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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/8/2006 12:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | Yo.
I am AT REST.
My spirit is not REST-LESS anymore.
I feel like my despair is GONE.
There is a HOLY STILLNESS in my spirit that I've never experienced before!
And a knowing...
I KNOW that I'm rightly-related to God at all times because of the power of DIVINE GRACE.
God works in me TO WILL and TO ACT in order to fulfill HIS WILL for my life.
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
I CHOOSE to really believe this.
That the Holy Spirit of Christ WILLS and ACTS in me to fulfill HIS WILL for my life...good works that I was CREATED FOR! A solid PURPOSE.
That God is HE who "...is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
That this is POSSIBLE...
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." --Jesus
I make the ACTIVE CHOICE to believe this all of this is REALITY!!
And that's what has to happen.
It's all about choice.
Just like Neo had to CHOOSE to believe that he was the One.
Just like Jesus had to CHOOSE to believe that he was Israel's Messiah.
And now that I've chosen this...
I feel...
...rested...
I see now that I, like Israel before me, REFUSED to enter into God's rest.
Just like Scripture says.
Think about it. God SET ASIDE a PHYSICAL DAY of rest for his people...
and they turned into something CRAZY where they would measure HOW FAR you could WALK on that day!!
INSANE.
CRAZY.
All God has EVER WANTED for his children...
...is that they enter His rest.
His comfort.
His provision.
His blessing.
His love.
But we can't enter the rest without LOVE...which cannot be there without TRUST!
(Perfect Love casts out all fear...and all fear, invariably deals with a LACK OF ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF GOD in some way.)
When we fall into the trap of Adam and Eve...
The trap of SATAN...
When we really believe that we can BECOME SOMETHING outside of recognizing our ABSOLUTELY DEPENDENT relationship with God...
When we believe that God, in some way, is a THREAT TO OUR BECOMING...
then we begin to refuse His rest.
And enter the land of DESPAIR.
SPIRITUAL DISQUIET
Lack of equilibrium...
Then we want to BECOME SOMETHING so bad, both individually and societally...
That we continue believe and actualize LIES...
And we never experience rest.
Not REAL rest.
Even many of our "recreational" activities aren't restful.
Why?
BECAUSE OUR SOULS HAVE NO REST!
We have NOT casted our cares upon God!
We do NOT believe that God is absolutely all that we need.
We do NOT believe that God cares for us more than for the sparrows.
We do NOT believe that we should take NO WORRYING CARE about your life.
We don't believe.
Like Peter, we have submitted to what the "real world" tells us. We look at the storm, full of it's howling winds, pounding rain, and dark clouds. And we begin to sink ever so slowly into the water that we were JUST STANDING ON...
because we took our eyes from Jesus, the author and FINISHER of our faith.
We look at the apparent PROBLEM and not to the PERSON who KNOWS all things.
Thus we figure that we have to figure out things ALL BY OURSELVES...
Then we get anxious (think of our HIGHLY MEDICATED society...seriously!)
Then it's almost INEVITABLE that the fall into despair occurs.
Ah, but if we would just remember.
Remember who we are.
Remember that we have NEVER been alone...
Remember that we have ALWAYS been sustained by a Lover.
Then we could remember that this Lover PROMISED never to leave or forsake us.
That this Lover gave himself FOR his Beloved.
Then, we could remember what our Lover HIMSELF promised us...
Exodus 33:14
The LORD replied, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."
------
Matthew 11:28-30
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
But the new Spirit of American Life says...
"Don't REST! You can rest when you're dead! All you have is RIGHT NOW! BE all you can BE!!! GO FOR IT!!"
And so we do, in our various ways...
with obvious results.
Social fragmentation.
Isolation.
Radical individualism to the point of working against the Common Good.
WE NEED REST!
We need COMPLETE aesthetic satisfaction in God!
For true rest can be found In HIM alone.
I never believed that before in my life.
That God was ALL I NEEDED.
