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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/12/2006 11:16 PM (GMT -6) |   | Here's a question:
What would your life look like if you NEVER JUDGED YOURSELF for any reason?
A person judges something when they
1) assume the authority over that which they judge,
2) evaluate what they judge by criteria that seems appropriate to the judger
3) attributes either positive or negative worth to the judged based upon the "verdict" of the judgment.
So, basically when a person judges themselves, they usually hold themselves to certain standards and then allocate PERSONAL INTERNAL WORTH based upon how well or poorly they held to those self-set standards. This leads to either various forms of self-condemnation or self-righteousness.
So, my friends...
What would you life look like if you NEVER, EVER judged yourself for any reason?
How would you feel?
What would you think about yourself?
Really live in this question.
Really create a picture in your mind what this would look like...and describe it. Share your thoughts! Oh, and in case you didn't know.. The state of UNCONDITIONALLY LOVING ONESELF...is when all self-judgment is rooted out...and the self is accepted and positively valued "just because"!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/12/2006 11:19:03 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/13/2006 5:47 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't know Namaste. Aren't we the best ones to judge ourselves? If we didn't judge ourselves how would we deal with the logs in our eyes? Maybe I don't think of judging in the negative terms you describe here. I mean "judging" isn't a bad thing... God is good and God Judges, right? He just judges rightly...
What do you make of this:
1Cor. 11: 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 but if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
blessings sacred one,
love
selah
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 6:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
I don't know Namaste. Aren't we the best ones to judge ourselves? If we didn't judge ourselves how would we deal with the logs in our eyes? Maybe I don't think of judging in the negative terms you describe here. I mean "judging" isn't a bad thing... God is good and God Judges, right? He just judges rightly...
This is what I've been thinking about.
There is no LOGICAL reason why we should judge anyone, even ourselves. Only God has the ability and authority to judge anyone.
1) We are finite.
We don't see all of the requisite material to make an accurate judgment about a person's worth. We just don't have all the data. Even if we just focus on ourselves, there is SO MUCH that we don't know about ourselves...that we still wouldn't have the requisite data to make an appropriate judgment.
2) We are in degrees of despair.
Even if we did have all the data, we are still in degrees of despair ourselves. This means that some of our perceptions and evaluations will be skewwed by the despair.
3) We cannot confer binding worth.
Only God can declare something's true worth...and confer said worth upon that thing. We don't have that power. The best that we can do is to have our own evaluation of something...and we usually try to IMPOSE that view on others.
The ONLY being who would have all the data needed to make an accurate assessment...AND who is completely despair-free...AND who, by nature of being themselves, CAN confer binding worth...is God. This is why only God is fit to judge. Not us.
And we still haven't figured this out. Which is why we end up condemning ourselves and others...or exonerating ourselves and others.
Think about it, Selah. Remember SK. Basically what despair involves is JUDGEMENT. People are despairing over something, remember? They are despairing over themselves. All this is is a form of holding oneself to an self-imagined or self-validated "ideal" self...and judging oneself from that position. Despair is rooted out when we no longer judge ourselves according to standards...and we leave the judgment to God.
Now, I can see the question:
"If we are not to judge, then how are we to be aware of ourselves in a meaningful way?"
We are to be WISE...meaning discerning about reality. We can think critically and wholistically about things. This includes our own inner states of being and the environment around us. We become present to ourselves and, in doing so, possibly discover things about ourselves that are not helpful towards certain aims that we have for our lives. We can then use those times of awareness as "points of repentence" and learning opportunities. We use our ability to perceive and evaluate to navigate reality appropriately...NOT to try to have a platform to assume the ability to confer worth on something else. Even though we realize our finitude and despair, we realize that we are wired to understand reality to the degrees that we are able. But this "darkened mirror" is STILL not good enough for us to judge. It is one thing to have healthy responses and evaluations of reality that are used to form "principles" of helpful and unhelpful living, given a certain telos. It is something else completely to declare, decrease, or increase something's WORTH due to one's own assumed authority and appropriateness to judge!
Something else. What does being unconditionally loved by God even MEAN if it's possible for us to LOWER or RAISE our own sense of personal worth by what WE judge our standards to be? Receiving unconditional love from God is saying that you understand that your essential worth is NOT DETERMINED by anything that you say, do, or think. Our positive worth to God is in our being created in God's image...and NO human is worth more or less than any other human. So who are we to judge ourselves by any standard to the point that we implicitly or explicitly grant ourselves the power to GRANT WORTH (either positive or negative) beyond the worth that God has already assigned?
