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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 2/27/2006 11:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...the metaphysics of Sinai...
 
 
QUOTE:

. . .

Fourth, God did not tell us that He is one except by telling us Who He is. "Who He is" is what requires monotheism, not simply the inconvenience of rival gods. God's being is such that there can be no other. This is the metaphysics of Sinai.

In the metaphysics of Sinai, the fact that "God is" is identical with "Who God is." God is Who is, Ho On. The Quis is the same as the Qualis. The fact of God is inseparable from the "Who" of God. His being is identical with His existence. This is not some "superior being" speaking to lesser beings. This is Someone who is Being.

It is not human thought, then, that discovers this identification between God's being and His existence, but the pronouncement of the One who responded to Moses' request, "Who shall I say sent me?"

It is not as though the mind of man already knew there was a single God and Moses was simply trying to clarify a point or two on the question. On the contrary, monotheism itself came forth from the self-identifying "I" who, by intruding Himself into man's history, forced Himself upon man's reflection. Authentic metaphysics was born of that intrusion.

It seems to me that this is not what we have today, when monotheism, separated from the historical revelation of Exodus, is pretty often just another form of idolatry, the confession of a god who just happens to be one rather than several. Indeed, such a god may as well be several, because there is nothing about him that requires him to be just one. He is no improvement over the gods of Egypt.


 
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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 2/27/2006 10:30:42 AM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 2/27/2006 11:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

http://www.allsaintsorthodox.org/Ponderings/Pondering_2006_03_05.html

 

1.  Both the Ontological Argument and the Cosmological Argument have their origins ONLY at Sinai.

2.  And that reasoning is found explicitly in Holy Scripture itself.

3.  NO pagan thought of them.

 

CHECK OUT BOTH OF THESE TWO HOMILIES!

 

 


 
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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 2/27/2006 10:29:10 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 12/4/2006 11:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW: 3. NO pagan thought of them.

Tom: But pagans did think of them independently of Scripture and God's revelation to Israel. And it's arguable that Paul offers a cosmological argument in Rom. 1. There's a lot it doesn't say or prove, but it's truth nonetheless, and it can be arrived at independent of Scripture and special revelation. 

Tom


 

Post Edited (TGB) : 12/4/2006 10:14:57 AM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 1:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
PoW: 3. NO pagan thought of them.

Tom: But pagans did think of them independently of Scripture and God's revelation to Israel. And it's arguable that Paul offers a cosmological argument in Rom. 1. There's a lot it doesn't say or prove, but it's truth nonetheless, and it can be arrived at independent of Scripture and special revelation. 
 
Reardon claims:  "First, there is God as Being in Himself. Now it is a fact that no pagan philosopher ever thought to identify God as Being. . .but it was Bible-believers, significantly, who thought of the argument first. Nor is there is any reason to believe it would have entered anyone's mind except for that voice on Sinai"
 
1.  What pagan philosopher do you know that arrived by thinking to the proposition that "God as Being in Himself" -- "that God exists of Himself?"
 
2.  And, as Reardon says, was that before or after scripture did it?
 
I  think its an interesting claim on Reardon's part.
 
I can think of my own exception too, Tom. But i is not philosophical reasoning. It is being prompted by the Holy Spirit to hope in a personal all-powerful. forgiving God. 
 
I think that part of Reardon's statement differentiates between logical working with what those pagan philosophers back when he is talking about had, and the necessary working of the Holy Spirit unto faith! So, pagan philosophers could "arrive at" it, but not by only logic because they needed the Spirit's help.
 
My to cents...
 
Here's what Reardon said:
 
Put in its simplest form, the argument runs something like this: If He Who must exist can exist, He does exist. This is called the Ontological Argument, which reasons from the idea of God to the existence of God.

Leaving aside the question of its validity, the striking fact about this argument is that it never occurred to anyone outside of the data of biblical revelation. Some pagan thinkers adopted it afterwards (the recently lamented Charles Hartshorne being a notable example), but it was Bible-believers, significantly, who thought of the argument first. Nor is there is any reason to believe it would have entered anyone's mind except for that voice on Sinai.

. . .

God as the cause of all that is not God. This approach to God is more developed in Holy Scripture, which teaches in many places that He is the Maker of all things.

This thesis, too, provided an argument for God's existence, an inductive, a posteriori case known as the Cosmological Argument. This line of reasoning, which is found explicitly in Holy Scripture itself, endeavors to discover an explanation (or efficient cause) for the existence of those things that do, in fact, exist. The existence of these non-necessary things (things that don't have to exist) is sought in some Maker that caused them to exist, and this Maker we call God. We find this argument briefly elaborated in Wisdom 13 and Romans 1.