Never.
But I believe it now.
I believe what was absolutely ABSURD to me before...
That the INFINITE, PERFECT GOD would ever want to be ONE with a FINITE, IMPERFECT being.
And because I genuinely believe that I AM IN UNISON WITH GOD at all times THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST...
Because I believe it with all of my heart right now...
I have rest.
REAL REST.
It's absolutely unearthly.
That's the best word I can use.
UNEARTHLY.
Oh, well.
Here's my blathering TESTIMONY.
Christian perfection is a NEVERENDING PROCESS of GROWTH. (EO understand this extremely well)
But it also seems to involve a HOLY STILLNESS of the spirit.
Almost as if the "present moment" opens itself up to the KAIROS of God...and the two constantly meet in my soul.
Describing such a reality is awesome enough, in my mind.
But EXPERIENCING this...is utterly...UTTERLY...restful.
I love each one of you!
Be blessed in our Lord Jesus today!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/8/2006 12:59 PM (GMT -6) | | FOOTPRINTS
One night a man had a dream. He dreamed He was walking along the beach with the LORD. Across the sky flashed scenes from His life. For each scene He noticed two sets of footprints in the sand. One belonging to Him and the other to the LORD.
When the last scene of His life flashed before Him, He looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of His life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times of His life.
This really bothered Him and He questioned the LORD about it. LORD you said that once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.
The LORD replied, my precious, precious child, I Love you and I would never leave you! During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you.
------------------
What happens if you decide to let Jesus "carry" you AT ALL TIMES IN YOUR LIFE?
What happens if you decide to let Jesus "carry" you into HIS DESTINATION FOR YOU...
...instead of YOU trying to pick your OWN destination and direction?
You enter into His REST!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/9/2006 10:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Let me say this.
I REALLY appreciate everyone interacting with me on this stuff. I really do.
I really value this online community and how it's contributed to God's work in me. I'm an external processor...and it wouldn't be an understatement to say that my processing here has been used by God to continue His molding off me. I pray that God has allowed me to be as much to you in return! Thanks to all of you.
Now...
Some interesting stuff...
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Mysticism
plato.stanford.edu/entries/mysticism/
2.1 Extrovertive and Introvertive
When any experience includes sense-perceptual, somatosensory, or introspective content, we may say it is an extrovertive experience. There are, then, mystical extrovertive experiences, as in one's mystical consciousness of the unity of nature overlaid onto one's sense perception of the world, as well as non-unitive numinous extrovertive experiences, as when experiencing God's presence when gazing at a snowflake. When not extrovertive, we may say an experience is introvertive. An experience of “nothingness” or “emptiness,” in some mystical traditions, and an experience of God resulting from a b][disengagement from sense experience, would be examples of introvertive experiences (For more on these terms see section 4).
2.2 Theistic and non-theistic
A favorite distinction of Western philosophers is between theistic experiences, which are purportedly of God, and non-theistic ones. Non-theistic experiences can be allegedly of an ultimate reality other than God or of no reality at all. Numinous theistic experiences are dualistic, where God and the subject remain clearly distinct, while theistic mysticism pertains to some sort of union or else identity with God.
2.2.1 Union with God
“Union” with God signifies a rich family of experiences rather than a single experience. “Union” involves a falling away of the separation between a person and God, short of identity. Christian mystics have variously described union with the Divine. This includes Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) describing unification as “mutuality of love,” Henry Suso (1295-1366) likening union with God to a drop of water falling into wine, taking on the taste and color of the wine (Suso, 1953, p. 185), and Jan van Ruysbroeck (1293-1381) describing union as “iron within the fire and the fire within the iron” (see Pike, 1992, Chapter 2). Generally, medieval Christian mysticism had at least three stages, variously described, in the union-consciousness: quiet, essentially a prelude to the union with God, full union, and rapture, the latter involving a feeling of being “carried away” beyond oneself (see Pike, 1992, Chapter 1).
