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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/9/2006 11:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
Tom: It gnaws at me like a tick burying itself in my brain.
Brandon: Ewww...well, there's a picture I'm going to have stuck in my head all day long.
By the way Tom, not only does one more enter the ranks of the damned? But I suppose (and I know we went over this) when people are "disciplined" by God, how many actually make those kinds of decisions to cry out to God? Sure, that may be a given in eternity, because God has "all the time in the world" but then again, we are not talking then? We are talking now.
Meph Man, I agree that our ultimate telos is loving God. But I'm a Christian. However, to use an atheistic objection to that, how is that ultimately different for our loving God in the now, when even NON-Christians love better than us who, however imperfect attempt to do that? In the real concrete dimensions of life TODAY?
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/9/2006 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | And compare these:
The pope makes an academically critical remark about Islam and Muslims respond murdering nuns and burning chuches. But a crazy man murders defensless Amish girls...
...and the parents and family of the lost girls invite the crazy man's widow to their funeral to embrace HER, to NOT label HER, to free HER. And she comes.
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 10/9/2006 1:51:55 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/9/2006 11:16 PM (GMT -6) | | |
!!!
I hear you Tom..seems absurd!
This...and the whole satan thing. I just can't get it.
TGB said...
If everybody eventually makes it, then just get it over with. I dunno. Why hold out? However great the number of people who aren't ready NOW will eventually be ready. Nothing is ultimately lost.
...
No matter how good or bad it gets NOW, it all ends up the same. So what difference does it make what state the world is in when final-state proceedings are initiated? Just get it over with.
Tom Post Edited (selah) : 10/13/2006 5:59:52 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/9/2006 11:38 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Meph, this is great! You are beautiful (maybe its time to change your name from meph to ...um... something more beautiful? :)) !!! Your testimony is such a blessing. AND, I'm with you 100% on this! Gosh. When are you preachin'??
I haven't had much time to respond, but I want to get together with you, tom, (etc) to TALK about the beautiful/SK/Balthasar!!
Come on. Let's do it.
Blessings,
selah
MephEternal said...
I'll say it like this...
It's only been at THIS POINT that I see that. And once I made the decision to only seek him...not for a blessing, not for another mission, not for another calling, not for another person to help...but to JUST SEEK HIM for no other reason but the beauty that He is... (WONDERFUL)
...I'm a living witness for what happens when someone takes SK's "the purity of heart is to will ONE THING" seriously...and line that up with loving God with all your heart and soul. (AMEN!)
This is the EXISTENTIAL BACKING (from my experience) that I have for what I believe is a consistent biblical truth.
Seek first God's Kingdom and ALL will be added unto afterwards.
Post Edited (selah) : 10/13/2006 10:12:02 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/10/2006 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor things above nor things below...nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God.
For I consider that the suffering of this present time is not even worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Like Jeremiah, Tom, you are experiencing that horrible sense of dread, pain, senselessness-of-it-all, and wondering, within the small sqaure footage you occupy, what the hek it is all for, and it's not even near as bad yet as it has been in the past and even is in other countries, as you well know. Perhaps, though, from the Father's view, He has, for freedom'sake, allowed, and will allow, things to take their course until the "end," with the ever-present joy in front of Him; one more soul.
I truly believe there will come that time when this old world will not be able to hold back the birth of the end, and so be it. Let it come quickly, please. Until then, however, just keep trusting that our God is more than aware of the pain of it all and it will all be worth it.
Once again, I can't even begin to think of the logic behind umpteen trillion people being born to only end up in hell forever as their destiny. That is so meaningless and pointless that I'm ashamed that most theologins haven't been a tad bit more concerned about giving that one some more thought. No, there's something else going on here.
Who and what God can redeem, He will, in fact and in deed, redeem. No question about it.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/10/2006 9:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, I AM ENCOURAGED Meph...personally and for WH. Thanks for your kind words.
Regarding the whole beauty/ashes thing... that's Satan's MO indeed! He just makes me MAD...and that will just makes me a more FIERCE intercessor!
Remember this song "I pray for you.. you pray for me... I love you I need you to survive" We need to keep singing/living that.
Of course I'll pray for your sermon. I'm looking forward to it! 
peace and beauty,
selah
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
Post Edited (selah) : 10/13/2006 10:12:57 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/12/2006 7:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom: Like I said to Jeff, what’s the point? At t1 there are 4 billion people bound for the rehabilitative anguish of hell. God waits one more day for “one more soul” to escape that? It’s ludicrous. For every one that escapes it another 1,000 enter the ranks of the damned.
Jeff: I'm still confused. Are you saying that if they experienced the non-rehabilitative anguish of hell followed by annihilation it would be easier to understand than if UR is true? If so, explain that for me. I don't get that at all.
Tom: The longer God waits the more it’ll grow. The whole friggin world is cancerous with this. And God’s holding out for more diversity? Let another language develop so I have 20,001 languages sounding my praise in heaven instead of 20,000 languages?
It just stresses my structures beyond their breaking point.
