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One Love
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   Posted 11/25/2006 5:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jesus was the ultimate alien.

He was not of this world.

He was absolute divinity within himself...and his own Creation didn't know him.

Yet it was by his "death", that Creation has become "Creation Alpha"

(Humanity Alpha is a subset of Creation Alpha)

Creation Alpha is a DISPOSITIONAL REALITY.

It is the contingent dispositional reality in which is the power and tendency of Creation towards operating by Creative Reason (The necessary dispositional reality of the Father)

And this contingent dispositional reality can be brought into actuality by self-disposing entities who self-dispose (will, choose, whatever) into equilibrium with Creation Alpha.

It can every only be the case that dispositional realities can ONLY COME into actuality ...in this "matrix" we call "the universe"...as ACTUAL BEINGS in this universe self-dispose via free choice towards INCARNATING the dispositional reality (subjective aims) set before it.

When this "choice" takes place, Creation Alpha is brought from being dispositional POTENTIAL to being an occasion of ACTUALITY.

This is Creation Alpha.

It is then a region of actuality within God's contingent expression (A FREE Creation) where there is active and continual SELF-DISPOSITION towards the historically novel Creaturely Dispositional Equilibrium (The Spirit of CHRIST JESUS in the world)...and in so doing, expresses the very same dispositional tendencies as the Triune God as they dispose towards right relatedness (movement towards relationally-appropriate intimacy) and as they create and appreciate BEAUTY.

Creation Alpha is most COMPLETELY INCARNATED in human beings who UNDERSTAND their new ONENESS IN CHRIST. (The Church)

Upgraded Humanity.

Where the unity of Creation and Creature is NATURAL.
 
Where there is no EMNITY with God.
 
Yeah...

Creation Alpha is a product of a BEAUTIFUL MIND!

This is a region of space where it can be metaphysically said that the dispositional reality of God is continually being ACTUALIZED via the self-dispositions of autonomous centers of experience...such that creatures don't BECOME God...but they continually participate in the dispositional reality of God.

There is ONENESS, with not CONFUSION of DISTINCTIONS.

Partakers of the divine nature.

So...ahem...

Creation Alpha has come.

Or in Jesus' words...

The Kingdom of God is at hand!

Jesus was not of this world.

Now, neither are we. Not really.

Resistance is utterly futile.

All WILL be lovingly "wooed" into the Creaturely Dispositional Equilibrium.

All is already DISPOSITIONALLY "made well" by Christ.

All will be ACTUALLY be "made well" by Christ.

All to the Glory of the Father.

And God is all in all.

Joy unspeakable.

In Him.

__________________________________


"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."


----------------------------------

"For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that everyone may receive what is due them for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade people. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are "out of our mind," as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

---------------------------


What do you see?

:-)


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

Post Edited (Namaste) : 11/25/2006 5:00:04 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 11/25/2006 6:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Summary:

Christ Jesus is the "New Adam"


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/26/2006 4:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, Christ is the new Adam.

Still, we know that the first Adam is modeled on the second -- out of normal sequence.

Some have thought it fit to see something exceptional in the Incarnation. Or to conceive of it being incomplete, like: no human will.

Christ demonstrates that man was created FOR fellowship with God and participation in the grace of the Holy Trinity.


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/26/2006 4:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Also, the whole of the cosmos is created for God's dwelling.


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 11/26/2006 4:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW:
Yes, Christ is the new Adam.

Still, we know that the first Adam is modeled on the second -- out of normal sequence.

Some have thought it fit to see something exceptional in the Incarnation. Or to conceive of it being incomplete, like: no human will.

Christ demonstrates that man was created FOR fellowship with God and participation in the grace of the Holy Trinity.


and...

Also, the whole of the cosmos is created for God's dwelling.

Agreed and Amen.

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One Love
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   Posted 11/26/2006 4:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Some people may not like the "Alpha" thing...

(I think it's cool... biggrin )

How about...

Creation 2.0

"Upgrade" of God's Contingent Expression via Creaturely Dispositional Equilibrium, created through the work of Christ Jesus.

