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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/3/2006 9:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: We’re mapping core theological commitments in contemporary categories.

PoW: I follow you Tom. And I'm sure you noticed *this* by Lossky: "In spite of the terminological identity, these 'words' have little in common with the logoi spermatikoi or 'seminal reasons' of the stoics. Rather they are the 'words' of creation and of providence which are found in Genesis and the Psalms (Ps. cxlvii)."

Tom: The lines of influence move in both directions.

PoW: They *can.* And below you outline the care with which this should be done.

Yet, the snip I present from Lossky, that tells how it is the Psalms and not the Greek philosohpers that are at play (contra Harnack) in the Great Tradition are demonstrative of something all would do well to uphold and follow: the Gospel according to the Scriptures.

It is FINE to then put that into language accessible to contemporaries. But the USE of language must be free to redefine how things work. D. presents Greg's thesis as a good example of reconfiguring of a system to match what is known from OUTSIDE of that system!

Tell me if you follow that last part.

Tom: ...takes up otherwise unique Process insights ... and dresses itself up in those categories. This is good and useful ... to people who see the world in those categories.

PoW: (Can't resist the humour here! Who can understand all this philosopher-speak? ;0)

Tom: In picking up the Process ‘map’ we pick up the Process ‘territory’. We then explore the compatability of these insights with Scripture. Might Scripture support such insights? Might Scripture contradict them? Might Process be expressing the same biblical insights in different categories? What’s the relationship?

PoW: Point well made. And D. put it this way: " No, I wouldn't need Open View Theism at all...from a doxology standpoint." THAT presents an order of priority, and a direction of informing! Greg again.

Tom: When the gospel moved inside Hellenistic culture it influenced and was influenced by their philosophical categories.

PoW: Over time the influence of those categories on the East was fixed (which help from the West) in a way that the East built defences against threats. Some of those same threats later beset the West, to the effect that only recently Western theologians took the lead in rediscovering Byzantine theology, with EO in tow.

Tom: When the gospel...it...was influenced by their philosophical categories. I mean, look at us, we’re still expressing our theology today in Greek philosophical categories... The Church’s understanding was adversely affected as well. ... All the more reason for remaining vigilant AND for strengthening our conversation with tradition.

PoW: The Conciliar dogma of the Church was not adversely affected. Through all the pain they ironed out with great strength the truth. But the "remaining bigilant" and "conversation" are -- AS YOU SAY -- important!

I THINK YOU LIKE WHAT I'VE WRITTEN.

Pow: I'd like to comment on your last line: "communicate the gospel to people who see the world in those categories." I'd say that the Gospel IS THE TRUE CATEGORIES. And that our job is to help people move from the unfocused categories they are working with towards a way of using the terms and organization they are familiar with into a manner that matches the LIVING TRADITION of the Gospel. The true categories are Dogma. They can be said many ways, perhaps. They have been progressively revealed as Scripture is more and more understood. (But they do not "develop" as sometimes Rome has maintained. The Gospel, all the way back to creation, through fall and redemption, and onto glorification IS THE CATEGORIES.

No doubt.


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/3/2006 8:33:14 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/3/2006 9:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Namaste 2.0 said...
Logoi, baby. Love it.
D., what do you see here?
 

Vladimir Lossky

“Created Being”

Chapter 5 of The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church

(St Vladimir’s Seminary Press: Crestwood, New York, 1976)

pp. 91-113.  (found in part of this)

------------------------

http://jbburnett.com/resources/lossky/lossky-createdbeing.pdf

------------------------

His will for us is a mystery, for the will is a relationship with another, and there is nothing which is 'other' to God:  creation ex nihilo is in comprehensible to us. We only know the will of God in so far as it is His relationship to the world which is already created; it is the point of contact between the infinite and the finite, and in this sense the divine 'willings' are the creative ideas of things, the logoi, the 'words'. In spite of the terminological identity, these 'words' have little in common with the logoi spermatikoi or 'seminal reasons' of the stoics. Rather they are the 'words' of creation and of providence which are found in Genesis and the Psalms (Ps. cxlvii). Every created thing has its point of contact with the Godhead; and this point of contact is its idea, reason or logos which is at the same time the end towards which it tends. The ideas of individual things are contained within the higher and more general ideas, as are the species within a genus. The whole is contained in the Logos, the second person of the Trinity who is the first principle and the last end of all created things. Here the Logos, God the Word, has the 'economical' emphasis proper to antenicene theology: He is the manifestation of the divine will, for it is by Him that the Father has created all things in the Holy Spirit. When we are examining the nature of created things, seeking to penetrate into the reason of their being, we are led finally to the knowledge of the Word, causal principle and at the same time end of all beings. All things were created by the Logos who is as it were a divine nexus, the threshold from which flow the creative outpourings, the particular logoi of creatures, and the centre towards which in their turn all created beings tend, as to their final end. For creatures, from the moment of their first condition, are separate from God; and their end and final fulfilment lies in union with Him or deification. Thus the primitive beatitude was not a state of deification, but a condition of order, a perfection of the creature which was ordained and tending towards its end.1

