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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/13/2006 11:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | Namaste: Hmmm...that's what I've been going by. Maybe not an exhaustive search on how many individual people groups use the word "evil" in what ways...but just paying attention to my surroundings and world affairs, etc. From what I understand, psychologists and other social science people have been claiming for a BIT now that the term "evil" may not be helpful to the human condition.
Tom: I was just reading through some of Scott M. Peck’s (an extremely popular writer as you know) book People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil. Now, you’re far more knowledgeable than I am, and you’re married to somebody who specializes in this. But I was just browsing through some titles by secular writers and it didn’t seem obvious that the term “evil” is a term psychologists are running from:
Evil and Human Agency: Understanding Collective Evildoing (Cambridge Cultural Social Studies), by Arne Johan Vetlesen,
Minding Evil: Explorations of Human Iniquity (At the Interface/Probing the Boundaries 23), by Margaret Soenser Breen,
The Pathology Of Man: A Study Of Human Evil, by Steven J. Bartlett, Eric A. Zillmer, and Irving Greenberg,
Evil: An Investigation, by Lance Morrow,
The Social Psychology of Good and Evil, by Arthur Miller,
The Psychology of Good and Evil: Why Children, Adults, and Groups Help and Harm Others, by Ervin Staub,
The Roots of Evil: The Origins of Genocide and Other Group Violence, by Ervin Staub,
Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty, by Roy F. Baumeister,
Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Genocide and Mass Killing, by James Waller,
Rethinking Evil: Contemporary Perspectives, by Maria Pia Lara,
The Many Faces of Evil, by Amelie Rorty,
On Evil (Thinking in Action), by Adam Morton.
I’m sure these writers all employ a wide variety of terms to express the thing we call “evil,” but they haven’t dumped the word itself as offensive or unhelpful. Where’s the widespread agreement among experts for the abandonment of the term “evil”?
Namaster: Ok, Tom. If someone uses the term "Don't judge me!" when they are experiencing Holy Spirit conviction, what does that tell you about the way the individual and cultural understandings that MAY be pervading our environment about what people THINK "judgement" means. Shouldn't that impulse that we BOTH see people do...give us a hint that maybe that word is not very helpful. Maybe?
Tom: You’re missing my point. I was describing how people respond with “Don’t judge me” when we DON’T use the word “judge.” THEY introduce it. And SOME will introduce it even to YOU when you’re using your preferred vocabulary (beauty, peace, well-being, etc.).
Tom
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Tom
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| Posted 10/13/2006 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: Adolp Hitler is a beautiful creation of God who has INESTIMABLE worth and is unconditionally LOVABLE by God and human beings, regardless of anything he says or does to himself or others. Hitler, by his very existence, demonstrates some of the beauty and glory of God. There is NO NEGATIVE PERSONAL WORTH that anyone could ever extend to Adolf Hitler...because he is created in the Image of his Creator.
Tom: I’d just say he’s unconditionally loved by God, period. If you want a statement that expresses the GROUNDS of Hitler’s worth/value then I’d leave US out of it, since (as you say) we don’t figure into that at all. Hitler is created in God’s image and bears that image by virtue of the fact that he’s a human being. End of story.
I wouldn’t say humans, however evil, always “demonstrate” some of the beauty and glory of God (unless you think Hitler demonstrates his existence, which is a weird way of talking). I don’t think that’s true. I agree that his very human existence means he’s unconditionally loved. And I agree that given OUR point of view from in Christ we are able to recognize Hitler as valuable and loved by God. But I don’t think any of this means having to admit Hitler always is actually successful in demonstrating God’s beauty. He might not be. We might have to look BEYOND everything we SEE in Hitler’s actions, beyond anything actual demonstration, to see someone that’s valued and loved.
Later on 1Cor.
Tom
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 11:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I was just reading through some of Scott M. Peck’s (an extremely popular writer as you know) book People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil. Now, you’re far more knowledgeable than I am, and you’re married to somebody who specializes in this. But I was just browsing through some titles by secular writers and it didn’t seem obvious that the term “evil” is a term psychologists are running from...
I’m sure these writers all employ a wide variety of terms to express the thing we call “evil,” but they haven’t dumped the word itself as offensive or unhelpful. Where’s the widespread agreement among experts for the abandonment of the term “evil”?
You are very right. I am married to a counselor...and we talk about this. And those conversations, among others, have been VERY HELPFUL in my having my particular perspective on this.
Moreover, Tom, it seems like you are taking the idea that because psychologists write books dealing with the term "evil", that this lends credibility that the term is HELPFUL as a category. These are, more than likely, books that INVESTIGATE the phenomenon of "evil" BECAUSE the term already exists in social discourse. This does nothing in talking about the authors' particular STANCE on the usefulness of the word in social discourse. Or how their stance on how the word, if possible, may be REDEFINED. No one said that psychologist are totally AVOIDANT of the term in writing their works! Come on, now, Tom.