Fixes all the "bugs" of Despair, Self-centeredness, and Fragmentation

Enhances all of the Beauty Appreciation and Beauty Creation functionality

Expresses the creative design of the Master Programmer more appropriately.

Runs on the Operating System Life 2.0


Again, ladies and gentlemen...

Resistence is utterly...utterly...futile.
 
We are all over the place.
 
Humans possessed by an alien force of Perfect Love.
 
Wanting to takeover this planet by creative reason, joy, and loving self-sacrifice...
 
For the glory of the Creator of the Creation 2.0, Jesus.

All will be assimiliated into Creation 2.0.

 
Because LOVE NEVER FAILS.
 
So, it's inevitable.  It always was.

We just have a chance to participate in it early...and help others do the same.

Signing off,
Namaste 2.0


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

Post Edited (Namaste 2.0) : 11/26/2006 3:51:18 PM (GMT-6)

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Similitude
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   Posted 11/26/2006 5:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Because LOVE NEVER FAILS.
 
Love that!!biggrin


 

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Corey
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   Posted 11/27/2006 10:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Resistance is utterly futile."
 
God: The Good Borg

--------

Actually, I was hit with a wave of choking up during the spotlight segment at church yesterday, talking about the prayer ministry. They flashed up a series of words and phrases that were right on track with what we've expressed here. "Resistance is futile" was one of the phrases.

Post Edited (Corey) : 11/27/2006 9:52:16 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 11/27/2006 12:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Namaste: Jesus was the ultimate alien. He was not of this world.

Tom: Don't mean to nit-pick, but "Jesus"--the INCARNATE one, has to be of this world (unless by "not of this world" you just mean "free from the bondages of this world" or "didn't depend on this world for his indentity and fulfillment";-). That's what 'incarnation' is about, right? It means what is NOT of the world (the Son, the second person of the Trinity) takes the world into its experience and redeems it. yes? no?

Tom


 

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Tom
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   Posted 11/27/2006 12:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd also like to see us unpack "love never fails" more because it's obvious to me that loves does in some sense "on occasion" fail. There is privation. And all privation is a privation (a failure of...) love and beauty. I don't think Paul means to say God always gets what he wants. There's more to this. Either "love never fails" means "love sometimes fails now but it will eventually win out" (which doesn't seem to fit the context very well; Paul seems to be saying something about loving relationality NOW) or "love never fails" means that in spite of what we're calling a failure of God to get what he wants and what we're calling privation and ugliness, there's still a sense in which IN EVEN THESE CASES love is not failing, it's fulfilling and winning. But how?

In other words, "love never fails" either expresses an eschatological hope (the way the world "will be" in spite of sin) or a conviction about the present (the way the world "now is" in spite of sin).

I'm not sure which is which,
Tom


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/27/2006 1:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
Namaste: Jesus was the ultimate alien. He was not of this world.

Tom: Don't mean to nit-pick, but "Jesus"--the INCARNATE one, has to be of this world (unless by "not of this world" you just mean "free from the bondages of this world" or "didn't depend on this world for his indentity and fulfillment";-). That's what 'incarnation' is about, right? It means what is NOT of the world (the Son, the second person of the Trinity) takes the world into its experience and redeems it. yes? no?

Tom

 
<smiley face>


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 11/27/2006 3:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Namaste: Jesus was the ultimate alien. He was not of this world.

Tom: Don't mean to nit-pick, but "Jesus"--the INCARNATE one, has to be of this world (unless by "not of this world" you just mean "free from the bondages of this world" or "didn't depend on this world for his indentity and fulfillment". That's what 'incarnation' is about, right? It means what is NOT of the world (the Son, the second person of the Trinity) takes the world into its experience and redeems it. yes? no?


You nit pick all you want, my amigo!

Besides the fact that Jesus told people that he and his kingdom were not of this world...

I meant that Jesus is the ONLY contingent existent that has as it's dispositional "calling" and becoming the telos of PERFECT EXPRESSION of necessary existence.