Jeff: This is exactly why I think it buys us something in a theodicy to recognize that there is a temporal purpose of Christ's glorification that constrains God's providence. Otherwise, I think He would stop the insanity RIGHT NOW. God doesn't need any creatures to worship Him. He is completely self-sufficient within the godhead. So it is even harder to imagine why He would tolerate insanity to get more of what He already doesn't even need. But if the longsuffering is for Christ, THEN it all makes sense. God has to forebear to accomplish the maximal glorification of Christ in his temporal reign.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/12/2006 7:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom: Like I said to Jeff, what’s the point? At t1 there are 4 billion people bound for the rehabilitative anguish of hell. God waits one more day for “one more soul” to escape that? It’s ludicrous. For every one that escapes it another 1,000 enter the ranks of the damned.
Jeff: I'm still confused. Are you saying that if they experienced the non-rehabilitative anguish of hell followed by annihilation it would be easier to understand than if UR is true? If so, explain that for me. I don't get that at all.
Tom: Naw, I'm not offering a reason to doubt UR. I'm wondering why, if UR is true, God waits another day to wind things up, which leads to your next point...
Jeff: This is exactly why I think it buys us something in a theodicy to recognize that there is a temporal purpose of Christ's glorification that constrains God's providence. Otherwise, I think He would stop the insanity RIGHT NOW.
Tom: This is all I was trying to say but wasn't able to zero in on it. This is what's missing from all our UR-talk so far. We haven't be able to articulate, so far as I can tell, what real beauty and glorification are secured HERE, NOW, in THIS life and ONLY in this life, beauties that CANNOT be had by in the afterlife. Mephi, I don't think, wants to say those won to Christ postmortem give up anything like this. Not sure. We want to extend the SAME gains/glories to ALL, even those who come to faith in the afterlife. But once we do THAT the present is de-eschatologized. The question we need to asnwer is: What enduring beauty is available in and through THIS life that can ONLY be had in this life and is by definition forfeited by those who come to faith postmortem? It seems to me there has to some such beauty/glory. It would make sense of God's even going with embodied beauty to begin with.
The problem with finding just what this might be is that human existence both prior to and post-mortem is equally (a) embodied, (b) characterized by LFW, (c) adequately ambiguous. But any beauty/glory that's UNIQUELY available premortem would have some contextual factors that obtain in this life but not in the afterlife. I can't tell what those might be.
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 10/12/2006 7:51:35 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/12/2006 8:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
This is all I was trying to say but wasn't able to zero in on it. This is what's missing from all our UR-talk so far. We haven't be able to articulate, so far as I can tell, what real beauty and glorification are secured HERE, NOW, in THIS life and ONLY in this life, beauties that CANNOT be had by in the afterlife. Mephi, I don't think, wants to say those won to Christ postmortem give up anything like this. Not sure. We want to extend the SAME gains/glories to ALL, even those who come to faith in the afterlife. But once we do THAT the present is de-eschatologized. The question we need to asnwer is: What enduring beauty is available in and through THIS life that can ONLY be had in this life and is by definition forfeited by those who come to faith postmortem? It seems to me there has to some such beauty/glory. It would make sense of God's even going with embodied beauty to begin with.
The problem with finding just what this might be is that human existence both prior to and post-mortem is equally (a) embodied, (b) characterized by LFW, (c) adequately ambiguous. But any beauty/glory that's UNIQUELY available premortem would have some contextual factors that obtain in this life but not in the afterlife. I can't tell what those might be.
Let's remember what the losses are.
Let's say that I really want to go to my 15th high school reunion. I really, REALLY want to go to that particular one because of a certain 15 year celebration that's been planned. Now let's say that because of a closed airport, that I had to miss it. This would be an ETERNAL LOSS for me...because there is no way that I can ACTUALLY experience the missed high school reunion.. I can see videos and pictures. Heck, after the Resurrection, I can even talk to the people who were actually there! But I have missed the beauty of experiencing the high school reunion for myself. And here's the thing, even if I go to every single high school reunion after that...none of those will be the 15th year celebration, which is what I REALLY wanted.
In like manner, whenever we operate against God's telos, due to our despair, we create ETERNAL LOSSES to ourselves and to God. None of those opportunities for increased beautiful experience can ever be brought back. One may have the same TYPE of experiential opportunity reoccur...but not the particular MISSED potential experience. The potential beautiful experience of pre-Judgment Creation is NOT the "same" as the beautiful experience POST-Judgment...for obvious reasons.
How will this play out? Let's just use Satan as an example.
God has effectively lost ALL potential beautiful experience that God could have had from Satan had Satan been a loyal servant of God FOR CREATION and HUMANITY. God will NEVER have the experience of Satan actually HELPING Adam and Eve to remain faithful to God. God will never have the experience of Satan actually trying to HELP humanity along with a cheerful heart. That would have been a beautiful experience for God. Satan serving his master, in helping the humans during the probationary period. But God missed out on that. And missed out on it ETERNALLY. Not only that, but Satan himself missed out on that, too. Both God AND Satan eternally lost possible beautiful experience that BOTH could have shared, had Satan not fallen. Even when Satan is restored and in right relationship to God after the rock-bottom thing, neither he nor God will ever be able to bring back the past. They can only accept the losses of "what might have been."