2.2.2 Identity with God
Theistic mystics sometimes speak as though they have a consciousness of being fully absorbed into or even identical with God. Examples are the Islamic Sufi mystic al-Husayn al-Hallaj (858-922) proclaiming, “I am God” (see Schimmel, 1975, Chapter 2), and the Jewish kabbalist, Isaac of Acre (b. 1291?), who wrote of the soul being absorbed into God “as a jug of water into a running well.” (see Idel, 1988, p. 67.) Also, the Hasidic master, R. Shneur Zalman of Liady (1745-1812) wrote of a person as a drop of water in the ocean of the Infinite with an illusory sense of individual “dropness.” And, the (heretical) Christian mystic, Meister Eckhart (c. 1260-1327/8) made what looked very much like identity-declarations (see McGinn, 2001 and Smith, 1997). It is an open question, however, when such declarations are to be taken as identity assertions, with pantheistic or acosmic intentions, and when they are perhaps hyperbolic variations on descriptions of union-type experiences.
*******************
I've been having experiences like this more increasingly lately.
The main thing that I've been noticing about my change is the sense of ONENESS that I keep getting. The reason why I changed my name to "Namaste" is BECAUSE I began realizing that All truly IS One and One truly is All. And that One is the Son of God. But the more and more I get into this...I feel less and less separation from things. I feel like I can see into things sometimes and I "see" the internal oneness of all things. EVERYTHING is for glorifying God. Absolutely EVERYTHING.
I see Christ EVERYWHERE and in EVERYONE now.
Somehow, I expect everything I experience to be a "contingent expression" of God's truth, beauty, and right-relatedness in SOME way. Privation is only from ILLUSION. Seeing things inaccurately and operating by empowered lies. But even in such cases...in every experience, actually...God is there...wanting to reveal some new aspect of Himself to us in ANY situation...no matter how painful! And if we are willing to endure the pain, we will see things UNIMAGINABLE.
It's one of the most liberating things I've ever experienced!
What's even cooler is that my METAPHYSICAL VIEW of the world completely goes with this. God is IN all things...and all things are OF God. All Creation is of God's contingent expressions in the forms of "logoi" It is a completel MISUNDERSTANDING OF REALITY to think that we are ESSENTIALLY separate from God. It's just not accurate! Our essential existence is SUSTAINED by God! Everything in Creation is of and from the Logos! I think it's this metaphysical belief that bolsters my mystical experiences.
And I can understand that "Identity with God" part too. See, it's almost as if God's presence is SUPERIMPOSED on your own presence...such that everytime you act and will, you KNOW that God is at work in the exact same activity and willing, contextualizing said activity and willing. It's almost like when a dancer becomes so ENTHRALLED with the dance they are doing and the Dancer with whom they dance, that they cease to perceive a separation between themselves and the DANCE. It becomes more fluid and effortless. And there is more synchronicity. They and the Dancer almost become more and more UNIFIED in their movements, ever sinking into the rhythms.
They BECOME the Dance!
It's a synergy and mutualism that's virtually unexplanable in entirety. And sometimes you WOULD want to say that you and God were one. With predictable results. There are a LOT of people who would get straight up OFFENDED AND MAD if a person were to say that they were in PERFECT UNISON with God to the extent that every action and thought they had were merely the "heat" and "light" radiating from the Divine Fire of God...through a malleable "iron" vessel. They would think that the person was calling THEMSELVES God...or just being an arrogant person or something. But hey, look at how they treated Jesus!
At any rate, this whole things SO new to me. I feel like a newborn baby. For real. There are so many of my old ego-defenses, dysfunctions, and compulsions that God's grace has pulled out of me...that all of my methods of CONTROLLING and MANIPULATING my future and environment have been shown to be what they are: tools of internal brokeness and FALSE intimacy!
When you've been living a false life for so long...what does it mean to BECOME REAL?