In him was LIFE.

He was ALONE in this.

No other human was like this.

He was NOT of this world.

This world was of HIM...and it didn't recognize him.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only [Son], who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, "This is he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ";-) Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only [Son], who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.


Jesus was FULLY CREATOR (Alien, Wholly Other)

Jesus was FULLY CREATION in his humanity (Not-Alien, NOT Wholly Other)

Just my thought...

**********************

Tom:
I'd also like to see us unpack "love never fails" more because it's obvious to me that loves does in some sense "on occasion" fail. There is privation. And all privation is a privation (a failure of...) love and beauty. I don't think Paul means to say God always gets what he wants. There's more to this. Either "love never fails" means "love sometimes fails now but it will eventually win out" (which doesn't seem to fit the context very well; Paul seems to be saying something about loving relationality NOW) or "love never fails" means that in spite of what we're calling a failure of God to get what he wants and what we're calling privation and ugliness, there's still a sense in which IN EVEN THESE CASES love is not failing, it's fulfilling and winning. But how?

In other words, "love never fails" either expresses an eschatological hope (the way the world "will be" in spite of sin) or a conviction about the present (the way the world "now is" in spite of sin).

I'm not sure which is which


Gordon Fee on 1 Cor 13:8. New International Commentary on the New Testament. The First Epistle to the Corinthians. pp.642-643 (all emphases mine):

This paragraph begins with the famous line, "Love never fails", but it is not immediately clear what Paul intends. On the one hand, the combination of the adverb "never" and the present tense of the verb suggests that it stands in continuity with the preceding list, bringing whole to its conclusion. In this case it would mean something like "Love is never defeated, is never brought to the ground; it persists even when rebuffed." On the other hand, several items indicate that it serves as the beginning of the present paragraph and is intended to be set in contrast both to the verb "remain" in v. 13 and the verbs "pass away" and "cease" in v. 8. If so, then it would mean something like "never comes to an end, becomes invalid," and thus extends the sense of the final verb in v. 7, "always endures." Perhaps Paul's intent is to be found in the very ambiguity of such figurative language, so that both are in view. There is a sense in which love is never brought down; it reflects God's character, after all, and cannot fluctuate from what it is. Yet that very reality is what also give it eternal character, so that it "remains" even after all other things have come to there proper end.

Unlike prophecies, tongues, and other signs...love will NEVER come to an end.

It always perserves...endures...lasts...

it outlasts ALL human kingdoms...

But it LASTS because it is based in ETERNITY.

The Eternity of God.

Why?

Because love is WHAT GOD IS (God is love)...and what God is is necessary, not contingent.

Necessary existence is more FUNDAMENTAL to reality than contingent existence.

and what is necessary existence?

It is COMMUNICATION (prehension, interpretation, expression).

All reality is INHERENTLY relational...because God is INHERENTLY relational.

God IS perfect communication. God IS perfect relationality.

God is perfect relationally-appropriate intimacy!

God IS love!

All spritual beings reflect God's being insofar as they are spirits (though only humans can "image" God's being.)

We are OF what is eternal.

This is NOT saying that we have no beginning like God. This is saying that the NATURE OF OUR EXISTENCE is of the same dynamic as what exists eternally: relationality and communication

We are BEINGS WHO COMMUNICATE!!

We CANNOT HELP but prehend, interpret, and express reality.

It's WHO WE ARE!

In this way, we are of ETERNAL EXISTENCE.

We exist as God IS...a reality of communication, just in a contingent way.

Now...

Privation and despair are PARASITICALLY LINKED to us!

Privation and despair is nothing more than the state of DISEQUILIBRIUM being actualized. Disequilibrium made possible, but not necessary, by our RELATIVE AUTONOMY from God.

But privation and despair CANNOT ultimately destroy a spiritual being.

There's no way.

For a relatively autonomous spiritual being to be annihilated, you'd have to completely destroy the relation. A spiritual being is a being who relates to itself in it's relation. (SK) You'd have to have a dispositional reality that COULD NOT prehend any possibility for it's own becoming. And therefore ceasing to be.

