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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 5:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Do you remember, D., people on this site speaking of "perichoresis" as if it was "suffering love" between "personalities" of the Trinity? It was a mild form of tri-theism.
 
I googled up "perichoresis" and "coinherence" and will spend a bit of time reading what I got. I've always found "coinherence" to be less slippery of a word for us American speakers.
 
Coinherence implies motion without motion -- as distinct from motion that changes. It better befits God's eternity.
 
 


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 6:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(praying for a sick family member...I'm rather subdued)


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 6:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I ONLY SKIMMED THIS. BUT READ about ATHANASIAS HERE:
 
 

The Coinherence

[perichoresis], circumincessio or coinherence of the Divine Three with each other, is the test at once against Arianism and Tritheism. Arius denies it in his Thalia, [anepimiktoi heautois hai hypostaseis]. It is the point of doctrine in which Eusebius so seriously fails. Vid. art. Eusebius. When Gibbon called this doctrine "perhaps the deepest and darkest corner of the whole theological abyss," he made as irrelevant and feeble a remark as could fall from an able man; as if any Catholic pretended that it was on any side of it comprehensible, and as if this was not the very enunciation in which the incomprehensibility lies; as we profess in the Creed, "neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam separantes." This doctrine is not the deepest part of the whole, but it is the whole, other statements being in fact this in other shapes. Each of the Three who speak to us from heaven is simply, and in the full sense of the word, God, yet there is but one God; this truth, as a statement, is enunciated most intelligibly when we say the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, being one and the same Spirit and Being, are in each other, which is the doctrine of the [perichoresis].

"They next proceed," says Athanasius, "to disparage our Lord's words, I in the Father and the Father in Me, saying 'How can the One be contained in the {73} Other and the Other in the One?' &c.; and this state of mind is consistent with their perverseness, who think God to be material, and understand not what is True Father and True Son ... When it is said, I in the Father and the Father in Me, They are not therefore, as these suppose, discharged into Each Other, filling the One the Other, as in the case of empty vessels, so that the Son fills the emptiness of the Father and the Father that of the Son, and Each of Them by Himself is not complete and perfect, (for this is proper to bodies, and therefore the mere assertion of it is full of impiety,) for the Father is full and perfect, and the Son is the Fulness of Godhead. Nor again, as God, by coming into the Saints, strengthens them, is He also thus in the Son. For He is Himself the Father's Power and Wisdom, and, by partaking ([metochei]) of Him, things generate are sanctified in the Spirit; but the Son Himself is not Son by participation ([metousiai], vid. art. Arian Tenets, supr. pp. 39-42), but is the Father's proper Offspring. Nor again is the Son in the Father, in the sense of the passage, In Him we live and move and have our being; for He, as being from the Fountain of the Father, is the Life, in which all things are both quickened and consist; for the Life does not live in Life, else it would not be Life, but rather He gives life to all things." Orat. iii. § 1. And again: "The Father is in the Son, since the Son is what is from the Father and proper to Him, as in the radiance the sun, and in the word the thought, and in the stream the fountain: for whoso thus contemplates the Son, contemplates what belongs to the {74} Father's Substance, and knows that the Father is in the Son. For whereas the essential character ([eidos]) and Godhead of the Father is the Being of the Son, it follows that the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son." ibid. § 3.

In accordance with the above, Thomassin observes that by the mutual coinherence or indwelling of the Three Blessed Persons is meant "not a commingling as of material liquids, nor as of soul with body, nor as the union of our Lord's Godhead and humanity, but it is such that the whole power, life, substance, wisdom, essence, of the Father, should be the very essence, substance, wisdom, life, and power of the Son." de Trin. 28, 1. S. Cyril adopts Athan.'s language to express this doctrine. "The Son in one place says, that He is in the Father and has the Father again in Him; for what is simply proper ([idion]) to the Father's substance, by nature coming to the Son, shows the Father in Him," in Joan. p. 105. "One is contemplated in the other, and is truly, according to the connatural and consubstantial." de Trin. vi. p. 621. "He has in Him the Son, and again is in the Son, because of the identity of substance." in Joan. p. 168. Vid. art. Trinity; also, Spirit of God.

