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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/2/2007 3:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here's my idea.
God "suffering in forbearance" only means that waiting on us COSTS God something. Something real.
And it seems simple enough to me.
God "suffers" the experience of DISSONANCE.
At base, all sin is DISSONANCE with what is real.
And this DISSONANCE brings with it emotion of DIVINE DISPLEASURE.
(Imagine someone constantly playing extra loud and out of tune...or...scratching nails accross a chalkboard...for a LONG PERIOD OF TIME!)
God has CHOSEN to put up with our constant DISSONANCE with Him because he loves us!
Perhaps the best way to describe "wrath" is just that:
DISPLEASURE
Displeasure CAN BE commensurate with perfect love. A perfectly loving person can have an emotion of DISPLEASURE with a person's behavior or a person's situation.
Perhaps DISPLEASURE is the best term.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/2/2007 5:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Divine DISPLEASURE comes from aesthestic DISSATISFACTION (ie. dissonance with divine activity)
All of the "negative" emotions that we experience (sadness, anger, disgust, etc.) are facets of DISPLEASURE FROM AESTHETIC DISSATISFACTION. Just like all of the "positive" emotions that we experience (happiness, bliss, etc) are facets of PLEASURE FROM AESTHETIC SATISFACTION.
Reeeeeeeeealy think about it.
Just makes sense, doesn't it?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 1/2/2007 7:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Exousia: In other words, would you say that the context of an "angry" feeling is one where the person has the BELIEF that they have been the object (either directly or indirectly) of a WRONG or a TRANSGRESSION...and as a result, there is a negative orientation towards the TRANSGRESSOR.
Jeff: Where I would take issue with your assessment of my view is where we have always seemed to miscommunicate. I don't believe in a "negative orientation towards the TRANSGRESSOR." I'm talking about feeling only--not action or impulse. And yes, the action may be perceived as less than loving by the transgressor because I think God's action upon the transgressor can be, let us say, uncomfortable. But it is positive in effect and, hence, benevolent.
And it is because I'm talking about feeling only that I see no problem with God having a negative (i.e., displeasurable) feeling like anger. And I don't think all of God's or our emotions can be considered aesthetic. But that's probably just because I define aesthetic more narrowly than you do. Once you allow that all of our emotions are aesthetic, then you have no reason to rule out a feeling of anger in God. God's impulses and actions are all benevolent though.
Don't have time right, but this coming weekend I'll explain to you how my view of God's longsuffering differs from yours. Until then, see my last two posts in the "Why an atonement?" thread under Theological Questions. Zach and I are discussing something somewhat related there.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/2/2007 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
Where I would take issue with your assessment of my view is where we have always seemed to miscommunicate. I don't believe in a "negative orientation towards the TRANSGRESSOR." I'm talking about feeling only--not action or impulse. And yes, the action may be perceived as less than loving by the transgressor because I think God's action upon the transgressor can be, let us say, uncomfortable. But it is positive in effect and, hence, benevolent.
That's what this is for. Clarification.
So, from what I'm hearing you say, you would say the following:
"the context of an "angry" feeling is one where the person has the BELIEF that they have been the object (either directly or indirectly) of a WRONG or a TRANSGRESSION"
Leaving out the last part that you dispute. Would this be fair to say? I am trying to get some handle on what you think about anger. Just making sure.
******************************
Jeff:
And it is because I'm talking about feeling only that I see no problem with God having a negative (i.e., displeasurable) feeling like anger. And I don't think all of God's or our emotions can be considered aesthetic. But that's probably just because I define aesthetic more narrowly than you do. Once you allow that all of our emotions are aesthetic, then you have no reason to rule out a feeling of anger in God. God's impulses and actions are all benevolent though.
1) I've never had a problem with God having a negative feeling. That's why I've talked about God experiencing disgust. I, for the life of me, just can't seem to see why God would be angry with his Children for their "transgressions". Even if God "restrains" his anger towards them to DO benevolent thing. I'm still seeing an issue here.
2) It would really help me to know how YOU describe anger, Jeff. Because I'm really trying to see how God, from your perspective, could be angry. I don't see God having the self-understanding that RECIEVES "wrongs" or "offense" from people who do dissonant things to Him. (1 Cor 13).
3) I disagree with your bolded part. It's one thing to say that all negative feeling comes from a perceived frustration of aesthetic satisfaction. It's a whole other thing, IMO, to say that God actually INTERNALIZES BEING "WRONGED" by us to the point of having an angry FEELING concerning his Children.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/2/2007 9:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Perhaps that's my main issue. Anger, as I'm thinking about what I've read and my OWN experience in anger (I've been a PRO at this!!! My wife has told me for years that I've needed an "anger management" course. She really encouraged me to go last year. No joke.), it really does seem that the feeling of anger is based upon a previous understanding that a person COULD GET OFFENDED or COULD FEEL WRONGED by another.
I am really not seeing how a free, perfectly loving, infinitely intelligent God (to whom Creation is relatively meaningless) could see Godself in such a way that would say this...
"Hey, that guy is not doing my will. As a matter of fact, they are actively, knowingly opposing my will and causing needless harm. I KNOW that they "know better!" Because of this, I, the free God, CHOOSE to have a perspective where I experience PERSONAL OFFENSE and a sense of BEING WRONGED by what this guy is doing. I will always act and think benevolently about this guy, but I do feel that he has TRANSGRESSED AGAINST ME.
This is what's going through my head that is making NO SENSE to me.
This is probably because I don't even know what it feels like anymore to feel "offense" or "wronged" by anyone anymore. Honestly. I don't know.
Perhaps someone can help it make sense to me.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/3/2007 11:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Quote me.
It is an absolute ABSURDITY to say that the omniscient, omnipresent, perfectly free, perfectly loving, perfectly-rational, infinitely-intelligent God would actively CHOOSE to hold a FALSE PERSPECTIVE about Godself.
It would be a FALSE PERSPECTIVE for God to believe that any action from Creation could THREATEN or DEVALUE God!
For God to have an emotional occasion that is CONTINGENT upon creational "transgression", God would have to have some previous perspective allowing for the emotion's emergence. In other words, God would have to hold a perspective that ALLOWS for God to FEEL devalued.
But...
IF God can NEVER hold false perspectives, then God can NEVER really believe...AT ANY TIME...that any action could DEVALUE or THREATEN God...in any way.
Therefore, I want to say that God could NEVER have an emotional response based on a FAULTY VIEW OF REALITY...ie that God could EVER be internally devalued by Creation's activity.
Exit any meaningful sense of God being angry AT SINNERS!
----------------------------------------------------
Listen to me.
God has NEVER been angry with ANYONE! EVER!
God has NEVER been an Enemy to us.
WE have been an enemy to Him.
Just like the LOVE'S always been unidirectional...
So has the ANGER been unidirectional...
Hey...doesn't this just COHERE with PERFECT LOVE!
Cmon, y'all.
Doesn't it? 
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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