I don't see how a person could believe in God's unconditional love and the unconditionally conferred positive worth that comes with that love...but at the same time believe that they can LOWER or RAISE their own sense of personal worth because of adherence to certain held standards.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 6:49:15 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | And do you know who I think the WORST PEOPLE at judging themselves are...temperment wise?
IDEALISTS (NFs)
Idealists by definition create "ideals" for themselves and the world...and constantly JUDGE themselves and the world according to those ideals. It is very hard for them to just BE...and navigate reality as it is. Since they are always trying to "find themselves" or "be integrous with oneself", they are always setting judgements in order to know WHEN they have found themselves...or WHEN they've deviated from being integrous. In other words, in trying to become the ideal self...they DENY who they actually are...and often fall into intensified anxiety (despair) over themselves!
This is why this group (INFJ, ENFJ, INFP, ENFP) have a very hard time just ACCEPTING REALITY AS IT IS, including themselves.
They are constantly judging reality according to THEIR perceptions of what the future SHOULD be like. It's one thing to healthily move towards one's telos. It's another thing to JUDGE ONESELF because they are not what THEY think they should be.
This is why some of your most angst filled people are IDEALISTS.
Interesting, huh?
Can you testify to this, Selah? (INFP!)
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 6:40:34 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 6:38 AM (GMT -6) | | This is what I imagine when I think about someone killing all self-judgment.
Basically, they tell their superego to shut the hell up...and they decide to rely on discernment, wisdom, and God's grace. They never self-allocate worth (negative or positive) FOR ANY REASON...because they only RECEIVE their unconditionally-given positive worth from who they know themselves to be in God.
They would take mistakes GLADLY as opportunities for repentance...not as opportunities for guilt, shame, and self-doubt.
They would understand that they are GROWING and that there is no growth-related standard by which they should allocate worth to themselves...such that they should feel bad about themselves for not having MORE growth.
They would NEVER experience guilt, shame, self-pity, self-doubt, self-condemnation, self-righteousness, santimony, pride, or anything like that.
They would get ALL of the personal worth from their relationship to the unconditionally loving God.
This is what I'm going for in my life.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 6:46:41 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/13/2006 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah beat me to the 1Cor. passage.
Sometimes, Nemaste, you jump into a subject or issue, like "judgment," with a particular misexercise or misapplication of the thing in mind. Then you just dismiss the whole thing. But once you get to unpacking it a bit (as you did here) you zero in on the specific misapplication or misuse, which is good because that leaves us free to discuss other legitimate ways we need to judge ourselves. You and 'words'! Gosh!
We ought to judge ourselves in some legitimate way--judge = discriminate, evaluate, adjust in light of, etc. That's exactly what YOU'RE doing when you, on the basis of reasons 1, 2, 3, decide not to judge yourself! What we don't want to do is base our self-worth and identity upon our judgments of ourselves. We ought to judge/discriminate/evaluate where we are FROM a position of acceptance and worth in Christ, not TOWARD that position.
What d'ya think?
Tom
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/13/2006 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Be quiet! No one is listening to this nonsense!!!
you know me so well ...hahaha
Namaste said...
And do you know who I think the WORST PEOPLE at judging themselves are...temperment wise?
IDEALISTS (NFs)...
This is why this group (INFJ, ENFJ, INFP, ENFP) have a very hard time just ACCEPTING REALITY AS IT IS, including themselves.
They are constantly judging reality according to THEIR perceptions of what the future SHOULD be like. It's one thing to healthily move towards one's telos. It's another thing to JUDGE ONESELF because they are not what THEY think they should be.
This is why some of your most angst filled people are IDEALISTS.
Interesting, huh?
Can you testify to this, Selah? (INFP!)
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 7:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Selah beat me to the 1Cor. passage.
Sometimes, Nemaste, you jump into a subject or issue, like "judgment," with a particular misexercise or misapplication of the thing in mind. Then you just dismiss the whole thing. But once you get to unpacking it a bit (as you did here) you zero in on the specific misapplication or misuse, which is good because that leaves us free to discuss other legitimate ways we need to judge ourselves. You and 'words'! Gosh!
We ought to judge ourselves in some legitimate way--judge = discriminate, evaluate, adjust in light of, etc. That's exactly what YOU'RE doing when you, on the basis of reasons 1, 2, 3, decide not to judge yourself! What we don't want to do is base our self-worth and identity upon our judgments of ourself. We ought to judge/discriminate/evaluate where we are FROM a position of acceptance and worth in Christ, not TOWARD that position.
