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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 1/11/2007 3:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | E: Yo. Like Tom, all I'm looking for is ONE solid example of an appropriate behavior that REQUIRES anger to motivate it.
VFG: How about justice? What are the necessary conditions required in order to carry out justice?
Let's answer the question. Give an example where justice absolutely CANNOT OCCUR without the feeling of anger being the motivation towards justice. Anyone?
VFG: Let's say that Jack hurts Molly so badly that she's paralyzed. He did it on purpose because of some misunderstanding they had. In fact he continually injures her every day and it makes him feel better. Should God be upset with this action? We'd agree, "yes."
So what are the necessary and sufficient conditions in order for God to stop it? While I don't think anger is a sufficient condition for justice, it does seem to be a necessary condition to get the ball rolling.
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One Love
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| Posted 1/11/2007 3:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Vi:
Let's say that Jack hurts Molly so badly that she's paralyzed. He did it on purpose because of some misunderstanding they had. In fact he continually injures her every day and it makes him feel better. Should God be upset with this action? We'd agree, "yes."
Revolted. Disgusted. Yes.
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Vi:
So what are the necessary and sufficient conditions in order for God to stop it? While I don't think anger is a sufficient condition for justice, it does seem to be a necessary condition to get the ball rolling.
Let's use our imaginations. Is it not even possible that what can motivate a person to stop any form of abuse is the 1) SWELL OF LOVE for all people involved and 2) ZEAL for RIGHT-RELATEDNESS...and not anger? Unless we want to say that's it's utterly impossible, we have to say this is a possibility. So then, anger would not be a necessary condition for a response to injustice of any type.
[Digression: Let's clear this up. Once and for all. Here is the Scripture...John 2:13-17
When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father's house into a market!" His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
Zeal. NOT anger! Just making a very important note.]
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/11/2007 3:24 AM (GMT -6) | | ZEAL
dictionary.reference.com/browse/zeal
God is zealous, NOT angry!
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Isaiah 26:11
LORD, your hand is lifted high, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame; let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.
Isaiah 37:32
For out of Jerusalem will come a remnant, and out of Mount Zion a band of survivors. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Isaiah 42:13
The LORD will march out like a champion, like a warrior he will stir up his zeal; with a shout he will raise the battle cry and will triumph over his enemies.
Isaiah 59:17
He put on righteousness as his breastplate, and the helmet of salvation on his head; he put on the garments of vengeance and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.
Isaiah 63:15
Look down from heaven and see, from your lofty throne, holy and glorious. Where are your zeal and your might? Your tenderness and compassion are withheld from us.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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| Posted 1/11/2007 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Vi:
I simply see it as "an emotional response to a grievance"
A "greivance" is a subjective interpretation of an event. There is no OBJECTIVE thing called "grievance". A grievance is a negative apprehension of an event that emerges from a PREVIOUSLY HELD perspective. It is a perceived wrong or complaint.
But Love holds NO RECORD of wrongs.
So whither anger?
This has been my point from the beginning. God cannot believe falsehoods. God doesn't have the faulty perspective that would allow for God to either feel devalued or threatened. Moreover, God doesn't have the faulty perspective that would allow God to be emotionally adversarial to the contingent expressive form of Godself (Creation). (Panentheism)
After all...
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Thanks for the interaction, Vi. Means a lot! 
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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| Posted 1/11/2007 4:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
The premise of your question misses the point I'm trying to make. I think you're confusing/conflating the rational-emotive state that recognizes injustice with one possible strategy to address that injustice. You seem to be asking for any scenario that would require 'anger' AS A RECONCILIATORY STRATEGY... but I'm not arguing that this is what's happening anyway. You're talking ongoing strategy, I'm talking mere emotive recognition of the triggering problem. Just because the apprehension of injustice may correspond in God as anger, does NOT mean that he must take on an adversarial relation toward his beloved.
No, Corey. I am talking about the emotive response to an experience of injustice that emerges from a previously-held perspective about reality. And that's what I'm asking for. What is ONE instance of injustice where anger is the ONLY emotional state that will allow for accurate perception of, interpretation of, and interaction with the injustice? Because for every instance of injustice I conceive of, the emotional states of disgust, sadness, and zeal are all that's need to have MOTIVATION to bring right-relatedness into misrelating situations. I don't see any situation where an emotionally adversarial position towards injustice MUST be taken in order to deal with injustice.
See what I'm saying?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/11/2007 4:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey,
Why do you believe that ANGER is the only way that God recognizes injustice? Aren't there other possibilities?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/11/2007 4:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Is the emphasis in this sentance on the phrase "previously held"? What's the significance of "previously held" as opposed to "immediately apprehended"?
I'm just talking about the beliefs that God has about reality PRIOR TO the emotional response. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/11/2007 4:48 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/11/2007 4:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Okay, maybe this is part of our disconnect. My usage of anger is all about the present moment. There is an appropriate rational-emotive response toward the immediately apprehended state of affairs. Correspondence. What God then decides to do with it is another thing.
The "immediately apprehended state of affairs" INCLUDES how God's self-understanding and understanding of reality up to that point. All of that's in play. And none of this shows that ANGER specifically has to be the appropriate rational-emotive response.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/11/2007 4:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
I hope so. It's just a label. I suspect that the word 'anger' carries different connotations for you than it does for me; it implies strategy, or an ongoing motivation. A grumpy, storming dad, or whatever.
God is not a storming, grumpy dad, Corey. At ANY time.
God is a loving parent who WAITS for his wayward children to come to themselves in the "hellish" pigpen...HOPES they will return soon...and RUNS to them and the first sign of them wanting to come home.
Don't you believe that?
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/11/2007 3:57:03 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/11/2007 5:06 AM (GMT -6) | | huh?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/11/2007 5:15 AM (GMT -6) | | I'll just put this here.
What I'm now hearing from you is this: anger is like unto a "pain-like" response for God to the SPECIFIC occurances of injustice. This is an emotional response that ONLY OCCURS with injustice. Is that what you believe?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/11/2007 5:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok...
I would say that REVULSION is a "pain-like" response of God to injustice...and all other sin. Revulsion (disgust) is an emotional response that perceives misrelation in an experience and internalizes negative feeling from that perception. The difference between revulsion and anger is that revulsion, UNLIKE ANGER, doesn't inherently have an ADVERSARIAL perspective involved. Seriously, Corey. There is no way to get away from the subjective antagonism towards a certain target (person, situation, or state) that exists within anger. It's just there. The emotionally oppositional aspect. There is no reason for God to have this adversarial perspective. None at all. Revulsion fits the bill.
And we didn't even talk about ZEAL!
It's not necessary that it be anger.
See what I'm saying?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/11/2007 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Look at the fruits of belief in divine "anger", Corey. Did you read those sermons? God being vengeful. God abhoring people. Sermons!
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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