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|  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/30/2007 10:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
Let’s think through this in terms of dispositions and the fundamental perspectival relationality that’s a necessary component to all things. No special axe to grind. Let’s just stroll through it, D.
PART I: Being responsibly human
We’re experiential centers of freely disposing personal relationality, right? That is, we’re relatively autonomous persons who possess the capacities (rational, emotional, volitional) for enjoying the highest, most “important” (“importance” in Whiteheadian terms) form of perspectival sociality—love. Such relationality entails an “order” to it which is essentially the “accountability” Jeff and I have been talking about. This is what determines that there are consequences for choices. This is all metaphysically the case, not an incidental or contingent aspect of the coming into being of creaturely love. We should try to spell out in dispositional terms why this is the case. Forget forgiveness for the moment. Let’s first get clear on the dispositional nature of loving relationality vs its negation—unloving misrelationality—and also what is it about a dispositional ontology that makes “accountability” and “consequences” a necessary feature of lovingly creaturely becoming. If we do this, my guess is we’ll be in a position to say, “Oh, so THAT’S what forgiveness is.”
Creaturely loving sociality comes into being (and it must come into being for contingent creatures; we don’t exist necessarily) through the free and responsible exercise (self-disposing) of our wills. We self-dispose toward or away from the highest form of valuation possible—loving, relational, personhood. Self-disposing involves (1) our perceiving ourselves and the world in a particular relation to one another, (2) our assigning some value or importance to the relata (the persons or objects perceived in the world, including ourselves) and the relation, and consequently (3) our choosing, or disposing ourselves, toward or away from these perceived relata in the interest of some perceived value or interest.
Free choice is always purposeful, and that means it’s always relational. A rational and free choice is a choice to relate for some perceived purpose. Even when we misrelate, we do so for some perceived gain, if only for physical pleasure or temporary benefit. It follows that in sinning, or in misrelating, we first must sufficiently misperceive. But for us to be accountable for our misrelating, it must also be the case that there’s enough truth to our perceiving, enough of an accuracy in our perceptions, to make possible our properly relating. So we must also sufficiently perceive. And there you have it—epistemic distance. To be accountable for our actions, the perceptions that explain our actions must be partly accurate and partly inaccurate (not sure inaccurate is the right word, but it'll do). We must be able to perceive our way rationally into rightly AND wrongly relating.
To be human then, is to “self-dispose” or to freely choose to relate in the interest of perceived values.
So far so good?
Tom
(To come: PART II: What it means to rightly and wrongly relate.)
Post Edited (TGB) : 1/30/2007 10:26:52 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/30/2007 12:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | Dude...we are sooo going to agree by the end of this. I love the way you word things. But you ARE the mapmaker. 
Hey, I got a colloquialism for what we are trying to say with the "Where the Spirit is, there is Freedom" idea...
It's in EVERYTHING we see in life!
Check it out...it's almost self-evident.
Ahem...
Whoever you think you are...
Whatever you think you've done...
Whatever you think you've lost...
Know that...
"THERE IS ALWAYS ANOTHER CHANCE FOR YOU."
There is always ANOTHER POSSIBILITY for growth and development.
There is always ANOTHER POSSIBILITY to reconcile and restore.
There is always "ANOTHER CHANCE" to rightly relate!
To yourself and to others.
Despair tries to make us believe that this is not so.
But WHEREVER THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS, there is ANOTHER OPEN POSSIBILE RELATIONSHIP WITH THAT SPIRIT.
God EMPOWERS us to "go for it" again!
God's empowering GRACE to us!
Whooooooooooooo.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/30/2007 12:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: Free choice is always purposeful, and that means it’s always relational. A rational and free choice is a choice to relate for some perceived purpose. Even when we misrelate, we do so for some perceived gain, if only for physical pleasure or temporary benefit. It follows that in sinning, or in misrelating, we first must sufficiently misperceive. But for us to be accountable for our misrelating, it must also be the case that there’s enough truth to our perceiving, enough of an accuracy in our perceptions, to make possible our properly relating. So we must also sufficiently perceive. And there you have it—epistemic distance. To be accountable for our actions, the perceptions that explain our actions must be partly accurate and partly inaccurate (not sure inaccurate is the right word, but it'll do). We must be able to perceive our way rationally into rightly AND wrongly relating.