What d'ya think?
Words have POWER, Tom. You know this by now, right?
Since we are talking Scripture...
1 Corinthians 4:1-5
This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of people's hearts. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
Self-examination or self-evalution is NOT the same thing as judging oneself.
Ask SK.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 7:37:11 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Now Nemaste, what was you comment about NFs if not a judgment of NFs! Ha.
Nope. This is VERY descriptive of the case. It's in Myers-Briggs books, dude. I'm never allocated any worth with my statements or said it was WRONG. I just said what was. That's why Selah said what she said. My preferences DO fall into this category. That's why I know experientially as well as just from the books.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 7:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm...
Let's just stick to the script. You have the 1 Corinthians passage I just placed. What does it mean to you?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2006 7:47 AM (GMT -6) | | | When people USUALLY say something like "Don't JUDGE me!" or "I'm feeling JUDGED."...
What do YOU think they mean?
It's amazing to me how you want to keep certain words in play that MAY NOT be very helpful. First evil...NOW judging. What is with this, man? 
You say..."I mean, it's definitely recognize by the rest of the English speaking world."
In the North American context, isn't the term "judge" USUALLY though of in juridical terms? Meaning the RIGHTNESS or WRONGNESS of something according to some standard? Where one feels like they have to EXONERATE THEMSELVES before someone else?
Could THIS be why people don't like being "judged" here? Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 8:10:52 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 10/13/2006 7:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: ...what was you comment about NFs if not a judgment of NFs! Ha.
Namaste: Nope. This is VERY descriptive of the case. It's in Myers-Briggs books, dude. I'm never allocated any worth with my statements or said it was WRONG.
Tom: This proves my point. Funny. You've got ONE application of the word "judge" in your head, one tiny spot that constitutes the whole semantic field of the word, and it's the bad, ungly, demeaning of worth and value (either in others or one's self). I recognize this is "a" use of the word. But that's not the use of the word I had in mind when I asked "haven't you judged NFs?" (of course I was teasing too). But I was thinking of judge in the sense of "rendering an evaluation regarding what a thing is or isn't." To do that we 'judge', critically. We scope out the lay of the land and "pick" or "choose" to "define" a thing. Sometimes...sometimes...all "to judge" means is "to define." Sometimes it means "to evaluate." These ARE legitimate, established uses of the word.
Sure, if someone says, "I'm feeling judge by you!" that defines the context and I'll be careful to point out that don't question the person's value or want to ground their value in performance or behavior. Sure.
Bro, it's BECAUSE language is SO important to me that I'm critical and suspicious of those who want to make accross the board changes to it. Lanugae is a living web of relations. You can't make a change here without it affecting something over there. I'm a P! I like to think things through, especially permanent language changes, and not just do it because it provides some immediate emotional rest. Language is HUGE.
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 10/13/2006 8:01:02 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Tell you what, Tom. If YOU feel like trying to keep the word "judge" is worth it to you...please be my guest.
You can keep the word "evil" for that matter, too. 
Personally, I feel that using the terms "discern", "examine", or "evaluate" do a MUCH BETTER JOB of not falling into traps then the word "judge". But that's just me, I guess.
Now, let's answer the REAL question.
How would your life be if you never ever questioned or prescribed your own self-worth for any reason? If you never judged yourself IN THAT WAY?
Man...
Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 8:08:24 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 8:04 AM (GMT -6) | | | I should have known. INTPs often tend to be the consummate grammarians and lexicographers...heh..
While you are at it...please bring back the REAL meanings of the swastika and "racist"
I guess we may as well keep ALL ranges of meanings open, regardless to what...right?  | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 10/13/2006 9:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Namaste-
Let’s slow down and walk about for the word “judgment” for a sec. Let me try to describe where I’m coming from. You know: INTP, right? OK.
Forgetting technical vocabulary, you and I totally agree on substance. We agree on the ‘territory’. Our disagreements, when we have them, are almost always ‘map’ issue. And here it’s the same. We agree that a person’s intrinsic worth and value are grounded in the free choice of God to make us his image bearers and to unconditionally love us. That applies to Hitler, the BTK Killer, and milkmen who executive elementary school Amish girls. God doesn’t love us because we’re valuable (= because we perform well). We’re valuable to God because God loves us. Even better, God’s love of us just his free and unconditional choice to let us mean something inestimably worthwhile to him. Cool. We’re totally on with this.