When you've been a scared, depressed little boy even up through supposed ADULTHOOD (ala Narcissistic Personality Disorder,Codependency, etc.) all your life...what does it mean when God's given you a TRUE SELF...and you experience true peace and love in your soul?
That's what I'm learning. And it's an interesting road. But it's WORTH IT.
My prayer is that my testifying encourages the hearts of my fellows brothers and sisters in the Lord. Again, y'all KNOW how in despair I was in...and now look what the Lord has done. I was a "Saul" who was actively destroying the Kingdom in my OWN despair about my life and my MISPERCEPTIONS of God. I was foolish (a fool is one who doesn't know God accurately). Now, God has shone his light and has begun healing my sight. Now like PAUL, I feel like this is the most important truth in the world:
It is not I who lives anymore, but CHRIST who lives in me!
Thank you for your grace to me, Jesus.
Love y'all.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/9/2006 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok.
I just wanted to try something here.
Here is something that I think does a very good job of expressing clearly (MUCH more clearly than I can!) what's kinda going on in my internal experience. All this is from www.enneagraminstitute.com/spirituality.asp I'm not even going to describe what the Enneagram is...because that's irrelevant, really. What I'd like you to read is the CONTENT of each "point".
I re-read this today after a long time...just on a whim. It FLOORED me how much this described some of the stuff I've been feeling.
To be sure, EVERYTHING in my internal experience is centering on the Son of God. But the CONTENT of my experience is described well here...
-----------------------------------------
From point Eight, we experience Essential Strength. Strength is an expansive energy, and when it is manifesting we feel large, solid, capable, and alive. Not surprisingly, essential strength arises in defense of our souls—it protects our process and its integrity. It provides a foundation and ground that gives us the ability to discriminate present, real experience from projections and reactions from the past, as well as to tolerate more painful, subtle, or empty states. Without this quality, we may have profound experiences, but we will not be able to embody or sustain them in any meaningful way.
From point Nine, we experience a sense of Unity or Wholeness. We know that we are not only connected with everything else, but that we are not a "separate object." We directly experience the oneness of reality, and our essential union with all creation. Further, we understand that this unity is dynamic, alive, and ever-changing. We know love as the force that breaks through all false boundaries and identities to restore this experience of wholeness. The realization of this state brings a deep satisfaction and contentment—a profound sense of well-being. We feel at peace with reality and with our place in it. We are able to function effectively in the world while knowing that what we are is "beyond" the world.
From point One, we experience Wisdom. This quality is related to the Buddhist concept of right action. Wisdom manifests as brilliant intelligence, an ability to see exactly what is needed in the moment and to act accordingly. This intelligence is not based on any set of principles, guidelines, or rules, but rather arises spontaneously whenever it is needed. It gives us the ability to respond to situations effectively, with an economy of energy—neither too much nor too little. Further, when we are manifesting this quality, we are able to communicate our insights clearly and authoritatively. We are patient, steady, capable, and radiant.
From point Two, we experience Unconditional Love. This quality gives us a tremendous freedom from the inherent neediness of the ego. Knowing that we are connected to the very source of love, and that we cannot lose it, allows us to interact with other human beings in whatever way the moment dictates, without any concern that we will be disliked or rejected. Further, when we are truly and authentically experiencing love as part of our Essential nature, we see that love does not belong to anyone, including ourselves, and recognize that everyone around us is also a manifestation of love. We know that it is not our duty to go around "loving" everyone, but to live in the presence of love such that others may also remember that they too are in the presence of love. Further, love is a tremendously powerful force for dissolving all that is false in us. Few of our illusions about ourselves or others can stand long in the presence of real love. In this respect, we see how love represents the active or dynamic part of truth, and that they are intimately related.