The [perichoresis] is the test of orthodoxy, as regards the Holy Trinity, against Arianism. This is seen clearly in the case of Eusebius, whose language approaches to Catholic more nearly than that of Arians in general. After all his strong assertions, the question recurs, Is our Lord a distinct being from God, as we are, or not? he answers in the affirmative, vid. {75} infra. art. Eusebius, whereas Catholics hold that He is literally and numerically one with the Father, and therefore His Person dwells in the Father's Person by an ineffable unity. And hence the strong language of Pope Dionysius, supr. vol. i. p. 45, "the Holy Ghost must repose and dwell in God," [emphilochorein toi theoi kai endiaitasthai]. And hence the strong figure of S. Jerome (in which he is followed by S. Cyril, Thesaur. p. 51), "Filius locus est Patris, sicut et Pater locus est Filii." in Ezek. iii. 12. Hence Athan. contrasts creatures, who are [en memerismenois topois], with the Son. vid. Serap. iii. 4. Accordingly, one of the first symptoms of reviving orthodoxy in the second school of Semi-Arians is the use, in the Macrostich Creed, of language of this character, viz., "All the Father embosoming the Son," they say, "and all the Son hanging and adhering to the Father, and alone resting on the Father's breast continually," supr. vol. i. p. 107.

St. Jerome's figure above might seem inconsistent with S. Athanasius's disclaimer of material images; but Athan. only means that such illustrations cannot be taken literally, as if spoken of physical subjects. The Father is the [topos] or locus of the Son, because when we contemplate the Son in His fulness as [holos theos], we only view the Father as Him in whom God the Son is; our mind for the moment abstracting His Substance which is the Son from Him, and regarding Him merely as Father. Thus Athan. [ten theian ousian tou logou henomenen physei toi heautou patri]. in illud Omn. 4. It is, however, but a mode of speaking in theology, and not a real emptying of Godhead from the Father, {76} if such words may be used. Father and Son are both the same God, though really and eternally distinct from each other; and Each is full of the Other, that is, their Substance is one and the same. This is insisted on by S. Cyril: "We must not conceive that the Father is held in the Son as body in body, or vessel in vessel; ... for the One is in the Other." [hos en tautoteti tes ousias aparallaktoi, kai tei kata physin henoteti te kai homoioteti]. in Joan. p. 28. And by S. Hilary: "Material natures do not admit of being mutually in each other, of having a perfect unity of a nature which subsists, of the abiding nativity of the Only-begotten being inseparable from the verity of the Father's Godhead. To God the Only-begotten alone is this proper, and this faith attaches to the mystery of a true nativity, and this is the work of a spiritual power, that to be, and to be in, differ nothing; to be in, yet not to be one in another as body in body, but so to be and to subsist, as to be in the subsisting, and so to be in, as also to subsist," &c. Trin. vii. fin.; vid. also iii. 23. The following quotation from S. Anselm is made by Petavius, de Trin. iv. 16 fin.: "Though there be not many eternities, yet if we say eternity in eternity, there is but one eternity ... And so whatever is said of God's Essence, if repeated in itself, does not increase quantity, nor admit number ... Since there is nothing out of God, when God is born of God ... He will not be born out of God, but remains in God."

"There is but one Face ([eidos], character) of Godhead, which is also in the Word, and One God, the Father, existing by Himself according as He is above all; and {77} appearing in the Son according as He pervades all things; and in the Spirit according as in Him He acts in all things through the Word. And thus we confess God to be One through the Trinity." Orat. iii. § 15. And so: "The Word is in the Father, and the Spirit is given from the Word." iii. § 25. "That Spirit is in us which is in the Word which is in the Father." ibid. "The Father in the Son taketh the oversight of all." § 36 fin.; vid. art. The Father Almighty, 2. "The sanctification which takes place from Father through Son in Holy Ghost." Serap. i. § 20; vid. also ibid. 28, 30, 31, iii. 1, 5 init. et fin., also Hil. Trin. vii. 31. Eulogius says, "The Holy Ghost, proceeding from the Father, having the Father as an Origin, and proceeding through the Son unto the creation." ap. Phot. cod. p. 865. Damascene speaks of the Holy Spirit as [dunamin tou patros proerchomenen kai en toi logoi anapauomenen], F. O. i. 7; and in the beginning of the ch. he says that "the Word must have Its Breath (Spirit) as our word is not without breath, though in our case the breath is distinct from our substance." "The way to knowledge of God is from One Spirit through the One Son to the One Father." Basil. de Sp. S. 47. "We preach One God by One Son with the Holy Ghost." Cyr. Cat. xvi. 4. "The Father through the Son with the Holy Ghost bestows all things." ibid. 24. "All things have been made from Father through the Son in Holy Ghost." Pseudo-Dion. de Div. Nom. i. p. 403. "Through Son and in Spirit God made all things consist, and contains and preserves them." Pseudo-Athan. c. Sab. Greg. 10. {78}