We also totally agree that our job with respect to ourselves is just resting in this love, being unified with God in the enjoyment of unconditional love. That’s a radical way to view ourselves. And our job with respect to others is to view them the same way and to do whatever we can to see that they view themselves this way too.
On substance we’re agreed.
Now, regarding language, I think we’d agree too that we ought to work hard, really hard and carefully, to study people and culture to find the best way to express this, the best way to articulate it, so that people have the maximum opportunity to grasp it and engage it. I really DO want to do this. So do you.
It’s just that you (I think) tend to make quick sweeping changes in language based (what seems to me to be) a slightly more emotional evaluation of a limited number of situations than I tend to make. But hey, maybe I’m not seeing it clearly either.
Let me repeat something I said in our discussion of the term “evil.” I don’t think we ought EVER to nail ourselves down where ‘language’ is concerned. There IS NO one right way to articulate things. I admitted there that “evil” might not work for some people. But I thought (and still think) that for most people there’s enough right understanding of the territory reflected in their use of the term to make it a useful map. But what works for people is something we’ll have to decide as we converse with them and listen to the Spirit. Remember the way you like to say the final arbiter in so much of this is “Be led by the Spirit”? Well, there ya go. I’d suggest doing this with language too. Let’s study our times, understand them, know how language is being used, and then be led by the Spirit. If after ALL of that you still think there’s no conceivable use for the term “evil” or “judge” where persons are concerned, fine. I support you. But if after that I think these terms might get the point across well or communicate something true, then I’ll go with that. I just don’t see how we can ever box ourselves in when it comes to language. That just seems to deny what language is and how it works.
OK then. Think about people who say, as you mentioned, “Hey, don’t judge me!” Just take this as an example. Is it even the case that the same REALITY stands behind every such expression? I’m sure not. In fact, people usually respond this way to our having said something about a particular behavior being ‘wrong’, ‘bad’, ‘not good,’ etc. We probably didn’t even use the word “judge” ourselves, but they come back with it. Cool. I’m sure sometimes, a lot of times, we really were talking down at people, making them feel as if their worth or value to God was measured by how good or bad they performed measured against OUR standards. We agree that we want to avoid making people feel this way.
But, Namaste, it’s also true that a lot of times “Don’t judge me” is nothing more than a rejection of the convicing presence of the Spirit. They really ARE being “convicted of sin and judgment to come” (as Jesus said the Spirit would do when he came to the world). But since WE’RE the ones providing the occasion in which the Spirit convicts others, they direct their despair at us. I know for a fact that a lot times people told me to stop “judging” them or coming across as judgmental when I wasn’t being judgmental (in my tone, vocabulary, or anything else). Heck, you can even use all the right words—beauty, love, value, God’s loving intentions, etc.—to describe the kind of life God wants for somebody and they’ll still come back with “Who the hell are you to judge what’s beautiful or not in my life? Go F* yourself.”
Vocabulary changes ARE sometimes important and necessarty. But let’s be led by the Spirit. No one map change is gonna always work for everybody. Sometimes the responses people make aren’t due to our doing a bad job or picking the wrong words. Sometimes we’ll get it all right and people will still misconstrue and reject us.
There’s no question in my mind that “evil” is still a good word to use. And there’s no question in my mind that personal situations, if not the only context, are at least the primary context in which the word “evil” even has any meaning. But I’m not an F, I’m a T, right? I do words as a T. I think them. I examine them. I tend NOT to “feel” them. So I want to stay open to what you’re saying. I’m ‘thinking’ about it!
about the word ‘judge’ in personal situations, I can think of some occasions where it is and can be used without implying that the worth or value of the person is in the balance. But I agree it can often miscommunicate. So what do I advocate? Well, I don’t advocate a ban on the word. I advocate being led by the Spirit.
Better?
-----------------------
Namaste: How would your life be if you never ever questioned or prescribed your own self-worth for any reason? If you never judged yourself IN THAT WAY?
Tom: I would--and DO!--feel wonderful! Like I said, we agree on the substance of the territory. But I'm able to not judge myself in this way and still employ the word "judge" in other ways.
Tom
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Similitude
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| Posted 10/13/2006 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: Now, let's answer the REAL question.
How would your life be if you never ever questioned or prescribed your own self-worth for any reason? If you never judged yourself IN THAT WAY?