From point Three, we experience Essential Value. When we are manifesting this quality of Essence, we do not need to do anything to feel valuable or worthwhile. We do not need to work at developing our self-esteem because we fully experience our intrinsic value as Being. We feel the profound pleasure and satisfaction of existing—a sense of enjoyment pervades our entire presence. This aspect predisposes us to behave benevolently toward others: experiencing our own essential value, we do not need to manipulate others or our environment in order to see ourselves in any particular light. We experience ourselves as a shining, star-like presence—a source of radiance in the world.
From point Four, we experience Equanimity. Once we open to the riches of the heart and to the inexhaustible wonder of living in truth, we are filled from moment to moment with a kaleidoscope of powerful impressions, sensations, and feelings. Equanimity gives us the capacity to contain all of these ever-changing qualities without being swept into emotional reactions about them. Because the nature of spirit is ever changing, our experience of ourselves and of life is also constantly changing. Equanimity allows the identity of the Essential self to participate in the cornucopia of experiences and inner qualities without clinging to or fearing any of them, and without regretting their passing. In this way, the sense of oneself continually deepens so that powerful experiences are fully felt but do not overwhelm the Essential identity. We are able to feel both the heights of ecstasy and the full intensity of suffering without becoming lost in either.
From point Five, we experience the Essential quality of "Direct Knowing." This quality is quite distinct from the ego's form of thinking, which is generally characterized by inner talk or inner visualization, often accompanied by a process of sorting information and "data retrieval." In direct knowing, however, the mind is silent, and open, and we are supported by the awareness that we will know whatever we need to know as we need to know it. Even the acquisition of new information, skills, or experiences will be guided by an inner knowing that does not arise from the ego's feelings of insufficiency. Direct knowing arises out of a direct experience of the pristine empty space of mind, thus, it allows us to be free of attachment to any particular perspective. We know that in different moments and situations, different perspectives may be more useful, and that our Essence will guide us to whichever perspective is most suitable. This inner clarity also allows us to be unattached to the phenomenal world, because when we are functioning in this capacity, we see all objects and events as arising and disappearing within a vast and unfathomable mystery. We see the world as a dance of exquisite gestures and movements within the shining void.
From point Six, we experience Essential Will. This quality manifests as a sense of being "imbedded" in reality—solidly supported by the ground of Being. It gives us a capacity for endurance and persistence in our Work, and an ability to confront situations without anxiety. We feel as if we are "held up" by a solid ocean of Presence that supports and guides us. Further, we do not need to fill our minds with plans and strategies, because we are directed by a silent wellspring of inner guidance that functions harmoniously with our circumstances and with our environment. It brings a sense of unshakable confidence and a clear sense of direction. The more we open to this quality, the more actively it manifests in our world, leading us exactly to the experiences we most need for our development.
From point Seven, we experience Essential Joy. When this quality manifests, we are filled with an expansive, sunny presence that lets us know that we are moving in the right direction. We feel grateful for the wonderful and mysterious gift of our lives, and experience a profound wonder and curiosity about our journey. We deeply feel the presence of our true spiritual home, and feel it calling us back. As Essential joy arises in us, we know where true value lies, and are fortified to do whatever is necessary to return to what our heart truly desires. We know what we love, and joyfully open to deeper aspects of our True nature.
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Change is good, n'est pas? 
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples in the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/9/2006 12:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Canticle of the Creatures
by St. Francis of Assisi
Most high, all-powerful, all good, Lord!
All praise is yours, all glory, all honor
And all blessing.
To you alone, Most High, do they belong.
No mortal lips are worthy
To pronounce your name.
All praise be yours, my Lord, through all that you have made,
And first my lord Brother Sun,
Who brings the day; and light you give to us through him.
How beautiful is he, how radiant in all his splendor!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.
All praise be yours, my Lord, through Sister Moon and Stars;
In the heavens you have made them, bright
And precious and fair.
All praise be yours, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
And fair and stormy, all the weather's moods,
By which you cherish all that you have made.
All praise be yours, my Lord, through Sister Water,
So useful, lowly, precious, and pure.
All praise be yours, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
Through whom you brighten up the night.
