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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/8/2006 11:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Wow. What a world.
I'm thinking to myself...
God, what are you waiting for? Just send Christ back now, get it over with. Given UR, why wait any longer? Right? Just finish it.
Is that a wrong way to think?
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 8:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Here is a consideration that I can think of...
The earth's population is now just over 6.4 billion...and expected to increase by the year. It is expected to be 9 billion by 2042. Now, I don't have to tell you that our human population is WAY MORE NOW than it's ever been before. Now, let's look at something...
Genesis
"God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
and...
Acts
"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."
The plan is right in front of our faces, kinda.
If I were God and I wanted to try to maximize the number of "little images" that would be eternally enjoying my presence...AND if I wanted them to "subdue the earth"...I would do JUST what God has done.
1) Spread them out.
2) Let them multiply.
3) Give them TIME to maximize their multiplication.
Now...
Remember how Revelation makes it seem like there are "wars and rumors of wars" before the end? There is no way that John the Revelator could have understood the concept of annihilation via weapons of mass destruction. And how deep the fear and threat from that possiblity would be. All the wars and battles that EMERGE from the threat of weapons of mass destruction. (ie. Cold War, Bay of Pigs, Operation Iraqi Freedom, etc) We now have the capacity to completely eliminate ALL LIFE (except cockroaches) on the planet via nuclear holocaust. Not to mention biological weaponry and such.
And think about this. If a human-created extinction level event occurs, not ONLY are there no more humans demonstrating God's glory...and there's no more subduing the earth going on...but it's also the case that there will be NO MORE HUMANS emerging on the scene of Creation.
This doesn't help God's agenda of MAXIMIZING God's glory!
Anyways...
What if God decided this:
I am going to allow the human race to continue "subduing" the earth...and FILLING IT...and at the same time, MAXIMIZING the number of human beings that EMERGE into Creation...until there is a level at which the population and/or world situation makes the threat of extinction level events an IMMINENT DANGER. Then, we'll wrap things up.
In other words, Satan would love nothing more than for nuclear annihilation (unto total extinction of the human species) to happen. Think about it. Satan would see human beings use their VAST god-like creative powers to DESTROY themselves. It would be the ultimate sacrifice for Das Nichtige! But I don't think that God isn't going to let Satan have THAT much fun. Nope. It's not like God couldn't deal with that. It's just that God's not going to let the Devil have that much fun. Satan can ONLY DO what God ultimately allows. (Please read the first chapter of Job. I think this is VERY, VERY important!)
Hey, don't trip on this last thing. Even Doc's theodicy says STRAIGHT UP that God sets the ultimate parameters by which Creation (and creatures) can operate. This INCLUDES Satan's activity. Just like God has set the time for the elapse of this temporal period, so can God set "boundaries" for Satan's activities!
In my mind, God is going to wait RIGHT UP UNTIL the point that we have multiplied and technologically advanced (globally speaking) where humanly self-created total annihilation is fairly imminent...if that ever occurs.
The net result of all that is that there's MORE humans to enjoy God's glory.
Which is what God wants.
This is WHY God wanted us to MULTIPLY in the first place!!!
Does this make sense to you, Tom?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/9/2006 8:22:09 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/9/2006 8:26 AM (GMT -6) | | From this Canadian to my American brothers and sisters...Happy Thanksgiving (today's our Thanksgiving)...whatever.
I was reading on Yahoo News about how the US will consider even more sanctions. So. What does this do and what is it's aim? Sanctions create the conditions whereby mad dawg  Kim Jong Il will bow to giving up it's nuclear weapon's program. So, for example, cement that South Korea WAS going to send to North Korea for flood relief is not going to be sent. Many North Koreans will suffer. Sanctions would most likely include food and oil relief. Again, many North Koreans will suffer. Given whether you believe that sanctions work or not (can we say they NEVER work?) is this not a case in which "many suffer for the one" for greater good purposes?
What can we say about the "big picture?" Is THIS a lesser evil to stave off some GREATER evil?
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Brothers,
Luke 13:1-5
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
I'm just going to pose this question.
To theodicy enthusiasts like myself.
What if instances of pain, suffering, and danger are NOT opportunities to try to figure out what God is doing?
What if they are essential opportunities for US to check our own RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOD?
This is NOT to say that we cannot pray for situations...or empathize with the world's suffering. Of course, we do that. Even Jesus wept over Jerusalem.
However, I'm asking myself...What is the most needful thing? (Que Mary and Martha)
What is going to help me/us live more and more in the Great Commandments?
How does the occasion of my pondering the suffering and death of the world make me think about MY state before God?
Perhaps that was the question that Jesus was always asking.
Just some thoughts, gentleman. From a FELLOW theodicy enthusiast.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/9/2006 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Meph Man: There is no way that John the Revelator could have understood the concept of annihilation via weapons of mass destruction.