Jeff: I don't think humans think of the "worth" apart from the idea of "fitted to." Worth/fittingness imply a future. We've already discussed the functional bi-furcation of God with respect to experiencing God's love. There's no way around this. There are future consequences of actions. This is all that is ultimately considered in judgement. If I burn myself with fire, I judge from that experience that such an action should not be taken by me in the future. Because I'm a sentient being seeking pleasure. And the pain of fire is displeasureable. If, on the other hand, I take a course of action that will result in suffering with Christ, I do so because I have judged that my highest pleasure is attainable by doing just that.
I think most of us use "judge" in just this way. So when some reads the gospels and sees Christ as judgmental, they're saying they see Jesus as claiming to be more knowledgeable about what will lead to our greatest well-being over time. Those same people will make their own judgments about that very question. They just might think they're in a better position to know what's good for them than did Jesus. And for that reason, they will think Jesus was arrogant or presumptuous. I think it's pretty much that simple.
All the other language, to my mind, is dealing with specifics. If I'm accidentally caught naked in front of people, I might say "I was so embarrased." Someone else might say "I was so ashamed." In either case, we can be simply describing the specific emotional feeling that attended the experience. But most people do not assume that means their true value as a person was diminished.
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 10:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Forgetting technical vocabulary, you and I totally agree on substance. We agree on the ‘territory’. Our disagreements, when we have them, are almost always ‘map’ issue. And here it’s the same. We agree that a person’s intrinsic worth and value are grounded in the free choice of God to make us his image bearers and to unconditionally love us. That applies to Hitler, the BTK Killer, and milkmen who executive elementary school Amish girls. God doesn’t love us because we’re valuable (= because we perform well). We’re valuable to God because God loves us. Even better, God’s love of us just his free and unconditional choice to let us mean something inestimably worthwhile to him. Cool. We’re totally on with this.
We also totally agree that our job with respect to ourselves is just resting in this love, being unified with God in the enjoyment of unconditional love. That’s a radical way to view ourselves. And our job with respect to others is to view them the same way and to do whatever we can to see that they view themselves this way too.
On substance we’re agreed.
This seems certain.
*************************
Tom:
Now, regarding language, I think we’d agree too that we ought to work hard, really hard and carefully, to study people and culture to find the best way to express this, the best way to articulate it, so that people have the maximum opportunity to grasp it and engage it. I really DO want to do this. So do you.
It’s just that you (I think) tend to make quick sweeping changes in language based (what seems to me to be) a slightly more emotional evaluation of a limited number of situations than I tend to make. But hey, maybe I’m not seeing it clearly either.
This makes sense.
This is the difference between an INTP and an ENFJ. I may think you take too long sometimes to see and grant what I believe to be obvious. You may think I'm rushing too fast in thinking something to be obvious...when there may be more tentativeness there than I seem to claim. I believe that there is a kernal of truth to both these beliefs.
I say "GO!". You say "WHOA!"
Tendencies....
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Tom:
Let me repeat something I said in our discussion of the term “evil.” I don’t think we ought EVER to nail ourselves down where ‘language’ is concerned. There IS NO one right way to articulate things. I admitted there that “evil” might not work for some people. But I thought (and still think) that for most people there’s enough right understanding of the territory reflected in their use of the term to make it a useful map. But what works for people is something we’ll have to decide as we converse with them and listen to the Spirit. Remember the way you like to say the final arbiter in so much of this is “Be led by the Spirit”? Well, there ya go. I’d suggest doing this with language too. Let’s study our times, understand them, know how language is being used, and then be led by the Spirit. If after ALL of that you still think there’s no conceivable use for the term “evil” or “judge” where persons are concerned, fine. I support you. But if after that I think these terms might get the point across well or communicate something true, then I’ll go with that. I just don’t see how we can ever box ourselves in when it comes to language. That just seems to deny what language is and how it works.
1)Hmmm...that's what I've been going by. Maybe not an exhaustive search on how many individual people groups use the word "evil" in what ways...but just paying attention to my surroundings and world affairs, etc. From what I understand, psychologists and other social science people have been claiming for a BIT now that the term "evil" may not be helpful to the human condition. From the little bit that I've seen and experienced in my life (this means the people that I've generally come accross in my experiences as well), the terms "evil" and "judge" seem to offer more heat than light to many situations.