But this is METAPHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE because dispositions AS SUCH are mediations between possibility and actuality. To annihilate a disposition is functionally to ELIMINATE ALL POSSIBILITY for that disposition's becoming to prehend...

But as long as God exists (forever)...

there is ALWAYS a GENUINE possibility of relationship with God for every spiritual being that exists.

Always.

We can repress or ignore this truth for a little while...

but not forever.

So, privation and despair are NOT eternal!

Privation and despair had a BEGINNING as a SHADOW of true creaturely existence, the product of a MISRELATION in the relation. So, privation and despair are negative functions that can ONLY EXIST as "actual states" as the contingent experience of creatures.

The become "empowered lies" that we live by!

Ah, but there is a time where spiritual beings (who have been created to be eternal beings) will be COMPLETELY COMMENSURATE with what is ultimately real: LOVE!

There is a time when LIES will be obliterated.

At that time, it will be shown that love has NEVER, EVER failed! Ever.

Love...Which is relationally-appropriate intimacy expressed in right-relatedness unto beauty. Perfect love is "perfect communication guided by perfectly creative reason"

It has always "remained"

and when the End comes...Despair and privation will be NO MORE.

Neither will signs and wonders...

But Love will stand...

Triumphant.

Supreme.

Love...the Dispositional Essence of the Father which has NO beginning and NO end.

Love is the ULTIMATE REALITY and the ULTIMATE TRUTH.

No amount of privation or despair can triumph over that.

No amount of lies can overcome Truth.

No amount of darkness can overcome Light.

None.


therefore...

Resistence is futile.



"Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo."
--The Oracle, Matrix Revolutions

"You were right, Smith. You were always right. It was inevitable."
--Neo, Matrix Revolutions


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

Post Edited (Namaste 2.0) : 11/27/2006 2:49:24 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 11/27/2006 3:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey - Beta1:
God: The Good Borg

Exactly. Seriously. Exactly. biggrin

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)

"The Borg are an amalgam of humanoids of many different species that are enhanced with implanted cybernetics, giving them improved mental and physical abilities. The name Borg is short for cyborg (cybernetic organism). The Borg function as automata; the minds of all Borg drones are connected via implants and networks to a hive mind, the Borg Collective, personified by the Borg Queen and controlled from a central hub, Unimatrix One. According to themselves, the Borg only seek to "improve the quality of life for all species" by integrating organic and synthetic components in their quest for perfection. To this end, they travel the galaxy, increasing their numbers and advancing by "assimilating" other species and their technologies, and subjugating captured individuals by injecting them with nanoprobes and surgically implanting prostheses, quickly changing their biological anatomy and biochemistry to the Borg standard.

Despite being perceived as a conquering juggernaut by all who know of or have encountered them, the Borg harbor no ill will to anyone; they merely fulfill their imperative to assimilate and achieve perfection. As they say, "Resistance is futile — you will be assimilated." They make good on that threat through their ability to quickly adapt to any attack, rendering it harmless. Thus, any successful defense depends on the ingenuity of the opponent to find a method to stop the Borg completely before they can neutralize it."




My restatement...


"The Body of Christ are an collective of humans of many different backgrounds that are enhanced with the Holy Spirit of Christ, giving them improved spiritual/relational abilities. The Body of Christ functions as "living sacrifices"; the minds/hearts of all Christians are connected via the Holy Spirit to a the "head", the New Adam and New Creaturely Dispositional Equilibrium, personified by the Jesus all according to the will of the Fount of Divinity, God the Father. According to themselves, the Body of Christ only seek to "improve the quality of life for all Creation" by synergistically integrating creaturely and divine activity in their quest for the glorification of God in Creation. To this end, they travel the world, increasing their numbers and advancing by "assimilating" other peoples and their cultures, and living a life that creates occasions for despairing individuals to experience lovingly relationship with God, themselves, and others, quickly changing their experience and understanding of life to the Kingdom of God worldview.

