWAY to the freedom you seek.
We were created to live in the daily knowledge of God as we live out WISDOM and remain in Christ's love!
I so want you to believe me.
Tom, we've talked. You've seen me. You know.
You on this board who've seen me over time. You know.
This is real, y'all.
Maybe this is why God has me testifying.
[And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Eternal life, being the knowledge of God and Jesus Christ, whom he sent.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/5/2006 11:42:00 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 10/5/2006 1:26 PM (GMT -6) | | | Tom: Here's the thing. You get into the rut of apprehending the truth of something, defining and categorizing it, and then filing it away and assuming that you've therefore "dealt" with it. We think that if we "define" things correctly we "possess" them. We think that if we properly understand and define an experience we've therefore HAD the experience. We collect maps of the world's great cities and call ourselves "world travelers" but never leave where we are; never actually travel. That's the temptation.
Corey: Wow! What an AWESOME expression of the intuitions driving most of Kierkegaard's work, in my opinion. This "poet's existance" is so easy to fall into! Anyway, thanks for pointing this out so well! This is the hound that nips at our heels all the time.
Honestly, I think this is essentially what Jesus may have had in mind when he talked about "beware the yeast of the Pharisees". They succumbed to the temptation of letting tradition ("definition" in your words) become a substitute for a living reality with God. All theology is SO prone to calcification. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/5/2006 2:35 PM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...
It's just dawned on me how invested I am in work and ministry as the basis upon which I am 'recommended' to God (for acceptance, for love, for worth/value, for heaven, etc.). When I think of what really holds the relationship together, I run FIRST to the 'stuff' I 'do' and conclude that God's getting a return on his investment. Hopefully he'll find that return enough to accept and receive me. I haven't always viewed myself this way.
Here's the thing. You get into the rut of apprehending the truth of something, defining and categorizing it, and then filing it away and assuming that you've therefore "dealt" with it. We think that if we "define" things correctly we "possess" them. We think that if we properly understand and define an experience we've therefore HAD the experience. We collect maps of the world's great cities and call ourselves "world travelers" but never leave where we are; never actually travel. That's the temptation. We define humility and think that since we really know what it is that this makes us humble. We define the sort of loving intimacy God created us for and think that because we've finally understood our purpose that we're therefore fulfilling it. We diagnose but don't treat and then call ourselves 'doctors'. We collect maps of beautiful places but never visit them and still call ourselves 'tourists'.
It's a disease. It will even infect the admission of itself as a disease to avoid treatment. I think that since I now see that I'm like this, that I do this, and that it's harmful...that I've therefore solved it and done all that's required to escape it. I file even this insight away and go back to living the same way.
There’s rumor of a new strain of pragmatism disease spreading. 
In all seriousness a very nice post, Tom.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/5/2006 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Don:
What is different about what you did today, compared to two weeks ago?
What is the fruit of this change in your life. Did you spend 10 minutes more in prayer ? 5 minutes less running around "doing" ? or did you do exactly the same thing, but think about it differently ?
Basically, what I did was I decided to take some time with God everyday. At least 2 blocks of time during a day. I have a specific way of doing it. From there, God started speaking. Like MAD clear. Then I was like, "Hey, I wonder if I can practice God's presence more than 2 times a day. Maybe even when I'm driving or something." Tried that. Worked out well. I kept on this pattern. Before I knew it, I found myself thinking more about God then I was thinking about what the world was telling me about myself. God became more REAL to me. Not only that, but the more I thought about God, the more I WANTED God. The more I pondered Jesus and his beauty...the more I WANTED to be in His presence. A divine addiction began. Now, I'm living in that divine addiction where my heart says just like the song....
Give me Jesus
Give me Jesus
You can have all the rest
Just give me Jesus.
When I got to the point that I didn't even want God's CALLING on my life...more than I wanted GOD Himself...things just took off! The key was just PRESSING IN. Almost like when Jacob wrestled the angel. "I'm NOT letting you go until you bless me" When we do that, God truly does give us a new name.  But make no mistake. It's NOT by sheer will alone...it's only by truly leaning on the GRACE of God. It is only by the grace of God that I am where I am in this process.
Again, this is just MY experience. It probably looks different for other people.
The fruit of this change is that I'm dying to all of my old false selves...and all of the faulty beliefs and harmful emotional reactions linked to those false selves. All of the baggage caused from childhood trauma and socialization of dysfunctional self-perception. You can ask anyone from my wife, my family in Texas, to Modes, to Tom. The change has been significant.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/5/2006 4:05:40 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/6/2006 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph: Think about the Labrynth. Sometimes the DIRECT way ain't the BEST way...or even the NEEDED way.
THIS is why Jesus is the New Adam. He TRUSTED God and was OBEDIENT...where Adam was not.
Does this make sense? Or am I crazy?
Jeff: This makes total sense to me. It's what scripture says throughout. The joy of the Lord is our strength. We know that Christ's reign will be fulfilled in a glorious way, and nothing in this life can hinder that. So nothing that happens in the meanwhile is significant enough to take us down as long as our heart is filled with that knowledge and joy.