2) Language can fall into and out of use. Certain terms can be empowered...depowered for a time...and even REpowered again. Just like cultural styles of clothing. Certain terms can also be so MISUSED on such a grand scale in the collective conscious (ie. the Swastika) that trying to reinterpret its use, I believe, will prove problematic. In the Age of the War on Terror, I would like to submit that the word EVIL has become even more unhelpful as a term...than when psychology FIRST started thinking about not using the term. Also, in after having a LONG history of juridical thinking, both culturally and religiously (Judeo-Christian influence), I am thinking the word "judge" also had a deep, pervading sentiment in the collective conscious of the North American mind. One that brings up thoughts of "good/bad", "right/wrong", "being condemned/being exonerated" I just think that there is more HELPFUL language at this point than the terms "evil" and "judging"
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Tom:
But, Namaste, it’s also true that a lot of times “Don’t judge me” is nothing more than a rejection of the convicing presence of the Spirit. They really ARE being “convicted of sin and judgment to come” (as Jesus said the Spirit would do when he came to the world). But since WE’RE the ones providing the occasion in which the Spirit convicts others, they direct their despair at us. I know for a fact that a lot times people told me to stop “judging” them or coming across as judgmental when I wasn’t being judgmental (in my tone, vocabulary, or anything else). Heck, you can even use all the right words—beauty, love, value, God’s loving intentions, etc.—to describe the kind of life God wants for somebody and they’ll still come back with “Who the hell are you to judge what’s beautiful or not in my life? Go F* yourself.”
Ok, Tom. If someone uses the term "Don't judge me!" when they are experiencing Holy Spirit conviction, what does that tell you about the way the individual and cultural understandings that MAY be pervading our environment about what people THINK "judgement" means. Shouldn't that impulse that we BOTH see people do...give us a hint that maybe that word is not very helpful. Maybe?
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Tom:
There’s no question in my mind that “evil” is still a good word to use. And there’s no question in my mind that personal situations, if not the only context, are at least the primary context in which the word “evil” even has any meaning. But I’m not an F, I’m a T, right? I do words as a T. I think them. I examine them. I tend NOT to “feel” them. So I want to stay open to what you’re saying. I’m ‘thinking’ about it!
about the word ‘judge’ in personal situations, I can think of some occasions where it is and can be used without implying that the worth or value of the person is in the balance. But I agree it can often miscommunicate. So what do I advocate? Well, I don’t advocate a ban on the word. I advocate being led by the Spirit.
Maybe it's just the people that I've talked to and been around...where I get my instincts about this from. I will say this, Tom. If YOU feel lead to use the words "evil" and "judge", you go right ahead. Do what you THINK is best. If God lead me to use those words, of course, I would. But from what I understand and according to my OWN GENERAL USAGE of language, I don't find the terms helpful...and with respect to my OWN GENERAL USAGE, I will not use the terms.
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Namaste: How would your life be if you never ever questioned or prescribed your own self-worth for any reason? If you never judged yourself IN THAT WAY?
Tom: I would--and DO!--feel wonderful! Like I said, we agree on the substance of the territory. But I'm able to not judge myself in this way and still employ the word "judge" in other ways.
Cool! I'm excited for you. What does is look like acted out in your life? How do you see things differently than before when you DID judge yourself? I'm assuming it's much more freeing and all..
Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 10:53:19 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2006 10:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Truth is, on one level we all make judgments about the usefulness or pleasure-yielding potential of behavior. But in favor of Mep...rats, Namaste's point, unbelievers rightly complain that believers push THEIR judgment of what's useful or pleasing on other people and come across as grounding a person's worth in her agreeing with us and behaving rightly, whereas the unbeliever is content to let people judge for themselves what's useful and pleasing and argues that we affirm a person's worth when we respect this 'right to judge for oneself'.
All this, I believe, is true. Not even God forces his perceptions on us trying to get us to behave in healthy ways. In this probationary period, God doesn't try to force the truth on us. God has given us the FREEDOM to "judge for ourselves" what WE think is healthy and live our those judgements...even to our detriment.
What I wonder about, though, is the 1 Corinthians 4 passage, where Paul talks about him NOT caring about the judgments of others...and that Paul does not even judge himself. AND right after that how he talks about having a "clear conscience". I think this is VERY significant. What do you think the significance is of this, Tom and Jeff?
Is it a HEALTHY, HELPFUL thing for us NOT to judge ourselves or anything else, like Paul says about himself?
And in that verse, what is the SENSE in which Paul uses the word "judge"?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's all-loving nature." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/13/2006 11:01:51 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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