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Namaster: Ok, Tom. If someone uses the term "Don't judge me!" when they are experiencing Holy Spirit conviction, what does that tell you about the way the individual and cultural understandings that MAY be pervading our environment about what people THINK "judgement" means. Shouldn't that impulse that we BOTH see people do...give us a hint that maybe that word is not very helpful. Maybe?
Tom: You’re missing my point. I was describing how people respond with “Don’t judge me” when we DON’T use the word “judge.” THEY introduce it. And SOME will introduce it even to YOU when you’re using your preferred vocabulary (beauty, peace, well-being, etc.).
I was not missing your point. I was making another one. If we see that the word "judge" is typically being used and interpreted in such negative overtones, then shouldn't this give us a hint about whether or not it's helpful to use?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I’d just say he’s unconditionally loved by God, period. If you want a statement that expresses the GROUNDS of Hitler’s worth/value then I’d leave US out of it, since (as you say) we don’t figure into that at all. Hitler is created in God’s image and bears that image by virtue of the fact that he’s a human being. End of story.
No way. That's why I said that Hitler is unconditionally LOVABLE by God and humans. We cannot leave out the fact that Hitler is lovable BY US...just like he is unconditionally loved by God.
WE have the ability to UNCONDITIONALLY LOVE Hitler...and we cannot ignore that.
WE are to "love our enemies"
It's not just a truth claim. It's a calling to LIVE in love towards Hitler...and Osama.
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Tom:
I wouldn’t say humans, however evil, always “demonstrate” some of the beauty and glory of God (unless you think Hitler demonstrates his existence, which is a weird way of talking). I don’t think that’s true. I agree that his very human existence means he’s unconditionally loved. And I agree that given OUR point of view from in Christ we are able to recognize Hitler as valuable and loved by God. But I don’t think any of this means having to admit Hitler always is actually successful in demonstrating God’s beauty. He might not be. We might have to look BEYOND everything we SEE in Hitler’s actions, beyond anything actual demonstration, to see someone that’s valued and loved.
Ewwwwww...
All beings who are in the Image of God, no matter how privated, testify to the WISDOM, POWER, and GLORY of our God. Hitler was a walking, talking biological WONDER...that had a incorporeal element that could relate to that biological wonder. Just Hitler's EXISTENCE displays the beauty and glory of his Creator. NONE of Hitler's activities need to affect our appreciation of that.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/13/2006 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: Moreover, Tom, it seems like you are taking the idea that because psychologists write books dealing with the term "evil", that this lends credibility that the term is HELPFUL as a category. These are, more than likely, books that INVESTIGATE the phenomenon of "evil" BECAUSE the term already exists in social discourse. This does nothing in talking about the authors' particular STANCE on the usefulness of the word in social discourse. Or how their stance on how the word, if possible, may be REDEFINED. No one said that psychologist are totally AVOIDANT of the term in writing their works! Come on, now, Tom.
Tom: <!-- -->  I was rather just assuming that the term hadn't been so wholly rejected by these authors that they avoided using it. Of course they find it HELPFUL as a category. That's why they title their books with "evil." And yes, this helpfulness is due to the widespread and established employment of the term in public discourse. That's my friggin point! It's VERY widespread and VERY established. So much so that my guess is these authors do NOT end up arguing for abandoning the term but rather for adjusting our understanding of the term. We'd have to read them all to see, but I doubt I'm entirely wrong.
Tom <!-- -->
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: Adolp Hitler is a beautiful creation of God who has INESTIMABLE worth and is unconditionally LOVABLE by God and human beings, regardless of anything he says or does to himself or others. Hitler, by his very existence, demonstrates some of the beauty and glory of God. There is NO NEGATIVE PERSONAL WORTH that anyone could ever extend to Adolf Hitler...because he is created in the Image of his Creator.
Jeff: I think it leads to confusion for some. For some, being "unconditionally LOVABLE by God" should mean that the EXPERIENCE of that love should be identical for all people. How do we articulate the unconditionality of love while at the same time communicating the fact that how one EXPERIENCES another's love IS conditional?
The only point, Jeff, I am making is that Hitler is a being who can be a target for unconditional love BY US. Hitler is already unconditionally loved by God. Since unconditional love towards Hitler is possible, then WE, the Body of Christ, are to extend that love towards him.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I was rather just assuming that the term hadn't been so wholly rejected by these authors that they avoided using it. Of course they find it HELPFUL as a category. That's why they title their books with "evil." And yes, this helpfulness is due to the widespread and established employment of the term in public discourse. That's my friggin point! It's VERY widespread and VERY established. So much so that my guess is these authors do NOT end up arguing for abandoning the term but rather for adjusting our understanding of the term. We'd have to read them all to see, but I doubt I'm entirely wrong.