Now, this may not be a "big deal" to some of us humans. But for a God who seeks to MAXIMIZE God's beautiful experience in God's contingent expression on a moment-to-moment basis...
it's a big deal!
As long as the losses mean something TO GOD and have impacts ON US, it's a big deal.
And it's a big deal enough to say that it is TRUE that temporal actions of sentient beings have ETERNAL RAMIFICATIONS upon Creation (The total amount of beautiful experience seen in Creation; the missed fulfillment of sentient beings, etc) and God (God doesn't experience all the beauty that God COULD be experiencing at the moment).
Remember. ALL that we need for moral autonomy to exist is the this:
There must be eternal ramifications for the free-willed temporal choices of sentient being A that are completely commensurate with the total impact of those choices...to God, the self, and Creation.
With this idea, this occurs. The losses to God and Creation are REAL. And the eternal losses to the despairing creatures are totally commensurate with the actual choices that they made in the "probationary period"
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/12/2006 8:34:27 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/12/2006 8:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Morever...
The faulty CHARACTER/PERSONALITY DEVELOPMENT that one had been developing during the probationary period is eternally lost as well.
If a person has spent all their lives living in something UNREAL really thinking that it was truth...when REALITY hits them full force...they will end up losing a LOT of the "self" that they self-disposed towards. Not only is that realization probably going to be very painful...it is also wasted energy, time, and potential that is eternally gone.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/12/2006 8:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Namaste-
I agree of course that missed opportunities to be beautiful are permanently lost, whether they're missed in this life or the next. And this is why I don't find the "missed opporunities" argument a sufficient explanation for (a) what unique this-worldly beauties are forfeited by postmortem folk, and (b) why God doesn't come back now and end it all. If fact, given God's concern for the increasing loss of beauty, I'd think God would WANT to end it today. That would effectively stop the maddress. But God doesn't stop it. It's puzzing. The "missed opportunities" explanation, though TRUE, doesn't explain what makes premortem missed opportunities significantly different from postmortem missed opportunities; what makes premortem missed glory a DIFFERENT thing than postmortem missed glory.
Namaste: The faulty CHARACTER/PERSONALITY DEVELOPMENT that one had been developing during the probationary period is eternally lost as well. If a person has spent all their lives living in something UNREAL really thinking that it was truth...when REALITY hits them full force...they will end up losing a LOT of the "self" that they self-disposed towards.
Tom: Now THIS is a sufficient explanation (and one I remember mentioning before  but forgot!), a significant and unique premortem reality and source of beauty that's irrevocably lost by portmortem sufferers: a loss of SELF. If freely disposed personhood or self is what reflects glory, then there's a significant and qualitative canyon that separates premortem personhood from postmortem personhood, something that can't be redeemed once the canyon is crossed. Mother Teresa will be more a self, more a reflecting self, than will Hitler be (provided this is all true). This, Namaste, is MORE than the loss of "missed opportunities."
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 10/12/2006 9:00:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/12/2006 8:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
I trust your on your way with your book, eh, bro? I noticed on some recent thread you said something about an upcoming sermon. What day will that be?
I'm pulling together all of my notes, threads and stuff. It's a lot of stuff to go through. But I'm coalescing...
I will be preaching on Sunday morning (both services), on Oct 22. Please be prayerful for it. I really believe that God has a powerful word to speak!
***********************
Namaste: The faulty CHARACTER/PERSONALITY DEVELOPMENT that one had been developing during the probationary period is eternally lost as well. If a person has spent all their lives living in something UNREAL really thinking that it was truth...when REALITY hits them full force...they will end up losing a LOT of the "self" that they self-disposed towards.
Tom: Now THIS is a sufficient explanation, a significant and unique premortem reality and source of beauty that's irrevocably lost by portmortem sufferers: a loss of SELF.
Great! 
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/12/2006 9:20 PM (GMT -6) | | | Tom: Mother Teresa will be more a self, more a reflecting self, than will Hitler be (provided this is all true). This, Namaste, is MORE than the loss of "missed opportunities."
Jeff: Right. There can be "missed opportunities" in purely rehabilitative processes, too. But the point about Mother Teresa is similar to my point about how volitional suffering WITH Christ is distinguished from rehabilitative sufferings. They are not indentical in quality. Which is why one fits one for reigning WITH Christ temporally and the other doesn't. Remember how Ephesians says the church is his body, the FULLNESS of him. Quantity matters when we talk FULLNESS. And quantity in this regard entails the passage of time. Cause we don't all exist at the SAME time.
I think in one sense, the epitome of Christ's temporal reign will be over when rehabilitation begins. Whatever occurs after Christ delivers the kingdom to the Father is qualitatively different than the temporal aspect of Christ's reign. Otherwise, there is no substantive significance to that transition. The transition has to signify SOMETHING about divine purpose, or else it wouldn't include the clause "IN ORDER THAT God (the Father) may be all in all."
Post Edited (jefscott) : 10/12/2006 9:38:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/13/2006 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | (excuse me. TGB sorry I missed you guys the other day... just doing overwhelm as you probably figured. )
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...jsut thought it was getting too serious in here for a minute  love, selah
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
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