How beautiful he is, how gayl Full of power and strength.
All praise be yours, my Lord, through Sister Earth, our mother,
Who feeds us in her sovereignty and produces
Various fruits and colored flowers and herbs.
All praise be yours, my Lord, through those who grant pardon
For love of you; through those who endure
Sickness and trial.
Happy those who endure in peace,
By you, Most High, they will be crowned.
All praise be yours, my Lord, through Sister Death,
From whose embrace no mortal can escape.
Woe to those who die in mortal sinl
Happy those She finds doing your will!
The second death can do no harm to them.
Praise and bless my Lord, and give him thanks,
And serve him with great humility.
---------------
Talking to the Father of ALL Lights.
The Father of ONE Family.
The Family of CREATION.
Saying "Wow" to this Canticle just doesn't do it justice!
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/9/2006 1:15 PM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...
POW: "Eastern" wisedom avoids that, and does not create a problem that needs solving.
Tom: What problem does God's being temporal create?
Tom
My post says that God's being "beyond temporality" (whatever) does NOT create any problem that then needs solved.
Were same statement to indicate that God is static, un-becoming (whatever). THEN there would be a problem needing solved.
The very first times I emailed with ModesofThought and with Greg Boyd, almost seven years ago now, THAT/THOSE were the concerns that each of them had with Eastern Christianity. They thougth the East had a static, "being-bound" diety.
Whether that is your own concern, or not, Tom, it WAS each of theres.
----------------
Now, if you think you can define "temporal" in a way that you believe I might embrace...then be my guest!
- B.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/9/2006 1:46 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
Now, if you think you can define "temporal" in a way that you believe I might embrace...then be my guest!
I'll try.
Temporality is little more than STATES OF MIND that make RELATIONALITY possible.
What we call "Time" is a function of MIND. The DIVINE MIND.
Movement between possibility and actuality is ALL PERSPECTIVAL. (A priori idea for RELATIONALITY in Greg's view)
PERSPECTIVE is of MIND!
(Think logoi.)
Because God is relational, God does experience temporality.
How's that?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/9/2006 2:26 PM (GMT -6) | |
Exousia said...POW: Now, if you think you can define "temporal" in a way that you believe I might embrace...then be my guest!I'll try. Temporality is little more than STATES OF MIND that make RELATIONALITY possible.What we call "Time" is a function of MIND. The DIVINE MIND. Movement between possibility and actuality is ALL PERSPECTIVAL. (A priori idea for RELATIONALITY in Greg's view) PERSPECTIVE is of MIND! (Think logoi.) Because God is relational, God does experience temporality. How's that?
Please cite someone within the tradition that uses "logoi" that way. And show me how they are using it.
(I don't jump at things until I see conciliarity!)
You are really jargony, and seem to jump around.  (Not that I'm eloquant!  )
It seems that you jumpt between creation and the Trinity.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/9/2006 2:29 PM (GMT -6) | |
Exousia said...
Temporality is little more than STATES OF MIND that make RELATIONALITY possible.
Seems to have LOTS of presuppositions behind it. Unexamined?
I don't feel comfortable with this -- it does not feel familiar.
What would Lossky, Yannaras, or Pelikan say?
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One Love
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| Posted 12/9/2006 2:37 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
Please cite someone within the tradition that uses "logoi" that way. And show me how they are using it.
(I don't jump at things until I see conciliarity!)
You are really jargony, and seem to jump around. (Not that I'm eloquant! )
It seems that you jumpt between creation and the Trinity.
Interesting. I thought you agreed with the way I understood the term.
What are "logoi" but things there have within them a TELOS that God has assigned?
These parameters for movement are PERSPECTIVAL.
They are of GOD'S ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE.
Which is IN THE FATHER (Primordial Hypostasis).
I didn't think that I was saying anything controversial.
