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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 9:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
QUOTE:   St. Maximus apparently accepted the argument that the Filioque issue between East and West was a linguistic misunderstanding, which in the VII Century, when the West was Orthodox, it probably was. Subsequent theological developments in the West, however, have exacerbated rather than resolved the issue.
 
 
St Maximos Confessor to Marinus on the Filioque

Those of the Queen of cities (Constantinople) have attacked the synodal letter of the present very holy Pope, not in the case of all the chapters that he has written in it, but only in the case of two of them. One relates to the theology (of the Trinity) and according to this, says 'the Holy Spirit also has his ekporeusis from the Son.'

The other deals with the divine incarnation. With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced the unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause of the Spirit--they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by procession--but that they have manifested the procession through him and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence.

They (the Romans) have therefore been accused of precisely those things of which it would be wrong the accuse them, whereas the former (the Byzantines) have been accused of those things it has been quite correct to accuse them (Monothelitism).

In accordance with your request I have asked the Romans to translate what is peculiar to them (the 'also from the Son') in such a way that any obscurities that may result from it will be avoided. But since the practice of writing and sending (the synodal letters) has been observed, I wonder whether they will possibly agree to doing this. It is true, of course, that they cannot reproduce their idea in a language and in words that are foreign to them as they can in their mother-tongue, just as we too cannot do.

Saint Maximos' Letter to Marinus, PG 91, 136

http://www.geocities.com/athens/atrium/8410/maxfilioque.html


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One Love
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   Posted 11/27/2006 10:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Both-and.

Yes, there is only ONE "primordial" actuality of God...and that's the Father. Everything stems from that primordial actuality: both the Father's dispositional tendency towards self-communication (Spirit of God) and the Father's express self-representation (Son of God)

However...

It is also true that the social expansion of the Father's disposition towards self-communication ONLY OCCURS because of the Father's relationship with the Son. This means that there IS a manner in which the dispositional life of God does in fact "proceed" also from the Son. Again, without the Son, the Father's disposition for self-communication would be UNREALIZED, leaving sociality impossible. There would be no social disposition within God. Therefore, the Son is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to the existence of relationality in the Godhead.

So, it is the case that the Spirit proceeds as singular disposition ONLY from the Father...but proceeds as social disposition from both Father AND Son.

Both-and.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 10:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
All these terms are really hard for me to follow. (My ability is more along the lines of comparing something new to something I already grasp.) So, this *feels like* you have _replaced_ Augustine's definition of the Spirit being the love shared between the Father and the Son (something the East sees as a lessening of the person-hood of the Spirit) with other definitions. Like, you _define_ the Son *as* "the Father's express self-representation." I'm not comfortable with that. (Again, I just compare new things to things and patterns I already feel confident of.)

So...I'm not comfortable going there. Sorry.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 10:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
E-mail Bradley Nassif, and ask him what his reaction is.


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One Love
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   Posted 11/27/2006 10:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW:
All these terms are really hard for me to follow. (My ability is more along the lines of comparing something new to something I already grasp.) So, this *feels like* you have _replaced_ Augustine's definition of the Spirit being the love shared between the Father and the Son (something the East sees as a lessening of the person-hood of the Spirit) with other definitions. Like, you _define_ the Son *as* "the Father's express self-representation." I'm not comfortable with that. (Again, I just compare new things to things and patterns I already feel confident of.)

So...I'm not comfortable going there. Sorry.



"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.  So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs."

All "express self-representation" means is what the bolded part says.

Moreover...

I am saying the the Holy Spirit (which IS person) is fundamentally the dispositional reality of the Father...which is also the SOCIAL dispositional reality of the Father and Son.

Don't let the terminology shake you. Everything that needs to be maintained (logical priority of the Father, personhood of the Spirit, full co-eternity of the Son, etc) is maintained in this view.

Trust me. biggrin


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

Post Edited (Namaste 2.0) : 11/27/2006 9:35:48 AM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 10:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: "the Father's express self-representation."

Scripture: "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being..."

PoW: They are two different things to say "expresses" and "is the radiance of." A to-the-point comparison is found by saying that "expresses" and "expression" are two different things. Related, but different. (And we will quickly toss out any consideration of expression being 'one among many' as that does not apply.)

The scripture passage is not arguing what you want it to. And from there grows my discomfort.

-------

On another note, where Maximus says "they have manifested the procession through him and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence," I find something that I haven't decided upon, but feel willing to mull over.


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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 11/27/2006 10:01:55 AM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 11:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Namaste 2.0 said...
I am saying the the Holy Spirit (which IS person) is fundamentally the dispositional reality of the Father...which is also the SOCIAL dispositional reality of the Father and Son.

Don't let the terminology shake you. Everything that needs to be maintained (logical priority of the Father, personhood of the Spirit, full co-eternity of the Son, etc) is maintained in this view.