Not according to this book: http://www.amazon.com/Theres-New-World-Coming-Revelation/dp/0890814406/sr=8-4/qid=1160400909/ref=pd_bbs_4/104-9808240-6527938?ie=UTF8&s=books
By the way, it has a "Four outta Five Star" rating! 
When I was a young Christian, I **LOVED** reading about all that speculation and conspiracy! It was cool! We were ON THE VERGE of something great about to happen! Those were the days. I suppose they served a purpose.
By the way, I'm not really asking about "the big picture" per se. What I'm asking about is more in line with the "Torture" thread. Here we are faced with a moral dilemma. And in THIS REAL LIFE SITUATION many suffer because of one man. Sorry, I wasn't clear on this.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon.
What's your opinion on the admittedly speculative reason that I gave to Tom. Do you feel like it makes any sense? Does it at least seem like a PLAUSIBLE idea, given what we know about God and God's desire to maximize God's glory in Creation?
I'm basically saying that there may be a GLOBAL TIPPING POINT that God is aware of that he is waiting on.
Perhaps this is why ONLY THE FATHER knew the day or hour, when Jesus was on the earth.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/9/2006 8:58:45 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Uh, feedback? 
Um, this ain't freakin' anyone out, is it?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 10/9/2006 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Tom: Given UR, why wait any longer? Right? Just finish it. Is that a wrong way to think?
Corey: Yes, that's a wrong way to think!! It seems to reflect an attitude of "it just doesn't matter" in regards to this world. Screw it, God wins in the end, so why not just end it now 'cuz this whole thing sucks anyway. Ugh!
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest."
Isn't the answer found here? Pulling up the weeds would remove the possibility of the best harvest. The whole timeline is driven by pursuing maximal beauty, not minimizing possible (or actual) evil.
Consider taking the argument to the absurd extreme. Why not just end this probationary epoch right away at the beginning?
Post Edited (Corey) : 10/9/2006 9:09:02 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Pulling up the weeds would remove the possibility of the best harvest. The whole timeline is driven by pursuing maximal beauty, not minimizing possible (or actual) evil.
VERY well articulated, sir. Thou speakest well, brother.
Corey, you have just articulated a CHIEF SPOT OF IDOLATRY for people, like us, who are interested in theodicy.
We put the wrong things first.
We spend so much time thinking about HOW God is minimizing evil in every possible way...and getting CAUGHT UP in that...
That we don't understand that minimizing evil is NOT WHAT THIS IS about.
(I see this so clearly from my OWN life!)
Does God minimize evil where God can? Of course.
But that's NOT the main point of this project. LOVE IS.
So it may be helpful if LESS of our time were spent on figuring out the evil of the world...
and MORE of our time spent on finding new ways to love God right where we are.
Excellent, Corey.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/9/2006 9:12:24 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
What does inhabiting the earth have to do with maximizing "little images?"
Hmmm...I thought this would have been the easiest idea to get.
Ok.
Here's the idea: God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature.
In other words, as human beings end up in loving union with God, God is most glorified in that human beings.
Now...if God wanted to maximize God's glory...it would make SENSE that God would want as many human beings to emerge in Creation as possible. Now because of free will, WE determine how many human beings are born. God doesn't control that. But what God can do is work with human history and BE VERY PATIENT...as we grow and "subdue the earth"
The more God waits, the more human beings come on the scene.
More glorification for God, OVERALL
and...
MORE CREATURES (OVERALL) WHO HAVE BECOME LIKE GOD VIA LOVING SOCIALITY
See it?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/9/2006 9:24:21 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/9/2006 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | See, Corey? I think you bring out the different underlying attitudes and perspectives which drive our theology..much like Luther's being a lawyer drove him to concentrate on "law issues" and justification.
When I read Meph Man's: So it may be helpful if LESS of our time were spent on figuring out the evil of the world... and MORE of our time spent on finding new ways to love God right where we are.
It's almost as if I could read into that that the underlying driving motivation is a basic concern for humanity. As if nothing is essentially different between evangelicalism and the liberal theology for yesterday only we tack God on the end of it. Just my feel'ns. One's that could very well be the root of any crisis of faith I might ever have.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 9:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Meph, maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what would be controversial about what you're saying. Except I may add the small qualification that beauty is both qualitative and quantitive; it's not just about maximizing the number of people in beautiful relation with God -- there's both depth and breadth.
Makes sense. Good note.
I guess it seems controversial to me because I've never HEARD or thought of this idea before today. The links just seemed to pour out of me this morning with that.
Oh,well. At least, I ain't crazy! That's the main thing.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/9/2006 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | Meph Man: Shouldn't that reality help contextualize our use of time and energy?
Brandon: I agree that loving God SHOULD HELP in contextualizing our use of time and energy. But I can't help but see that ultimately THAT love has to not look but BE tangible. In otherwords, worked out in the real concrete realities of life. Hence, Rodney King's, "Can't we all just get aloooong???"
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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