What you speak of is called "Maya" in Hinduism.
The necessary epistemic distance to make for BECOMING of the contingent form of BRAHMAN.
The two-edged sword of contingent existence.
The religious beliefs aren't as separate as it has been thought.
Oops. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. 
****************
Tom: To be human then, is to “self-dispose” or to freely choose to relate in the interest of perceived values.
This is just the metaphysics playing itself out. ALL THINGS ARE AESTHETIC. That is to say, all things are VALUE-LADEN all becoming experiential centers around pursuing and achieving SATSIFACTION for the sake of FEELING. We are contingent expressive centers that do what God does.
Sounds fine to me, gent.
Carry on. Full speed ahead.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/30/2007 11:43:25 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/30/2007 12:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | Akin to the other thing...
It's never "too late" for anyone to rightly-relate to God.
"TODAY" is the day, and "NOW" is the hour of salvation.
Kairos moments.
Open Possibilities to be experienced. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/30/2007 12:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | How about this.
God is a "WAY" when there seems to be "NO WAY."
That's why...there is ALWAYS a way out of temptation...
and that's why this is true...
For with God, nothing shall be impossible. Luke 1:37
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/30/2007 12:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
---------------
Judas didn't think he had another chance.
Peter did.
See what happened? "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/30/2007 2:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | So...
hopelessness is a false and despairing perception. There's no such thing as reality being objectively hopeless (and that's what irrevocable eternal conscious torment is). 2Cor 3.17 baby.
Gregory MacDonald told me that the 2Cor 3.17 connection HAS to be published as an article.
I said I'll write it, but only under a pseudonym!
Tom
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/30/2007 3:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | Remember me when you come into your kingdom...
 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/30/2007 4:01 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/30/2007 4:07 PM (GMT -6) |   | Let's just go with the pseudonym that was already picked out for us...
You know the one... "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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    |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/30/2007 8:45 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
PART TWO: What it means to ‘relate’ and ‘misrelate’
OK, I have almost no idea where to go from here! Let’s try this…
Given what we said in Part 1, human being consists in freely relating or misrelating and enjoying or suffering the consequences. Yes, there’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t affect the relational, personal quality or becoming that define our characters (like what color socks I wear tomorrow, whether I wash my left or my right armpit fist, stuff like that), but we’re not concerned with that. We want to focus on the relating and misrelating that contribute to the development of who we become.
What’s it mean to properly ‘relate’? Again, given what we said human being is, it’s not too difficult so say. We properly relate when we choose to affirm the value or importance of ourselves and others (and the wider creation). We rightly relate when we recognize the value of those persons and objects we perceive and make affirming their value an expression of our value.
So essentially we’re self-disposing relationally and evaluatively. That means we’re defining ourselves not just with respect to our relations, but even more interdependently, in/with/by our relations. I want to say something like “we ARE our relations” and not just “we are IN relationship.” More specifically, we self-dispose rightly when we decide to act assertively, that is, to assert something by acting, namely, the value of things. But to say something has “value” is to say it has “value in relation to me,” and that amounts to saying it has “value to me,” and that amounts, I think, to saying, “the experience of my own value depends on perceiving, affirming, and celebrating the value of other things.”
That’s rightly relating as far as I can tell. It’s orienting, directing, determining, choosing to affirm and celebrate my own value by affirming the value of others. We do that by promoting the existence and well-being of all things, and we do that by calling all things to the fulfillment of their eschatological ends—unity with God, faith in Christ, and life in the Church.
Misrelating is the negation of all this. Where rightly relating is valuing others at expense to one’s self, misrelating is essentially valuing one's self (or attempting to do so) at the expense of others. One has to misperceive to misrelate. But it’s only misrelating IF the misperception is sufficiently willful. In other words, you don’t misrelate by accident, by failing to affirm the value of a thing because you mistook its value.
Gotta go. American Idol is on.