Trust me. biggrin
I have a fundamental distrust of scholasticisms (constructions). So, merely taking the pieces, and merely putting them together according to rules does not give me comfort.
 
And I think there may be things going on, that addess to essence or intra-T what applies to economy. (Which your scripture verse pointedly did.)
 
I'd like an "outside" opinion.
 
(But thanks for the conversation.)
 
reading 


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Tom
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   Posted 11/27/2006 12:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Seems to me POW that you're splitting hairs here (but I'm not hairdresser).

We say the Son is "begotten" of the Father. So the Father "begets" the Son. We move from adjective to verb. And that's fine. The same can hold for Hebrews. We say the Son is representative of the Father (or is the "exact representation of" the Father). It's no great leap then to say the Father "represents" himself as Son. The latter is entailed in the Son's being that representation.

Amazing what debates maps can generate! ;o)

Tom


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 12:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D.

Please explain or define this: "the Holy Spirit is fundamentally the dispositional reality of the Father"

And, what is the role of the word "is."

-

(No, I'm not being Clintonesque!)


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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 11/27/2006 12:13:55 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 1:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8153.asp

. . .

Gennadios Scholarios (attended the Council at Ferrara-Florence ) points out that Augustine accepted and developed the filioque under four presuppositions:

  1. Augustine was under the impression that he was following Hilary and his teacher Ambrose. He points out that Jerome, who was educated in the Greek East, avoided the filioque language. The difference between Hilary and Ambrose on the one side and Augustine on the other is that the first two fathers were expressing a personal opinion whereas Augustine struggled against all those who expressed views opposite to his.[22]
  2. On the basis of Scripture that states the Spirit as power issued from the Son to heal all the sick, as well as the Son who sends and breathes the Spirit on the Apostles, Augustine interpreted these passages on the basis of the opinion of Hilary and Ambrose.[23]
  3. Augustine used human models beyond the limits to describe the Holy Trinity and for that reason he fell into error.[24]
  4. Augustine followed the Platonic position that God primarily is the Good (Agathon). The Good eternally begets (aidios) the Mind (Nous). The Mind is the cause of all beings and is also called secondary cause, and is referred to as "idea" and "logos." From the mind the universal soul is derived that gives vitality to all living beings. So, Scholarios claims that Augustine transferred this view into the Christian Trinity. The "Good" (Agathon) is unbegotten and not bound to intellect (agenneton). The Mind (Nous) is begotten only from the Good. The Soul is derived from the Mind and returns to the Good. The Soul is the relational connection as love between the Good and the Mind. These views not only were accepted by Plato, but also by Plotinus as well as by numerous heretics.[25] 

Scholarios blames Augustine for his notorious philosophical approach to revelation. It was the Manichean influence that Augustine underwent during his pre-Christian involvement with that heresy. His pagan and Manichean training remained with him all his life. In fact, Scholarios says "Lord deliver us from the Augustinian dialectic."[26]

 


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 1:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

The view of Vladimir Lossky is that, through a better understanding of Augustine by the East, it is possible to bridge the two positions in theology. To quote Lossky:

"Reconciliation will be possible and the filioque will no longer be an impedimentum dirmens at the moment when the West, which has been frozen for so long in dogmatic isolation, ceases to consider Byzantine theology as an absurd innovation which can be found in a less explicit form in the Fathers of the first centuries of the Church."[46]

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8153.asp

 


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Tom
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   Posted 11/27/2006 1:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sounds like Lossky essentially says "Reconciliation will be possible when the West changes."

What's the possibility that West and East are both right in what they affirm and wrong in what they deny. Maybe it's really a both-and solution.

Tom


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 1:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
Seems to me POW that you're splitting hairs here (but I'm not hairdresser).

We say the Son is "begotten" of the Father. So the Father "begets" the Son. We move from adjective to verb. And that's fine. The same can hold for Hebrews. We say the Son is representative of the Father (or is the "exact representation of" the Father). It's no great leap then to say the Father "represents" himself as Son. The latter is entailed in the Son's being that representation.

Amazing what debates maps can generate! ;o)

Tom

 
 
At first blush...I'm not quick to say that the Son "is" the Father "representing himself." That's a statement, ontologically, applied to the Father. But its a casual thing to say, in looking at the economy, that the Son is the exact representation of the Father--which is a statement applied to the Son in the economy.
 
I'm cautious, Tom.
 
(Are you confusing looking at a map and being in the map? ;o) 


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 1:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
Sounds like Lossky essentially says "Reconciliation will be possible when the West changes."

What's the possibility that West and East are both right in what they affirm and wrong in what they deny. Maybe it's really a both-and solution.

Tom
 
 
I think that what Lossky said there means is that while some of what the West "affirms" is wrong, if they go back to the roots of their own tradition and work from there, that they can get out of this mess.
 
 


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