Despite being perceived as a "conquering juggernaut" of judgment by many who know of or have encountered them, the true Body of Christ harbor no ill will to anyone; they merely fulfill their imperative to assimilate and bring God's dispositional reality into actuality "on earth as it is in heaven." As they say, "Resistance is futile — you will be assimilated." They make good on that statement through their ability to quickly adapt to any attack using the power and presence of the Holy Spirit of Christ, rendering all attacks harmless."


We are all ONE in Christ.

We are ALL connected to ONE ANOTHER in Christ.

We are ALL connected to God in Christ.

Such that the experience of the ONE influences the WHOLE...and the experience of the WHOLE influences the ONE.

The ONE individually expresses the dispositional essence of the WHOLE...and provides EXPERIENCE to contribute to the WHOLE.

The WHOLE gives context and support to the ONE and gains valuable information for it's continued becoming from the ONE.
 
The is inseparable INDIVIDUAL UNIQUENESS and RELATIONAL CONNECTEDNESS.

All is of the Father.

All will be assimilated into the Father's will.
 
An assimilation of love...where one is in all and all is in one.

Straight up Borg, baby.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

Post Edited (Namaste 2.0) : 11/27/2006 2:53:35 PM (GMT-6)

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Corey
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   Posted 11/27/2006 4:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm.. The Good Borg... TGB... coincidence?


 

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Tom
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   Posted 11/27/2006 7:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What? ME? You mean I'M the good borg? Well, yes, thank you! Eh, what? Is it a coincidence? No, not really.

Tom


 

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Tom
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   Posted 11/28/2006 9:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey N-

I'm writing up a section on open theism's supporting convictions--love, freedom, risk. I'm seeing three's everywhere of course and so wondered if there might be something fundamental about divine reality itself that's mirrored in three-fold commitment to love, freedom, and risk, something wierd like: Love betokens Father (primary and source, that from Son and Spirit are begotten and proceed respectively). Freedom betokens Spirit (unpredictable and free-flowing like the wind!). Risk betokens Son (who incarnates, suffers, and redeems creation).

Too elegant to ignore?

Tom


 

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might-be-don
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   Posted 11/28/2006 12:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmmm.. did anything ever become of the Doc's Threes project ?


The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.
 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/28/2006 7:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, economy or immanent?

I also have some hesitation as per that the everything in the economy is done by every person of the trinity -- do you reflect that?

In the "economy" of salvation, the Son and the Spirit are inseparable: "When the Word dwelt upon the holy Virgin Mary," Athanasius writes, "the Spirit, together with the Word, entered her; in the Spirit, the Word fashioned a body for Himself making it in conformity with Himself in His will to bring all creation to the Father through Himself."8 The main argument in favour of the consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Son and the Father — used by Athanasius, by Cyril of Alexandria, and by the Cappadocian Fathers — is the unity of the creative and redemptive action of God, which is always Trinitarian: "The Father does all things by the Word in the Holy Spirit."9

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/byzantine_theology_j_meyendorf.htm


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One Love
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   Posted 11/29/2006 4:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Rahner was right.

The economic trinity IS the immanent Trinity. And vice versa.

Yep.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/29/2006 5:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Namaste 2.0 said...
Rahner was right.

The economic trinity IS the immanent Trinity. And vice versa.
 
Consider:
(Meyendorff)  "Without our experience of Father, Son, and Spirit in salvation history," writes Karl Rahner, "we would ultimately be unable to conceive at all of their subsisting distinctly as the one God."
 
(Meyendorff)  "...the immanent Trinity manifests itself as the "economic" Trinity, i.e., the saving revelation of God in history."
 
and
 
(Meyendorff)  "In the classical Latin Trinitarian doctrine, "Father, Son, and Spirit are only ‘relatively’ distinct."21 Whatever the interpretation given to the idea of "relation" implied in this statement, it is clear that Western thought recognized the ontological primacy of essential unity over personal diversity in God; that is that God is essentially one, except in the divine Persons who are defined in terms of relations. In Byzantine thought, however, — to use an expression from Maximus the Confessor, — "God is identically monad and triad. . .""
 
