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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Pneuma: The Holy Spirit as Divine Reality Reflected in Humanity as "Femininity" | Forum Quick Jump
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/15/2006 6:40 PM (GMT -6) |   |
TGB said...
I'm not as up on the history of this as POW is, but I believe the filioque was first added to the Nicene Creed in AD 447 at the Synod of Toledo in Spain. But earlier than this, and in the East, a regional council in Persia in AD 410 introduced a form of the filioque when it said the Spirit proceeds from the Father "and from the Son." This is a genuinely Eastern Syrian faith, not an invention of the Pope or of Western Christianity. Interesting.
Hmmm.
Tom The "and from the Son" is an ECONOMICAL statement, and a very good one at that. But it belongs IN A DIFFERENT PARAGRAPH from statements of origin, like begotten or proceeds.
The Spanish statement was based on Augustine, where it was economic.
It was thrust on the Roman Church by military power by the Franks, after a hundred years of Roman resistance. The Vatican has now owned up to that.
Maximus the Confessor was working on how to build unity in East and West coming to mutual terms with the filioque. But that was WITH recognition of the difference between making an economic statement and one of origin.
That's the facts.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/15/2006 6:49 PM (GMT -6) | |
Starkman said...
All we're doing is seeing are relationship corollaries between the Triune God and His creation... Right you are, Starky.
I get really concerned when I see enthusiasm push people to ignore workbench safety.
When one keeps reminding oneself that their are "corollaries" being drawn -- like the fact that we are "created after the image of Christ" while *only* the Son IS the exact image of the Father -- that there is a one-way to the flow.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/17/2006 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | | JAROSLAV PELIKAN: THE FILIOQUE
An essay written by this ex-Lutheran scholar before his recent conversion to Orthodoxy.
From his book THE MELODY OF THEOLOGY: A PHILOSOPHICAL DICTIONARY (Harvard U. Press)1988
"If there is a special circle of the inferno described by Dante reserved for historians of theology, the principal homework assigned to that subdivision of hell for at least the first several eons of eternity may well be the thorough study of all the treatises--in Latin, Greek, Church Slavonic, and various modern languages--devoted to the inquiry: Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father only, as Eastern Christendom contends, or from both the Father and the Son (ex Patre Filioque), as the Latin Church teaches? Futile or even presumptuous though it may seem to pry into such arcane matters within the inscrutable life of the Godhead, the problem of the Filioque or "double procession," in the framework of the total doctrine of the Trinity, manages to touch on many of the most central issues of theology and to display, more effectively than any other of the "questions in dispute" (quaestiones disputatae), how fundamental and far-reaching are the differences between the Orthodox Christian East and the West, whether Roman Catholic or Protestant.
. . .
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 11/17/2006 6:38:50 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/19/2006 1:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Metaphysical Gordian Knot:
Is it the case that the ONE Holy Spirit of the Triune God NECESSARILY proceeds from the Father...OR...it is case that the ONE Holy Spirit of God of the Triune God NECESSARILY proceeds from both the Father and the Son?
Trinitarian Process Metaphysical Response:
Yes!
(Slice!)
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
Everything that will be well...is well already! Post Edited (Namaste) : 11/19/2006 12:59:31 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/19/2006 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't think you can know this. Nobody can.
QUOTE:
Time to invoke "Friday night at seven o'clock" rules!
2. No discussions about things that just came to you *until* you have lived them in your life for two weeks, and know them *that* way, and have put them into practice in your life.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 11/19/2006 8:37:21 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/19/2006 6:12 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Economy of grace: John 20:212f RSV
+ Jesus said to them again, "Peace be unto you.
+ As the Father has sent me, even so send I you."
+ And when he had said this, he breathed on them
+ and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
Distinctive origin: John 15:26 RSV
+ But when the Counsellor comes,
+ whom I shall send to you from the Father,
+ even the Spirit of truth,
+ who proceeds from the Father,
+ he will bear witness to me.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/19/2006 6:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's an "economic" statement:
St. Gregory the Wonderworker wrote a Creed, around 265, from which
the following is taken:
> One God, the Father of the living Word, of subsistent
> Wisdom and Power, and of the Eternal Image. Perfect Begetter of
> the Perfect, Father of the only begotten Son.