Since the Father and the Son are the numerically One God, it is but expressing this in other words to say that the Father is in the Son, and the Son in the Father, for all They have and all They are is common to Each, excepting their being Father and Son. A [perichoresis] of Persons is implied in the Unity of Substance. This is the connection of the two texts so often quoted: "the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son," because "the Son and Father are one." And the cause of this unity and [perichoresis] is the Divine [gennesis]. Thus S. Hilary: "The perfect Son of a perfect Father, and of the Ingenerate God the Only-generate Offspring, (who from Him who hath all hath received all, God from God, Spirit from Spirit, Light from Light,) says confidently 'The Father in Me and I in the Father,' for as the Father is Spirit so is the Son, as the Father God so is the Son, as the Father Light so is the Son. From those things therefore which are in the Father, are those in which is the Son; that is, of the whole Father is born the whole Son; not from other, &c. ... not in part, for in the Son is the fulness of Godhead. What is in the Father, that too is in the Son; One from the Other and Both One (unum); not Two One Person ('unus,' vid. however the language of the Athan. Creed, which expresses itself differently after S. Austin,) but Either in Other, because not Other in Either. The Father in the Son because from Him the Son ... the Only-begotten in the Ingenerate, because from the Ingenerate the Only-generate," &c. Trin. iii. 4.

And so [ergazomenou tou patros, ergazesthai kai tou {79} huion]. in illud Omn. 1. "Cum luce nobis prodeat, In Patre totus Filius, et totus in Verbo Pater." Hymn. Brev. in fer. 2. Ath. argues from this oneness of operation the oneness of substance. And thus S. Chrysostom thinks it right to argue that if the Father and Son are one [kata ten dunamin], They are one also in [ousia]. in Joan. Hom. 61, 2. Tertullian in Prax. 22, and S. Epiphanius, Hær. 57, p. 488, seem to say the same on the same text. Vid. Lampe, Joan. x. 35. And so S. Athan. [trias adiairetos tei physei, kai mia tautes he energeia]. Serap. i. 28; [en thelema patros kai huiou kai boulema, epei kai he physis mia]. in illud Omn. 5. Various passages of the Fathers to the same effect, (e.g. of S. Ambrose, "si unius voluntatis et operationis, unius est essentiæ," de Sp. ii. 12 fin., and of S. Basil, [on mia energeia, touton kai ousia mia], of Greg. Nyss. and Cyril. Alex.) are brought together in the Lateran Council. Concil. Hard. t. 3, p. 859, &c. The subject is treated at length by Petavius, Trin. iv. 15, § 3.

As to the very word [perichoresis], Petavius observes, de Trin. iv. 16, § 4, that its first use in ecclesiastical writers was one which Arianism would admit of; its use to express the Catholic doctrine was later. {80}


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One Love
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   Posted 11/20/2006 6:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW:
Isn't this redundant: "dispositional tendency "

Yes. Duly noted.

*****************

POW:
As to "a PERPETUAL MOTION of life transfer" -- I'm not going there.

It's not a bad concept. God is an open system of relationships between 3 unique perspectives within the one necessary triune divine being. And constant loving homeostasis exists in of sponteneity of the Trinity (see Greg's dissertation) that causes a "perpetual motion effect" where there is a constantly growing experience of beauty.

Check it out...logical succession.


1. The actuality and dispositional reality of the Father brings forth the Son. The individual dimension of the Father's disposition is the Holy Spirit of God.