Significantly:
 

(Meyendorff)  The knowledge of God is therefore possible only inasmuch as He reveals Himself, inasmuch as the immanent Trinity manifests itself in the "economy" of salvation, and inasmuch as the transcendent acts on the immanent level. It is in the fundamental oneness of these "acts" or "energies" of God that the Greek Fathers, particularly Basil and Gregory of Nyssa, discover the decisive and existential sign of the unity of God’s essence. Basil’s well-known argument in favour of the divinity of the Spirit is that He has the same "energy" as the Father and the Son. Similarly, Gregory of Nyssa proves the essential unity of Father, Son, and Spirit from the unity of their operation.24 This argument also fitted into the context of the Cappadocians’ polemics against Eunomius who affirmed the possibility of knowing God’s essence; no knowledge concerning God they asserted was possible, except from His "energies." The "economic" Trinity revealed in God’s action in the world is therefore the only possible basis for affirming that God is indeed, paradoxically and incomprehensibly, a transcendent and immanent Trinity. Gregory of Nyssa’s doctrine of the "energies" is well described by G. L. Prestige:

In men..., in spite of the solidarity of the whole race, each individual acts separately, so that it is proper to regard them as many. This is not so... with God. The Father never acts independently of the Son, nor the Son of the Spirit. Divine action... always begins from the Father, proceeds through the Son, and is completed in the Holy Spirit; there is no such thing as a separate individual operation of any Person; the energy invariably passes through the three, though the effect is not three actions but one.25

In fact, the Aristotelian principle according to which each "nature" (physis) has an "energy" (energeia) — i.e., an existentially perceivable manifestation, — provides the terminological background for the patristic concept of "energy" (We find this terminology is used as well in Christology where Maximus the Confessor, for example, maintains that the two natures of Christ presuppose two "energies" or wills). However, significantly, the Aristotelian dyad, nature-energy, was not considered sufficient in itself when applied to God because in God’s nature the decisive acting factor is hypostatic; hence, divine "energy" is not only unique but tri-hypostatic since the "energy" reflects the common life of the three Persons. The personal aspects of the divine subsistence do not disappear in the one "energy," and it is indeed the Trinitarian life of God which is communicated and participated in the "energy": through the "energy" therefore the divine hypostases appear in their co-inherence (pcrichōrēsis):26 "I am in the Father and the Father in me" (Jn 14:11). Human persons though also one in nature and substance act disjointly and often in conflict with each other; in God however the pcrichōrēsis expresses the perfect love, and, therefore, the perfect unity of "energy," of the three hypostases, without however any mingling or coalescence. The "energy," because it is always Trinitarian, is always an expression and a communication of love: "As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you: abide in my love" (Jn 15:9).

There is only one God -- not an economic God and an immanent God. THAT's Rahner's point.
 
But questions relative to whether something is being SAID about economy or essence is significant and relevant.
 
.
 
Namaste 2.0 said... And vice versa.
 
Hmmm... Yes AND no. One God, yes. But what is revealed in the economy is not as large a set as what is in total.
 
 
 


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/29/2006 7:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
To think about what N. just said, I want to use part of Tom's post as a lab. "Freedom betokens Spirit (unpredictable and free-flowing like the wind!)." he said.

Well, I'm not comfortable with *that* as a statement of "immanent." But if I think of "economic" I'm not limited to what/who God is, but I also encompas what God does IN CONTEXT. And in context the Spirit is perceived as being unpreditable. Surely.

But the Spirit does nothing that is not done IN TRINITY. So...(in fact) the Son is also "unpridictable" and so is the Father.

Maybe THAT will help D/N see where I'm coming from.

And Tom.

But, _in_general_, I REALLY liked what Tom was saying! :-)


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One Love
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   Posted 11/30/2006 1:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW,

The "energy" that Meyendorff is talking about, from my trinitarian process perspective, is the DISPOSITIONAL REALITY OF THE FATHER, who is the primordial aspect of God. The "perfect unity of energy" is BECAUSE the eternal triune activity of divine self-communication by God COMES FROM the dispositional reality of the Father.