Is everything ok, B.?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/9/2006 3:59 PM (GMT -6) | | POW: My post says that God's being "beyond temporality" (whatever) does NOT create any problem that then needs solved.
Tom: It does for a lot of people.
POW: Were the same statement to indicate that God is static, un-becoming (whatever). THEN there would be a problem needing solved.
Tom: I don't see how "beyond time" does not entail a static unbecoming and I cannot see how "becoming" can be anything but temporal becoming. Like I've been saying, take time out of the equation and none of these terms (becoming, loving, personal, relational, potential, knowing, begetting, proceeding) means anything to me. They're absolute void of meaning for me.
But that's just me and a lot of other people.
POW: The very first times I emailed with ModesofThought and with Greg Boyd, almost seven years ago now, THAT/THOSE were the concerns that each of them had with Eastern Christianity. They thougth the East had a static, "being-bound" diety.
Tom: And they still think this.
POW: Whether that is your own concern, or not, Tom, it WAS each of theres.
Tom: It is for me and still is for them.
Pax,
Tom
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/9/2006 5:07 PM (GMT -6) | | |
TGB said...
POW: My post says that God's being "beyond temporality" (whatever) does NOT create any problem that then needs solved.
Tom: It does for a lot of people.
PoW Now: For lots of people it does not. So lets forget both groups of lots-of-people and have a conversation! What problem does this present to you? And what sort of problem is that problem?
After that you can look at the end-result of my lots-of-people and compare that with the values of your lots-of-people, and see whether we can learn anything.
TGB said...
POW: Were the same statement to indicate that God is static, un-becoming (whatever). THEN there would be a problem needing solved.
Tom: I don't see how "beyond time" does not entail a static unbecoming <snip>
Neither could Greg seven years ago, or Modes -- based on how they looked at this.
But when people make a set of two statements in order to bracket an issue, and to rule in and rule out certain related matters, consistantly throughout centuries of history, then it does not register too greatly what you can see right now, or not. You may see better in the future. I bet you will.
<snip> and I cannot see how "becoming" can be anything but temporal becoming. <snip>
That statement, then, says something unussual. Right? And in doing so certain intentional, positive affirmations (as YOU said, Tom!) are made.
There are LOTS of kinds of becoming that are temporal. And most of them I'd not want to happen to me. Many of them would change me into not-me. So, if I requested that someone make me 'become' I'd want to specify what-into and how.
We CAN'T be specific with God. We don't know, and even can't know what being God is "like." All our words fail.
So, whatever else apophatic statements about God and time might be, and/or say, much can be said in what is not said. And what is said often has need of great qualification.
But I was not merely making negative statements.
And it seems, that for some reason, you didn't want my POSITIVE statement to stand either ---- a queer thing!
I wrote that God is active (not static) without also changing, and that God is becoming (should even say 'beyond-becoming') without temporality.
These positive statements are good.
TGB said...
Like I've been saying, take time out of the equation and none of these terms (becoming, loving, personal, relational, potential, knowing, begetting, proceeding) means anything to me. <snip>
Then you are beginning on the wrong end of the equation. And perhaps expecting too much of the statements. Scripture presents God as "light," but also reveals God as "dwelling in darkness." Neither of these can be seen. We get true glancing impressions of them, but stared at our eyes fail us in helping us to fully grasp them.
Both are good statements. Both fail us, while suceeding to benefit us.
<snip>They're absolute void of meaning for me.<snip>
That should not be; and I'll bet its not true either. Take love. You know something about love; and also know that something about love is just so totally elucive that you can begin to grasp that you don't know everything. Can definitions of love say this? Shakespeare, in Sonnett 116 makes both positive and negative remarks bracketing love! ONLY after saying "nor bends with the remover to remove" does he say "O no, it is an ever fixed mark." The Bard didn't lead off with "Love is a fixed mark." Monday Night Football is an ever fixed mark! Not love.
But that's just me and a lot of other people. (There are lots of 'other people' in every possible matter.)
That's not totally you!