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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/4/2006 12:27:22 PM (GMT-6)

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/4/2006 1:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Leaving aside the question of its validity, the striking fact about this argument is that it never occurred to anyone outside of the data of biblical revelation. Some pagan thinkers adopted it afterwards (the recently lamented Charles Hartshorne being a notable example), but it was Bible-believers, significantly, who thought of the argument first. Nor is there is any reason to believe it would have entered anyone's mind except for that voice on Sinai.

Jeff: The reason why it would not enter anyone's mind is because it is not logically valid. It is circular unless children have planted in their minds the specific concept of God that the ontological argument requires. But there is no compelling reason to believe this is the case. Most people think of God as the creator of the world (or even less than that), pure and simple. Attributes of God are then inferred from that fact. That is exactly what Rom. 1 says. We don't know attributes of God independent of what is entailed in the relation He holds to the universe--namely, the creator thereof. If God was known as being as being in Himself, but was not the creator of this universe, what more could we know of Him?

This thesis, too, provided an argument for God's existence, an inductive, a posteriori case known as the Cosmological Argument. This line of reasoning, which is found explicitly in Holy Scripture itself, endeavors to discover an explanation (or efficient cause) for the existence of those things that do, in fact, exist. The existence of these non-necessary things (things that don't have to exist) is sought in some Maker that caused them to exist, and this Maker we call God. We find this argument briefly elaborated in Wisdom 13 and Romans 1.

Jeff: One need not assume that God is the cause of Himself to suppose He is the intelligent cause (i.e., creator) of our universe. Paul makes it clear in Rom. 1 that he thinks humans know that there is a creator apart from scripture. What's more, he says they know some actions/behaviors are unfitting apart from scripture. We need not make this stuff more difficult than it needs to be.


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 1:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QUOTE:

"It is not human thought, then, that discovers this identification between God's being and His existence, but the pronouncement of the One who responded to Moses' request, "Who shall I say sent me?"

It is not as though the mind of man already knew there was a single God and Moses was simply trying to clarify a point or two on the question. On the contrary, monotheism itself came forth from the self-identifying "I" who, by intruding Himself into man's history, forced Himself upon man's reflection. Authentic metaphysics was born of that intrusion."


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/4/2006 2:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
jefscott said...
Most people think of God as the creator of the world (or even less than that), pure and simple. Attributes of God are then inferred from that fact.
 
PoW:  What about those that believed that the world was created by some god out of other more-preexisting stuff? (You are too sweeping.)
 
jefscott said...
...Rom. 1 says. We don't know attributes of God independent of what is entailed in the relation He holds to the universe--namely, the creator thereof.
 
PoW:  But with darkened hearts man does not do this. Yet Romans says they are without excuse for not doing what you hope they would do, cause the don't.
 


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Similitude
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   Posted 12/4/2006 3:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jefscott said...
Most people think of God as the creator of the world (or even less than that), pure and simple. Attributes of God are then inferred from that fact.
 
PoW:  What about those that believed that the world was created by some god out of other more-preexisting stuff? (You are too sweeping.)
 
Jeff: I don't see that as particularly problematic. Even if God created out of pre-existing stuff, His power and godhead are manifested in the particular arrangement and forms of the designed world. This is plenty enough knowledge for man to be accountable by.
 
jefscott said...
...Rom. 1 says. We don't know attributes of God independent of what is entailed in the relation He holds to the universe--namely, the creator thereof.
 
PoW:  But with darkened hearts man does not do this. Yet Romans says they are without excuse for not doing what you hope they would do, cause the don't.
 
Jeff: Paul says in Romans that they know sufficient attributes of God from the creation but then refuse to thank and glorify Him accordingly. THEN their hearts are darkened because of this refusal or deriliction. The order is important to understand why they are without excuse.
 
Most philosophical speculation and analysis about God and His attributes is fine and dandy. But most of it is unnecessary to understand the basic idea of God as person and creator who is powerful enough to justify a rational fear of Him. Much of such philosophical speculation is necessarily false, anyway, since so much of it is mutually exclusive. It can't all be true. Nor is it that clear that the passage in Exodous is even saying what you say it is. There are different opinions about the meaning of the Hebrew.
 
I find it easier to think of God as a person in the most analogous way possible. We posit what we must to account for His necessary existence, His lack of growth/development, etc. and call it a day. Scripture isn't much help about these things and positing mystery is no help either. Maybe I'm too easy to please.biggrin
 
 


 

Post Edited (jefscott) : 12/4/2006 4:09:23 PM (GMT-6)

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