Moreover...continuing to use process categories...

It is the case that every thing that God does INVOLVES the primordial (Father), consequent (Son), and superjective (Holy Spirit as social divine disposition) aspects of God. All of the members of the Trinity are involved in ALL of the activity of the Trinity.

We're on the same page. Really. The language is just different.

Post Edited (Namaste 2.0) : 11/30/2006 1:09:10 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/30/2006 5:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I can't say i understand everything you said. But I do think the first sentence of the first paragraph did not really make sence: ''The "energy" that Meyendorff is talking about *IS* the dispositional reality of the Father.

First, would Meyendorff agree? (What do you think?)

Second -- if so -- why would you think this true of energies only, and not essence.

Or, maybe this dunce (a possibility!) needs simpler language.

;0)

Can you point to something in Meyendorff, and then lead me a bit?

",-O


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One Love
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   Posted 11/30/2006 6:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok. Let's do it this way.

Energies of God are basically that which is "existentially perceivable manifestation" of God. These are distinct from God's essence in that God's essence is NOT existentially perceivable. Not only that, but they these "energies" are common to ALL the hypostases of the Triune God.

All I'm saying, B., is that these "energies" are to be found in the Father's dispositional reality...which is the ESSENCE of Godhead. The Father's dispositional reality is that "power" or "tendency" that makes the Godhead what it is. And it is THIS dispositional reality exists in all three hypostases of the Triune God. It is the EXPANSION of the Father's dispositional reality into sociality and non-divine contingent expression that gives us the "essence/energies" distinction.

To me, the priority of the Essence of God over the Energies of God (even though BOTH are God) is simply one of LOGICAL PRIORITY. Without God's essential existence (God's triunity in self-communication), there would BE no "energies" to be perceived by non-divine beings. There can be NO contingent expression of God WITHOUT God's NECESSARY existence.

The primordial aspect of God ie the Father's dispositional reality (which is INACCESSIBLE to us) influences Creation THROUGH God's "energies" [God's superjective activity with Creation] (which ARE accessible to us.)

I hope this is somewhat clarifying. I hope. biggrin


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
 
Everything that will be well...is well already!

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 11/30/2006 7:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Namaste 2.0 said...
Ok. Let's do it this way.

Energies of God are basically that which is "existentially perceivable manifestation" of God. These are distinct from God's essence in that God's essence is NOT existentially perceivable. Not only that, but they these "energies" are common to ALL the hypostases of the Triune God.
======= OK, BUT THIS MAKES IT FEEL LIKE YOU ARE SAYING THAT ESSENCE IS NOT ALSO ONE; AND IT IS. ==============

All I'm saying, B., is that these "energies" are to be found in the Father's dispositional reality...which is the ESSENCE of Godhead. The Father's dispositional reality is that "power" or "tendency" that makes the Godhead what it is. And it is THIS dispositional reality exists in all three hypostases of the Triune God. It is the EXPANSION of the Father's dispositional reality into sociality and non-divine contingent expression that gives us the "essence/energies" distinction.
 
=========== "IN" SOUNDS STRANGE. ==========


To me, the priority of the Essence of God over the Energies of God (even though BOTH are God) is simply one of LOGICAL PRIORITY. Without God's essential existence (God's triunity in self-communication), there would BE no "energies" to be perceived by non-divine beings. There can be NO contingent expression of God WITHOUT God's NECESSARY existence.

The primordial aspect of God ie the Father's dispositional reality (which is INACCESSIBLE to us) influences Creation THROUGH God's "energies" [God's superjective activity with Creation] (which ARE accessible to us.)

I hope this is somewhat clarifying. I hope. biggrin
 
======== DOES SOMEWHAT CLARIFY. =============
 
 
THANKS.
 
(WHAT   E X T R A   BAGGAGE COMES WITH ADOPTING A SET OF CATEGORIES??????)


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