What always slowed me down was desiring an apologetic/theodicy that would make the whole thing totally coherent in my mind. I don't think the search for that theodicy was a bad thing, in itself. But such searches have the potential to distract us like Mary, for sure. Even intrinsically good things can be distracting in just this way. If you look at 1 Cor. 7, Paul makes the same point about marriage. He says the married tend to be distracted because they "care" about pleasing their spouses as opposed to "attending to the Lord." If you look at the greek, the same words are used there as in the passage about Mary being distracted. But Paul says we (the married AND unmarried) are to be "without care," so we can attend to the Lord properly.
Excellent point, Meph. We ought never let our theology distract us from our first love. But how much more ought we, then, to share the liberating power of the understanding we attained from our seeking. It saves other people from having to work all those things out on their own. I've tried to do just this with my own kids. That's what teaching is supposed to be all about. That's what's great about boards like these. They not only give you a place to see others wrestling with the same kind of things, but you get insights from the dialogue. And that speeds up the process of eliminating all the wrong thinking in our theology that hinders that understanding that occasions the full joy and peace that SURPASSES understanding when we ATTEND to our first love in that understanding!
If you think about it. We could always experience joy overflowing at TIMES. But when the full understanding comes that allows you to see Love in ALL OF ITS COHERENT FULLNESS (apart from any supposed theodicy problems), then that joy starts setting in in a continuous stream. AWESOME!
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/6/2006 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | |
Meph: Think about the Labrynth. Sometimes the DIRECT way ain't the BEST way...or even the NEEDED way. THIS is why Jesus is the New Adam. He TRUSTED God and was OBEDIENT...where Adam was not. Does this make sense? Or am I crazy? Jeff: This makes total sense to me. It's what scripture says throughout. The joy of the Lord is our strength. We know that Christ's reign will be fulfilled in a glorious way, and nothing in this life can hinder that. So nothing that happens in the meanwhile is significant enough to take us down as long as our heart is filled with that knowledge and joy. What always slowed me down was desiring an apologetic/theodicy that would make the whole thing totally coherent in my mind. I don't think the search for that theodicy was a bad thing, in itself. But such searches have the potential to distract us like Mary, for sure. Even intrinsically good things can be distracting in just this way. If you look at 1 Cor. 7, Paul makes the same point. He says the married tend to be distracted because they "care" (worry) about pleasing their spouses and the unmarried "care" about pleasing the Lord in their body. But both modes of "caring" are opposed to "attending to the Lord." If you look at the greek, the same words are used there as in the passage about Mary being distracted. Paul says we (the married AND unmarried) are to be "without care," so we can attend to the Lord properly. We ought never let our theology distract us from our first love. But how much more ought we, then, to share the liberating power of the understanding we attained from our seeking. It saves other people from having to work all those things out on their own. I've tried to do just this with my own kids. That's what teaching is supposed to be all about . That's what's great about boards like these. They not only give you a place to see others wrestling with the same kind of things, but you get insights from the dialogue. And that speeds up the process of eliminating all the wrong thinking in our theology that hinders that understanding that occasions the full joy and peace that SURPASSES understanding when we ATTEND to our first love in that understanding! If you think about it, we could always experience joy overflowing at TIMES. But when the full understanding comes that allows you to see Love in ALL OF ITS COHERENT FULLNESS (apart from any perceived theodicy problems), then that joy starts setting in in a continuous stream. Then, like you said, you don't "care" (worry) what anyone thinks about you. You even rejoice when you can be counted worthy to suffer with your First Love! AWESOME!
Post Edited (jefscott) : 10/6/2006 7:40:59 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/6/2006 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
If you think about it, we could always experience joy overflowing at TIMES. But when the full understanding comes that allows you to see Love in ALL OF ITS COHERENT FULLNESS (apart from any perceived theodicy problems), then that joy starts setting in in a continuous stream. Then, like you said, you don't "care" (worry) what anyone thinks about you. You even rejoice when you can be counted worthy to suffer with your First Love! AWESOME!
YES. Very much so, yes.
**********************
Jeff:
We ought never let our theology distract us from our first love. But how much more ought we, then, to share the liberating power of the understanding we attained from our seeking. It saves other people from having to work all those things out on their own. I've tried to do just this with my own kids. That's what teaching is supposed to be all about. That's what's great about boards like these. They not only give you a place to see others wrestling with the same kind of things, but you get insights from the dialogue. And that speeds up the process of eliminating all the wrong thinking in our theology that hinders that understanding that occasions the full joy and peace that SURPASSES understanding when we ATTEND to our first love in that understanding!
This is where POW's accountability is right on time for me. He's just right.
lex orandi, lex credendi
Basically it's this, as I am internalizing it: The posture of our lives and the content of our relationality with God in said posture will determine what we believe about God. The issue is one between faith and life. It is not very helpful at all to try to "nail down" what we believe about God...and then worship God ACCORDING to that framework we just nailed down. This often leads to a radical (and unnecessary) discontinuity with the Church historical. We become radical schizmatics. We have to put first things first.
To ask questions about theodicy from an unworshipful stance is not healthy at all. As I've discovered. Not that you don't ask the questions...or think critically about the answers. But, for the Christian believer, if there is not a starting point of worship of the Triune God in asking the question, there may be some chance for real problems.
Right, POW?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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