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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
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   Posted 11/7/2006 2:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
I NEVER did say that God's ultimate telos is about the brotherhood/sista-hood of man per se. But it seems to me that a part of our becoming divinized unto Christlikeness via the Holy Spirit is as we exist both individually AND COLLECTIVELY. A part of what it means to participate in the divine life is to participate in it HARMONIOUSLY not just as individuals (being rightly related to MYSEL--my existance as a substance, the human person/being possessing an "it-selfness" a "presence-in-self";-) but as a human person/being possessing a "toward otherness" not only with myself and God but ALSO with a "toward otherness" between other fellow human persons.

Thus, I would define our personhood not only as substantiality but as one who lives in social solidarity with her fellow human beings and journeying historically through this material universe or cosmos toward her final supranatural destiny, in search of the infinite God who creates her.


1) I think that your description of "substance" is not helpful. When I am describing a reflexive spiritual relationship (a human spirit relating itself to itself in its relation), I am most certainly NOT describing a "substance" The self-self relationship is just as relational the self-other relationship.

2) To me, it makes more sense to say that human beings are disposed to relate to perceived and experienced human beings from the perspective of the perceiver's OWN humanness. (A form of this would be like "empathy" ) This CAN be human beings OTHER than the perceiver...or it can be the perceiver perceiving themselves.. I can be a PERSON as I understand myself as a human and relate to myself as such. Loving ONESELF. Now we can say that an important constitutive element of human dispositional reality is unfulfilled IF we don't interact with OTHER human beings. I'd completely agree with that. But the idea that the qualifications for human personhood are NOT MET if there is no connection with another human is problematic to me.
 
3) What does participating in the divine life COLLECTIVELY mean to you?  How is the Lord's Table or Communion involved, if at all?
 
 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 11/7/2006 7:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I had responded to this earlier, but a little boy erased it!  Yer dead meat son!  biggrin   

OK.  Ummm...let me say it like this.  First, I can't get on board with this idea of separating the self like you have done here.  Your "self-relating to itself" may be similar to my person possessing a "toward otherness.  It seems to me you need to take it more wholistically.  Regardless, every real being exists FIRST as a present in itself.  In the company of but not as a part of other existents.  True dat.  But this "presence-in-itself"  (the substantiality) at the level of personal being exists in two ways:  in the order of knowledge as self-consciousness and in the order of action as self-determination.  I deal mostly with the first one.

Now, self-consciousness as self awareness enables a personal being to be aware of itself as subject immediately present to itself from within and conscious of itself as the source of its own actions such that the person can MEANINGFULLY say, "I."  This ability to be "self-present" or self-conscious is considered primarily the function of the spirit and not the body such that we could say that in the higher form of spiritual being i.e. God and the angels, this self-presence is immediate and complete.  HOWEVER, in human beings it is less immediate.  Instead, it remains incomplete and must be activated from without, relying on the stimulation of the senses by the outside world of objects and existents.  That is, the explicit awakening to self-awareness as an "I" is therefore DEPENDENT on an "other" encountering us, to providing us with the "wake-up call" so to speak, by reaching out to us and calling us into an "I-Thou" relationship.

So all of this is to say that it seems that in order for the human self-presence to emerge, human beings cannot exist on their own; we need the outside world and particularly other persons before we even become self-conscious.  There is something misleading about the "self" in the "self-consciousness" (YOUR self relating to itself-"empathy") for we become conscious of others before we become conscious of ourselves.

And here's another thing.  This "self-consciousness?" in a human person continues on throughout one's whole life.  Which is to say that there is a progressive and incremental character to one's self-awareness as one journeys through life.  In a sense, because of the seemingly infinite and inexhaustible depth of the self, it can be said that not only are we naturally open to the Infinite Spirit of God, but we never really see ourselves as we really are.

As for participating in the divine life collectively?  This seems to me to be a eschatological question of "becoming."  That is, it seems to me that the church fathers describe a process of human development or actualization of human potentionals as "deifcation."  That is, humanity has a dynamic nature--an ongoing process.  A pilgrimage with a history beginning in immaturity and imperfection, and progressing throught various stages to greater and greater manifestations of the "image", until it is ultimately consummated in total "likeness" with God.  In communion John Zizioulas has some really cool things to say.  He says:

"the ontological question [of human personhood] is not answered by pointing to the "self-existent," to a being determined by its own boundaries, but to a being which in its ekstasis breaks through these boundaries in a movement of communion...It is not in its "self-existence." but in communion that this being is "itself" and thus is at all.  This communion does not threat personal particularity; it is constitutive of it." 

 

 


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 6/7/2007 8:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

It's interesting that Greg in this blog:  http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/06/reflections-at-two-thirds-point-of.html  intuitively articulates what I've tried to say here when he says:

First, we obviously board this train alone. And we obviously smash unpredictably into the great wall alone. But we can, if we choose, share large portions of our ride with others.

Kafka’s train can be experienced as a nightmare, or as a great adventure. And I’ve found that one of the main things that prevents the former and encourages the latter is riding with close friends. When shared with others, the very bizarreness of the ride becomes a force that binds us together at a profound level. And when this happens, the strangeness of the ride becomes something more beautiful than terrifying.

Reach out. Share the ride. Take risks. Make friends. Stay committed over the long haul.

 

 



Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 8/23/2007 9:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D, POW, you guys might be interested.  I wrote/adapted review on my blog about what we discussed here. 
 
 
 


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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