Revealing himself through His creative 'thought-wills', God can be known in creatures and by means of creatures, but He can also be known immediately in mystical contemplation, in His uncreated energies which are the splendour of His face. It is thus, in His Godhead, that Christ appeared to the apostles on Mount Tabor, and it is thus that He makes Himself known to the saints who detach themselves from all created things, renouncing all finite knowledge in order to attain to union with God. And we see here why, when they have abandoned all, the saints receive in the end perfect knowledge of the created world, for in being lifted up to the contemplation of God, they possess in the same instant the knowledge of the whole world of being in its first reasons which are the 'thought-wills' of God, contained in His simple energies. We are reminded here of the ecstasy of St. Benedict of Nursia, who saw the whole universe as if it had been gathered together into a beam of the divine light.1



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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/3/2006 9:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/orth_plato.aspx
 
This charts lots of terms and categories, without ignoring their presence throughout history.


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/3/2006 9:01:30 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/3/2006 10:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What do I see, B?


Panentheism.

God indwells all things. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Within all created matter/energy (in all of it's forms and orders) is of the Uncreated DISPOSITIONAL ENERGY of God. (Superjective activity of God WITHIN Creation...from the Consequent hypostasis) It is through this creative ordering power that God's "energies" maintain and guide all things towards total unity in the Consequent hypostasis. (deification)

We are God's "energies" who can CHOOSE to participate with God's superjective activity who are "beings in motion" moving towards the Perfect Active Stillness of God...unified in the Logos, the Son of God.

Mutual perfection of individual "natures."

That's where we find our REST!

And where we understand the truth.


When we understand the truth, then we understand that...

All is One and One is all

[Yes, there is a distinction between the Uncreated and created. Completely. But the bottom line is that ALL reality is dispositional. And all dispositional reality is from necessary existence, God.]

Or for those who may be nervous about that language...

All is in One and One is in all.

For either term...

...that One is Christ, the Son of God.

That's what I see.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

Post Edited (Namaste 2.0) : 12/3/2006 9:51:53 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/3/2006 11:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How about this?

In everything I experience, I experience the Son.

All I experience is Christ.

The Son is ALL.

There is NO EXPERIENCE that I have where I don't experience the Consequent Hypostasis.

And in experiencing Christ, I experience the Incomprehensible and Unknowable.

And I see the fundamental unity of all things...and how their diversity still exists within that unity...

...bringing forth untold BEAUTY.

Yeah...


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 8:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Thanks, D.

typo? - or explain:  We are God's "energies"

PoW:  The rest looks fine.
 
Can I interest you in a book on Maxiumus?
I can give you two reasons you would LOVE this!
 
(Go Bears!)
 
 


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/4/2006 7:12:39 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 12/4/2006 8:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW: Over time the influence of those categories on the East was fixed...

Tom: When did the East fix timelessness? (Atemporality? Beyond-time-ness?)...arguably not a 'biblical' notion at all but introduced entirely by Hellenism.

Tom


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 9:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QUOTE: PoW: Over time the influence of those categories on the East was fixed (which help from the West) in a way that the East built defences against threats. Some of those same threats later beset the West, to the effect that only recently Western theologians took the lead in rediscovering Byzantine theology, with EO in tow.

PoW: I just quickly chose the verb "fix" for what I might have written "arrived at." So: The influences influenced the East, with the help of the west (contra Arianism, etc.) to arrive at a set of antibodies to protect the truth of the Gospel. Later the west, lacking such experience and categorical-antibodies, found itself susseptible to some of the same--and other related--problems.

That's what I was saying.

So, you ask "When did the East fix timelessness?" It didn't. It avoided it; and gained the means to continue avoiding it. BUT the West didn't have that means, and passed down to now the "timeless" notion that OV is right to be allergic to.

(Get your shots early in the flu season!)


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 9:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, here's some of the above article by Thomas Mether.
 
It demonstrates the *virus* you are right to be on the watch for!
 