> One Lord, Only of Only, God of God, Image and Likeness of
> the Godhead, Efficient Word, Wisdom comprehending the
> constitution of the universe, and Power shaping all creation.
> Genuine Son of Genuine Father, Invisible of Invisible, and
> Incorruptible of Incorruptible, and Immortal of Immortal, and
> Eternal of Eternal.
> And one Holy Spirit, having substance of God, and who is
> manifested [to men, that is,]* through the Son; Image of the
> Son, Perfect of the Perfect; Life, the Cause of living; Holy
> Fountain; Sanctity, the Dispenser of Sanctification; in whom is
> manifested God the Father, who is above all and in all, and God
> the Son, who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and
> eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/19/2006 6:28 PM (GMT -6) | | | And another "economic" statement:
St Epiphanius of Salamis (315?-12 May 403), a scholar much admired
by St. Jerome, wrote in 374 in his ANKYROTOS (The Man Well
Anchored):
> For the Only-Begotten Himself calls Him "the Spirit of the
> Father," and says of Him that "He proceeds from the Father,"
> and "will receive of mine," so that He is reckoned as not being
> foreign to the Father nor to the Son, but is of their same
> substance, of the same Godhead; He is Spirit divine,... of
> God, and He is God. For he is Spirit of God, Spirit of the
> Father and Spirit of the Son, not by some kind of synthesis,
> like soul and body in us, but in the midst of Father and Son,
> of the Father and of the Son, a third by appellation. ...
> The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the
> Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son; and neither is the
> Son created nor is the Spirit created.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/19/2006 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | | And another distinctly "economic" statement, dispite the fact that the word "proceed" is used. (This is, after all, Cyril, and early.)
St. Cyril of Alexandria (probably around 424), in his THESAURUS (Treasury of the
Holy and Consubstantial Trinity), he said:
> Since the Holy Spirit when He is in us effects our being
> conformed to God, and He actually proceeds from Father and Son,
> it is abundantly clear that He is of the divine essence, in it
> in essence and proceeding from it. [Thesis 34]
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/19/2006 6:40 PM (GMT -6) | | | And another:
Pope St. Damasus I, in a statement that has been preserved in the
Acts of the Council of Rome of 382, writes:
> The Holy Spirit is not of the Father only, or the Spirit of the
> Son only, but He is the Spirit of the Father and the Son. For
> it is written, "In anyone loves the world, the Spirit of the
> Father is not in him (1 John 2:15)"; and again it is written:
> "If anyone, however, does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is
> none of His (Romans 8:9)". When the Father and the Son are
> named in this way, the Holy Spirit is understood, of whom the
> Son Himself says in the Gospel, that the Holy Spirit "proceed
> from the Father (John 15:26)," and that "He shall receive of
> mine and shall announce it to you (John 16:14)."
Economy.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/20/2006 9:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Some things...
IF via negativa is ALL that we can really do, with respect to the inner-trinitarian life, is say nothing...then the process metaphysic goes COMPLETELY out the window. Whiteheadean and Hartshornean process metaphysic deals with God's internal nature, because God is the chief exemplificiation of all metaphysical truth. I don't see any real problem with that...ESPECIALLY if the glorification of God is ENHANCED by our discussion rather than diminished. If kataphatic theologizing (via our method) is doing nothing but glorifying the Triune God through God's work in the world and actually ALIGNING WITH certain traditional affirmations...what is the REAL problem here?
I could be wrong, but this is sounding like a personal problem to me. Again, I could be wrong.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
Everything that will be well...is well already! | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 11/20/2006 2:47 PM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...
POW's point seems to be that talk of the inner-trinitarian life is be definition off-limits. You can only say what it is NOT, never what it is.
Tom We can know God personally. God is knowable, personally. But constructing ideas about God that we don't first "know" is impious, and dangerous.
As to your ideas, I have another notion -- a gut feeling: If you take them too far you will probably discover a weakening of the Father to dependence on the Spirit, and then the Son will become a kind of Arian creation.