- Bruce in Chicago (Go Bears!)
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/9/2006 5:15:50 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/9/2006 5:32 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/9/2006 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/9/2006 6:12 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/9/2006 8:59 PM (GMT -6) | |
jefscott said...
POW: We CAN'T be specific with God. We don't know, and even can't know what being God is "like." All our words fail.
Jeff: Then why does anyone one think it is meaningful to deny temporality of God. Denying temporality requires "words" that "fail?" That's Tom's point. I can't think about God or any other being apart from a conscious contemplation of their existence. But all conscious apprehension or contemplation entails temporal sequence for me. So how could God expect me to think of Him atemporally? How could God expect me to pretend that I could know that He is NOT temporal? What about creation becomes absurd if God is temporal? Where does it get us to use "words" (and, hence, concepts) that "fail?" This very state of affairs--the inability to conceive of atemporal existence--is what makes me think God doesn't expect us to get around temporality.
That's humorous, to "think of God atemporally?" I can't do anything atemporarally.
But I do know what time is -- or at least I experience it. And while I know God is eternal, I do use the notion of "non-eternal" to remind myself of what God is not: God is not non-eternal! Of course I can just strip the double negative like English teachers, like my wife prefer. But sinner that I am I have to fight sin creaping into my thoughts. Wouldn't it be comforting if God changed by adjusting to me??? How convenient. Point made...
Eternal, Everlasting, Eternity... these are words Christians have used -- in various ways -- throught the centuries. Always using them meaningfully and purposefully. Yes, all such language used temporal sequence. But using words that say what is "not" can also be done in time, sequentially. Dionysius wrote that eternity is time at rest and time is eternity in motion. Consider (a temporal act) "eternal life" for a moment. For humans we can, in Christ, experience eternal life by grace, what the Son of God experiences by nature. Such experience does not mean being frozen--ceasing to live. Such participation (1 Peter) in the divine nature is eternal rest and eternal becoming, and eternal communion--koinonia! But something else has stopped. We don't; but it does. And the "it" is the corruptioin of time by death of sin.'
Fathers of the Church, descriptively (and carefully) even spoke of us becoming--by grace (not nature)--"everlasting" too, as God is. That means that one of the defining things about us will be being-beyond-eternity. That is, sharing via gifting by God, in what God is. (Again, 1 Peter.)
You said, "This very state of affairs--the inability to conceive of atemporal existence--is what makes me think God doesn't expect us to get around temporality." What I think is important is to realize that for those who did not speak Latin, who were not faced with dealing with Augustine's notions of predestination, the challenge was merely to develop ways of addressing sin, corruption, and salvation. For doing this speaking of contrasts was important: eternal means not subject to corruption, etc. For God we have to have *some* way of speaking of God being *beyond* eternal, then. Redeemed creation, that is redeemed by a power beyond themselves (whether men or angels) can be eternal. And God is certainly beyond that. So "everlasting" was used sometimes, and expressions such as "pre-eternal" too. They achieved the need that they were faced with. Good enough. But even then it was realized and commented on that while such word-constructions did the job in one way (as analogies do) they failed if pushed to far (as is true of analogies).
Non-Latin speakers faced complicated notions of time later, when conflicts and debates with Islam happened. John of Damascus is noteable.
As to what you said about whether God requires us to do something mentally challenging, to "conceive of atemporal existence" (which btw is a contradictory phrase -- see Gregory Naz "Orations") -- that's not relevant. Feel off *that* hook. As above the hook we ARE on is sin, corruption, and salvation by grace. And then for THOSE topics of eternity (beyond time) and everlasting (beyond creation) and pre-eternal (same) are good for us because they describe in a POSITIVE way a road-map of where God has prepared a place for us to go. And using those Maximus or Dionysius even said that sinful created man could even become (by Grace) "uncreated" and "pre-eternal."
To God be the glory!
- B in Chi.
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/9/2006 10:37:56 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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