2. The Father and Son both have the same dispositional reality (Holy Spirit) and disposes towards one another in communication.

3. The social disposition created by the Father and Son's relational dynamic is, in effect, an expansion of the Father's disposition that affects both the Father and Son...

4. and this social disposition, being the "power" of perfect self-communication of personhood, itself has the perfection of personhood just like the Father and Son do...

5. and this social disposition RELATES to the Father and Son as a person and not only demonstrates the relationship of the Father and Son...but acts as the "tie that binds" it as well

6. And as the Father and Son relate to the Holy Spirit personally...they continue to dispose towards one another in communication...

and, as they do, they continue the social dispositional dynamic that affects both the Father and Son...

etc...

etc...

etc...

Perpetual motion.

It's like something that continuously fills itself...from it's OWN source.

God is the ONLY true perpetual activity.

Please note I'm NOT saying that there was ever a "start time" for this process. Again, I agree with Greg that the Father has ALWAYS been in relationship with the Son and the Spirit...and that it is inconceivable that the Father could be ontologically "separated" from the Son or the Spirit. What I'm saying is that this PERPETUAL PROCESS is one that has been ETERNALLY OCCURING.

See what I'm talking about?

Post Edited (Namaste) : 11/20/2006 6:20:50 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 6:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I apologize for my unavoidably repetative dispositional tendencies. :-)


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 6:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"open system of relationships between 3 unique perspectives" -- relationships of opposition?


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 6:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll try to come back in about three (3) hours.


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One Love
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   Posted 11/20/2006 6:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW:
Coinherence implies motion without motion -- as distinct from motion that changes. It better befits God's eternity.

I hear ya. When you think about it, from the trinitarian process perspective, the locus of coinherence is the HOLY SPIRIT of God.

The Holy Spirit is the dispositional reality within both the Father AND the Son...and the tie that bonds both in relationship. There is PERFECT coinherence because all of the Persons of the Triune God SHARE the One dispositional reality of God, the Holy Spirit.

Using this, I think we have a new term available that helps:

Dispositional Dynamic Equilibrium

It basically has all of the power and meaning of "coinherence", but also keeps in play the idea of motion. A dynamic equilibrium occurs when two reverisible processes occur at the same rate. This occurs such that even though there is "motion", there is NO CHANGE of STATE!

The process of which we are talking about is the COMMUNICATION process of Godself TO Godself. And this process of perfect self-expression and perfect reception of perfect self-expression occurs over and over such that God is the ETERNAL ACT OF PERFECT RELATIONALITY.

God is ALWAYS the PROCESS of communication and relationality within Godself that continually generates beautiful experience...but there is NO CHANGE of God's ETERNAL internal state of being with respect to what necessarily identifies God as God.

Once again, a beautiful both/and.

Post Edited (Namaste) : 11/20/2006 6:22:27 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 11/20/2006 6:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW:
"open system of relationships between 3 unique perspectives" -- relationships of opposition?

Never. Relationships of COMPLEMENTARITY that are necessary aspects of an organic divine whole. Again, the ONE necessary triune being is INCONCEIVABLE without the 3 unique perspectives of Father, Son, and Spirit and the unique relationships between those perspectives.

Feel me?

Post Edited (Namaste) : 11/20/2006 6:12:42 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 11/20/2006 7:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let me say this VERY, VERY, VERY clearly.

I am not a tritheist. Not in ANY shape or form. I definitively hold that there is ONE GOD. There is only ONE DIVINE, NECESSARY, TRIUNE being. Saying that there are three unique perspectives that comprise the reality of this ONE Being does NOT mean that there are different "personalities" in the Trinity. That there are 3 "Gods" that work together so much that we may as well call them One God. No. There is only ONE GOD...it's just that this God is NOT an absolute monad, but a triunity of relational being composed of complementary relationships between 3 unique perspectives of divine essential existence.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 11:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/athanasius/volume2/file3.html 
 
When it is said, I in the Father and the Father in Me, They are not therefore, as these suppose, discharged into Each Other, filling the One the Other, as in the case of empty vessels, so that the Son fills the emptiness of the Father and the Father that of the Son, and Each of Them by Himself is not complete and perfect, (for this is proper to bodies, and therefore the mere assertion of it is full of impiety,) for the Father is full and perfect, and the Son is the Fulness of Godhead.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 11:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
same link as above

...by the mutual coinherence or indwelling of the Three Blessed Persons is meant "not a commingling as of material liquids, nor as of soul with body, nor as the union of our Lord's Godhead and humanity, but it is such that the whole power, life, substance, wisdom, essence, of the Father, should be the very essence, substance, wisdom, life, and power of the Son." de Trin. 28, 1.