Let's try this...
Because the term "evil" is so widespread...it can be a common ground for many. We can at least say that the term "evil" can be a SPRINGBOARD into discussion what we MEAN by that term. It can be the case that, through discussion, we find out that "evil" really ISN'T as helpful as many people think. And from THERE then we can see if there is any other language that is MORE HELPFUL to use.
How about this, Tom?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Good grief! Of COURSE we have the ability to unconditionally love Hitler. And we SHOULD so love him. But I thought you wanted a statement that expresses the GROUNDS, the WHY, of Hitler's value and worth. And THAT rests entirely with God. Hitler's not worth something because we love him. His worth is independent of our recognition of it, though we shouuld recognize it! Yes.
The entire reason that Hitler is unconditionally lovable objectively speaking is because of God's unconditional love. Without God's unconditional love to all humans as a basis, we could never be albe to say definitively that ANY human's unconditional "lovability" even exists! It would just be a bald assertion with no real backing. The term "unconditional lovable" ASSUMES that there is a valid source of uncondtional love that grounds making something unconditionally lovable. And that source is God.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/13/2006 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: Because the term "evil" is so widespread...it can be a common ground for many. We can at least say that the term "evil" can be a SPRINGBOARD into discussion what we MEAN by that term. It can be the case that, through discussion, we find out that "evil" really ISN'T as helpful as many people think. And from THERE then we can see if there is any other language that is MORE HELPFUL to use.
How about this, Tom?
Tom: I'm kissing ya!
As we're sensitive to people, the conversation will supply its own vocab. I'd probably NOT introduce the term "evil" myself. But if THEY introduce it I'd jump on it and ask, "Interesting that you brought up "evil." Tell me, what really do you mean by that? What really is evil anyway?" and THEN lead into a new cluster of terms that relate the concept to more accuate pictures or analogies (beauty, sickness, dispair, narcisism, etc.).
What d'ya think?
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 10/13/2006 12:00:40 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
If you want a statement that incorporates the GROUNDS of Hitler's value as a human being AND Hitler as a viable OBJECT of OUR love, then sure. You got it. But as you worded it, it looked to me like Hitler was only LOVABLE by God and us, whereas he is IN FACT loved by God (and some of us) and LOVABLE by all of us.
NOW you got my meaning! YAY! 
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/13/2006 12:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: The only point, Jeff, I am making is that Hitler is a being who can be a target for unconditional love BY US. Hitler is already unconditionally loved by God. Since unconditional love towards Hitler is possible, then WE, the Body of Christ, are to extend that love towards him.
Jeff: Yes, but even so, it is not always true, is it, that identical actions to various persons are appropriate? If a murderer is repentant, like Paul, we can TREAT him one way. Otherwise, we can't. See what I mean? There's GOT to be some way of articulating the unconditionality of love so that we DO is recognized as love even when it appropriately VARIES. This is what people don't like though, I think. I think they assume that UNCONDITIONAL love means that conditions have NOTHING to do with how love expresses itself. And we know that's not true.
People either get it or they don't. But we need language that EXPRESSES it to where it's not so subject to interpretation.
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | | hmmmmm...
ok...
Tom, I get your point. I really do.
You don't want to rule out any language, out of hand, that MAY be helpful.
I got it.
I PERSONALLY don't want to use the terms "evil" and "judge" for reasons I have stated. If someone ELSE brings up the term, then I would use that opportunity to discuss what the terms mean to them...and possibly see if there are other terms to use.
I just wouldn't use the terms MYSELF.
God BLESS you friggin Ps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 12:12:19 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 12:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
Yes, but even so, it is not always true, is it, that identical actions to various persons are appropriate? If a murderer is repentant, like Paul, we can TREAT him one way. Otherwise, we can't. See what I mean? There's GOT to be some way of articulating the unconditionality of love so that we DO is recognized as love even when it appropriately VARIES. This is what people don't like though, I think. I think they assume that UNCONDITIONAL love means that conditions have NOTHING to do with how love expresses itself. And we know that's not true.
People either get it or they don't. But we need language that EXPRESSES it to where it's not so subject to interpretation.
How about this....
Love is unconditional. Care that comes from unconditional love is CONTEXTUAL, and therefore conditional.
In other words, whatever we do to any of our fellow human beings in the form should be GROUNDED in unconditional love. Now, the CARE may look like being locked up in a psychiatric facility in 5 point metal restraints. But it can STILL be from a grounding of unconditional love.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
YO. I think the blanket unconditionality just seems too absolute to many a mind. This extra language helps contextualize it to allow for appropriate diversity of loving EXPRESSION.
Fine. | | Back to Top | | |
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