. . .
The west was captured by an ousiological metaphysics. This metaphysics held western theology in captivity. It is in its nominalist form coming from William Occam that we find it still in captivity in the Calvinist’s even having the very question of whether God knows future contingents in light of predestination, and time. This was a metaphysics, St. Maximos the Confessor points out, that saw time as an enemy and thus sought that stable enduring thing through change that thereby is the most fundamental kind of being. Thus, that kind of perdurance was dubbed with the past participle he says. In essence, what is called by contemporary philosophers "the metaphysics of presence" according to Maximos is really the metaphysics of the past, as fully complete and determinate, used paradigmatically to colonize all the other temporal modes of present and future. The present is the predestined creature of the past both in Calvin and Newton. The essentialism downgrades accidental being or sumbebekos. Now sumbebekos as accidental being was also not well understood in the west. It is not being that exists in another like a form of being found within one of the predicate categories. It designates the happenstantial, the contingently situational so it is not precisely necessary-essential that my wife has auburn hair; that she has this hair color is accidental in the sense of sumbebekos, it is fortuitous in the sense that her hair could have indifferently been auburn or not auburn but it is necessary that it have some color. This kind of accidental being can be found in every category. Thus, in the pagan Greek view, that a human is this or that individual is accidental but it is necessary that a human be somebody. The distinction then between accidental being in the sense of sumbebekos from an accident-predicate is that the accidental being is the contingent or fortuitious actuality according to every necessary category. So, accidental being in this sense is the contingent affection or actual constellation or situation or event that takes place according to the necessity of different categories. On the Orthodox reading, this sumbebekos is really God’s governance or the concrete realization of God’s purpose in time. To downgrade it is a spiritually sick symptom of the religiosity of sarx that finds time to be a corrosive force that bears no faith or hope. Thus, accidental being just as the unique particularity of persons and the future, is downgraded in pagan metaphysics in favor of fully determinate being-essences (the dead, fully completed and determinate and deterministic past idealized as enduring presence) or ousiological being for the paradigmatic past participle. It was not till Scotus developed his concept of haecceity and the individual’s will did you find the beginning of the overturn of a ousiological metaphysics in western Christian theology. Maximos pointed out the original meaning of sumbebekos was not negative as it as in pagan philosophical theology but was positive. It meant the adventurous and creative way things are "brought together." So, in Orthodox theology coming from Maximos, the pagan agenda to make (persons and) reality in its concreteness, in all its contingency, fortuity, distinctiveness, and unique unrepeatibility unreal in favor of impersonal, universal, and necessary is set on its head. Thus, sumbebekos, as very purposeful counterpoint in Byzantine theology, is the creative way (Logos) that God brings all things together (sumbebekos) in the existential fullness of their realization (uparktikos) of his eikonomia. This lead Maximos to revolutionize Aristotle’s categorical analysis of Being in one of its meanings.
 
But, maybe that is what D. has been saying.  rotfl


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/4/2006 8:13:02 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 9:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...revolutionize Aristotle's categforical analysis...


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 9:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
More Thomas Mether:
 
So, Thomist and Calvinist discussions seem, from an Orthodox perspective to, too uncritically inherit a pagan concept without sufficient critical reflection on the legacy of its pre-Christian meaning and implications. The on-going issue of the relation of Greek philosophy and Orthodox theological expression is an issue for any properly responsible theology that has to be methodologically fastidious about the concepts it uses and/ or may read into Scripture. Proof of this, at least in the case of Thomas and Calvin, is the very need to be concerned about whether or not God knows individual souls, particulars, or future contingents. The Orthodox understanding is that the pagan concept of divine immutability was an allergic reaction to time and contingency that needed to find a time-proof foundation of necessity for religious reassurance. Time was the evil Kronos who ate its children. So, the concept is symptomatic of a spiritual sickness of the religiosity of sarx (which in Orthodoxy is not "flesh," but deathliness, related to sarcophagus, it is the opposite of spirit, it is de-spiritedness that emotionally believes in death more than God despite what the head believes). Pagan philosophical theology sought a predestinied necessity in a time-proof order or an anti-time God. Since everything human is temporal, one gets the unknown God because God is what anything temporal-mortal is not.

Using a Biblical base to modify Greek pagan concepts, divine immutability in Orthodoxy is God’s loyalty to his promise (his Word, his Church) to his (Church designed) creatures. It is the immutability of his commitment through and outside of time. It is the basis of the fact that economia was the telos, and thus, foundation of the creation. Church is the fulfillment of covenant. Covenant is the inner purpose for creation. Creation is the outer staging for the inner purpose. So, the Church, as Body of Christ, is the fruit from which the tree that bore it, the cosmos, was itself borne and born, as St. Diadochus of Gaza puts it. God’s immutability is that he is agape, essentially and contingently, immutably a sharer of Person with Persons, uncreate or create. Time has no nature apart from this agenda, and thus, is nothing in relation to it, and thus, is not an obstacle or issue for or about divine immutability unlike the unregenerate paganism of the insufficiently methologically critical Calvinism.

 

 


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 9:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"...uncritically inherit a pagan concept without sufficient critical reflection on the legacy of its pre-Christian meaning and implications..."

"Anyway, I hope this shows just how minute the fine-tooth combing of Greek concepts in order to serve Christian theology was."


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 9:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HOPE YOU COULD WEED THROUGH THAT, TOM.