Namaste said...
Let me ask this question.
B., I really want to know your true concern here. I'm assuming that there is a danger that you see that impacts the growth of the Body, individually and/or corporately, and the transformation process into Christlikeness. I'd really like to see the concern that you have so that I can be fully aware of it.
Thanks! Above.
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 11/20/2006 1:52:28 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/20/2006 3:22 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
We can know God personally. God is knowable, personally. But constructing ideas about God that we don't first "know" is impious, and dangerous.
and...
Glorification is personal participation in the Grace of the Holy Spirit: transformation. Its not just good good public relations and reputation.
My brother and friend,
All of my ideas are coming from a heart being transformed by the Grace of the Holy Spirit. And that's real. UTTERLY TRANSFORMED! I think that's one of the reasons I've been "testifying". I'm literally seeing the cessation of existence of my old ways of thinking. I am becoming a new person in Christ...on the real. I have the same memories, gifts, and talents, but I have a different perspective on reality...and that's WHAT we are!. Therefore, I am changed through Christ.
Just letting you know.
***************************
POW:
As to your ideas, I have another notion -- a gut feeling: If you take them too far you will probably discover a weakening of the Father to dependence on the Spirit, and then the Son will become a kind of Arian creation.
Ok, B. Just check this out. 
The trinitarian process metaphysic states that it is NOT POSSIBLE to conceive of the Father WITHOUT the Son. The Son is the self-communication that COMPLETES the dispositional tendency of the Father. God is NECESSARILY triune because of the INSEPARABLE relationships involved between Father, Son, and Spirit. All are co-eternal!
But Arius may have been onto something. (gasp!)
Actually, two things...
1) It makes sense that the Son was an OUTCOME of the Father's logically prior actuality. Only Begotten COMES FROM the Unbegotten. Therefore, if one were to ABSTRACT THINGS, and just look at LOGICAL SUCESSION...Arianism would be right, insofar as the Son only exists because of the actualization of the Father's disposition. In terms of logical priority, the Father is ultimately pre-eminent.
2) It does make sense to say that the HUMAN BEING who was "Jesus" was INDEED a created being. In other words, Jesus was incarnated into CONTINGENT EXISTENCE as a human. And therefore, was subject to all of the dispositional tendencies that affected contingent existence, particularly human beings.
Once again, we have a tremendous both/and.
The Son is UNDOUBTEDLY the co-eternal with the Father! Indeed there is no metaphysical way to conceive of the eternal Three Divine Persons apart from each other. God is a PERPETUAL MOTION of life transfer and beautiful experience.
and yet...
The Son LOGICALLY proceeded from the Father as a perspective of the necessary truine being (via the Father's self-reflection)...AND was also incarnated into contingent existence...and became a MEMBER OF CREATION.
So, Jesus is the ONLY BEING IN ALL CREATION about whom we can say that was ETERNAL and TEMPORAL, both CREATOR and CREATED in one being, unmixed, unconfused.
Yeah...
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
Everything that will be well...is well already! | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/20/2006 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Clearing the air...hopefully.
There are TWO dimensions to the Son's existence: necessary and contingent.
The Son is the Son of God, meaning that at ALL TIMES he is the express representation of God. This is the necessary existence of the Son.
The Son is also the Son of Humanity (Son of Man), meaning that the Son has fully become a member of the human race, in all of it's humanness. This is the contingent existence of the Son.
This is what I'm seeing thus far...:
1) The Son IS currently both the Son of God and the Son of Humanity forevermore. However, there was a time when the eternal Son of God was NOT the Son of Humanity, with respect to taking upon himself actual human, contingent existence.
2) The Son, being the express representation of the Father, is LOGICALLY CONSEQUENT of the Father (who has primordial actual and dispositional reality.) Therefore, it is true logically that the Son "came to be" because of the Father's previous actuality and disposition to self-communicate. Again, this is NOT the same thing as saying that the Son isn't co-eternal with the Father. Indeed, the Son IS co-eternal with the Father! We are talking order of logical succession. | | Back to Top | | |
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