S. Cyril adopts Athan.'s language to express this doctrine. "The Son in one place says, that He is in the Father and has the Father again in Him; for what is simply proper ([idion]) to the Father's substance, by nature coming to the Son, shows the Father in Him," in Joan. p. 105. "One is contemplated in the other, and is truly, according to the connatural and consubstantial." de Trin. vi. p. 621. "He has in Him the Son, and again is in the Son, because of the identity of substance."


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 11:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Namaste said...
...the locus of coinherence is the HOLY SPIRIT of God.
My mind is across the country in a hospital.
 
But... judging from what the Newman article is saying you would NOT say that for God coinherence has a "locus."


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/20/2006 11:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
same source (Newmanreader)

The following quotation from S. Anselm is made by Petavius, de Trin. iv. 16 fin.: "Though there be not many eternities, yet if we say eternity in eternity, there is but one eternity ... And so whatever is said of God's Essence, if repeated in itself, does not increase quantity, nor admit number ... Since there is nothing out of God, when God is born of God ... He will not be born out of God, but remains in God."


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Tom
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   Posted 11/21/2006 9:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't see where Namaste is disagreeing with you POW.

Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 11/21/2006 9:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom...

Ain't life just beautiful, baby? biggrin


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/21/2006 5:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
I don't see where Namaste is disagreeing with you POW.

Tom
 
 
Namaste said...the locus of coinherence is the HOLY SPIRIT of God.
 
PoW:    But... judging from what the Newman article is saying you would NOT say that for God coinherence has a "locus."


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/21/2006 5:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

http://www.newmanreader.org/works/athanasius/volume2/file3.html
 
The Coinherence

 

 


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Tom
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   Posted 11/21/2006 7:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My guess is that D just means by "locus" to locate (if only logically) the self-disposing loving coinherence that is God. In other words, just as we say the Fater is the fount and source of divinity from which the Son is begotten, so we might say the Father's disposition to self-communicate is the 'locus' of the begetting. I think that's all D is after, but just with respect to the Spirit.

Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 11/21/2006 8:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Good guess, Tom. biggrin
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/21/2006 8:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BUT, he said "the locus of coinherence is the HOLY SPIRIT of God."

What do you think he meant by that?


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One Love
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   Posted 11/21/2006 8:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW:
BUT, he said "the locus of coinherence is the HOLY SPIRIT of God."

What do you think he meant by that?


What do YOU think I mean, POW?
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/21/2006 8:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: "My guess is that D just means by "locus" to locate (if only logically) the self-disposing loving coinherence that is God."

I'm being picky. "Perichoresis" is regularly missused in books of the last decade. I'm not quick to let down my guard on "coinherence" either. I look to how those who gave it its use used it. And I compare/contrast that with what I can only slowly understand in what D. is writing.

Jury's out.

(Hope I'm being respectful and polite.)


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/21/2006 9:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Namaste said...
POW:
BUT, he said "the locus of coinherence is the HOLY SPIRIT of God."

What do you think he meant by that?


What do YOU think I mean, POW?
I don't know. You don't seem to mean the same thing as in the Newmanreader does, or the patristic sources it quotes.
 
Best I can articulate it, "coinherence" does not have a beginning and ending terminus. (Guess that was clear.)
 
- B


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One Love
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   Posted 11/21/2006 9:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let me help here.

B., I'm not saying that the Father and Son pass the Holy Spirit between them, thereby creating coinherence.

I'm saying that it is the Father's dispositional reality for self-communication, which subsists in ALL THREE DIVINE PERSONS, where we "look" for coinherence in God. The dispositional reality of the Father contains ALL the "essential character" of the Godhead.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

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