BET YOU LOVED IT, D.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/5/2006 7:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
N?


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Tom
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   Posted 12/5/2006 8:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW: So, you ask "When did the East fix timelessness?" It didn't. It avoided it; and gained the means to continue avoiding it.

Tom: The means to avoid timelessness? I too have the means to avoid timelessness. We call it: temporality. These are contradictory states: timelessness and temporality. If you avoid timelessness you embrace temporality. But my hunch is you will want to avoid BOTH and argue that God is neither timeless nor temporal but some third option you call "beyond time" (preeternal?). I confess I don't find any meaningful difference between "timeless" and "beyond time." Preeternal is positively meaningless to me.

Did you avoid the pothole and drive into a deeper ditch? A cure worse than the sickness. ;o)

Tom


 

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Corey
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   Posted 12/5/2006 8:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Alan recently wrote about this topic on his blog.
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Tom
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   Posted 12/5/2006 9:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW: But, maybe that is what D. has been saying. rotfl

Tom: Yes, it is! rotfl
 
I wasn't sure if you thought Mether IS the virus or Mether treats the virus! Which is it?
 
But so far as I follow Mether, I totally agree with him. Loved it. He sounded quasi-process to me. Aristotle's substantive metaphysic was incomplete. Process is far better. Call it a metaphysics of 'relations' if you will. Dudn't matter. Same thing.

Your second post of Mether was good as well. I enjoyed and agreed with it. I'd only disagree with this: "It is the immutability of his commitment through and outside of time." Why "outside of time"? See? Why put that? Where's it come from? After all his talk about not being afraid of time as the pagan Greeks were, he has to go and say that? In my view he lets the virus BACK IN with the words "outside of time." There is no "outside of time." It's just fodder for science fiction films.

Had he ended his statement with "...through time [period]" and left it at that I can't think of anything I'd be disagreeing with him on.

Tom


 

Post Edited (TGB) : 12/5/2006 8:16:30 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 12/5/2006 9:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, I saw that. I'm not entirely sure an absolute end of time is logically possible (given the necessary personal nature of God), but his argument works IF you grant that possibility (which Craig does).

Tom


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/5/2006 5:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: I wasn't sure if you thought Mether IS the virus or Mether treats the virus! Which is it? But so far as I follow Mether, I totally agree with him. Loved it.

B: The "virus" would be the view of time that supports the Calvinist view; due, as he explains, to using the wrong *type* of time and letting it redefine things into a form that isn't Biblical.

Does that help?


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/5/2006 5:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: Did you avoid the pothole and drive into a deeper ditch? A cure worse than the sickness. ;o)

B: No. But I enjoyed the sense of humor.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/5/2006 5:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Did you catch that two different things are both called "time" by us, and shouldn't be?


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/5/2006 7:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
Your second post of Mether was good as well. I enjoyed and agreed with it. I'd only disagree with this: "It is the immutability of his commitment through and outside of time." Why "outside of time"? See? Why put that? Where's it come from? After all his talk about not being afraid of time as the pagan Greeks were, he has to go and say that? In my view he lets the virus BACK IN with the words "outside of time." There is no "outside of time." . . .
I'm in a rush, in the midst of a too-busy week...so I'm crossing my fingers so that I can take this back... So, THIS seems crutial:  WHICH "time" is he saying "outside" of?
 
(I'll come back later to think about this. But I think that since there are two 'times' you might have excaped the full import of that. What do you think, Tom?)
 
reading 


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Tom
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   Posted 12/5/2006 7:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW: Did you catch that two different things are both called "time" by us, and shouldn't be?

Tom: We shouldn't call either 'time' or we shouldn't call both of them 'time' (while we should call one of them 'time')?

Maybe you could help me see your understanding of what 'time' is (which after several years I have to say I still do not follow). What is time, POW? And does God experience it? Is God temporal? Or is it both temporal and this illusive 'beyond time' thing you refer to (which I also admit to being entirely in the dark on). Or if not "beyond time," then "pre-eternal." Can you help me find meaning in that?

POW: ...a form that isn't Biblical.

Tom: And what would be the biblical form/view on God's relationship to time?

Tom


 

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Tom
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   Posted 12/5/2006 7:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW: I'm in a rush, in the midst of a too-busy week...so I'm crossing my fingers so that I can take this back... So, THIS seems crutial: WHICH "time" is he saying "outside" of?

Tom: Mether's meaning is clear--God is outside that same time "through which" he remains faithful.

POW: (I'll come back later to think about this. But I think that since there are two 'times' you might have excaped the full import of that. What do you think, Tom?)

Tom: I have no concept of two 'times'. None at all.

Tom


 

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Tom
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   Posted 12/5/2006 7:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Talked to D. today about Mether's quote there. He loved it. Right on.

Do you understand D better now?

Tom


 

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