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 1/31/2007 6:21:52 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/31/2007 2:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: Misrelating is the negation of all this. Where rightly relating is valuing others at expense to one’s self, misrelating is essentially valuing ourselves at the expense of others. One has to misperceive to misrelate. But it’s only misrelating IF the misperception is sufficiently willful. In other words, you don’t misrelate by accident, by failing to affirm the value of a thing because you mistook its value.
Point of clarification, Tom. All misperception has some level of willful action involved. This is simply because we distort, delete, and generalize information all the time. Literally, we see what we WANT or EXPECT to see much of the time. And these expectations are often driven by unconscious and sub-conscious drives. Long story short, there is no despair without willing.
However...
There is a form of "willed ignorance"...going along with the distortion, deletion, and generalization processes we do...
Wait a sec...
I bet that you included this "willed ignorance" INTO the "sufficiently willful", didn't you?
I bet you did. You smart mapmaker, you! 
Carry on. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/31/2007 2:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: To 'rightly relate' is to love.
There is ONE FUNDAMENTAL FREQUENCY...
Of ONE STRING...
And the KEY of that frequency...
Is LOVE. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/31/2007 9:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
Just to summarize 1 and II:
A human being is a relatively autonomous, sentient, self-determining center of perspectival sociality. I’m doubling up items perhaps, but just to get clear.
Relatively autonomous: We don’t exist necessarily. We’re contingent beings. And though much about us is determined by factors outside our will, much about us is determined freely by us. We’re relatively free or autonomous.
Sentient: A being is sentient (in the widest sense) if it consciously and rationally apprehends itself and the world.
Self-determining: At least libertarianly free in some respects. It freely self-disposes or becomes.
Perspectival socialty: I mean a human is a perceiving center of relations, or a relating perceiver, a perceiving relator. We self-dispose, that is, determine our becoming in relationship to the world, on the basis of our perspective (our apprehensions and valuations of ourselves and the world). We “perceive” in that we are conscious of our own individual existence in the world. But our perspective is irreducibly social. We perceive ourselves in relation to other persons and objects in the world. To be human, then, is to (a) perceive ourselves and ourselves in the world, to (b) attribute value to ourselves and the world and the relationship between the two, and to (c) self-dispose in ways we believe will increase what we value and decrease what we devalue.
This last a-c might be said of lower animal life forms to some extent. What’s really unique about human reason, emotions, and volition? It’s just a guess (which makes this all pretty hopeless in terms of a metaphysic I suppose), but what makes the combination of these elements uniquely human is, very simply, the apprehension and appreciation of beauty or value for its own sake AND the intensity of experience that this produces. We are appreciators, evaluators of aesthetics. We are aestheticians (yes, it’s a word). This makes us unique. This is what I’m trying to say in Parts I and II. We ‘evaluate’ ourselves and the world. We apprehend the inherent value of a thing and appreciate it (or not). And we understand that this appreciation defines our meaning and value in the world.
The point of it all, as Whitehead said, is “the perfection of importance.” It’s intuitive and undeniable. It’s what makes humans unique.
Animals, though they may possess a measure of reason, emotion, and volition, do not appreciate value for value’s sake, I don’t think. Hartshorne, however, a prize-winning ornithologist besides being a world-class philosopher, postulated in his 1973 Born to Sing that birds sing not only because of the instinctual communicative survival function it serves, but essentially because they enjoy it. They possess a rudimentary aesthetics. Wild, eh? It wouldn’t surprise me, though I think we’re right to suppose that human being is a more profound experience of value because of the accountability that characterizes it.
Later,
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 1/31/2007 2:29:08 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/31/2007 4:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
PART III(A): Dispositional accountability
OK, so how would a dispositional ontology work out an objective accountability? In terms of what we’ve said so far, what IS accountability and what grounds accountability?
We’re freely self-disposing centers of experience endowed with the reason, emotion, and volition necessary to determining ourselves with respect to the beauty and value of our relationships. We apprehend, evaluate, and then actualize. We are this way because God is perspectival sociality and he’s created us to be like him.
What is accountability then? The first thing that strikes me is the suffix which is common to other dispositions—flexibility, ductility, malleability, pliability, fictility, docility, and other such dispositions.
So let’s start by assuming that “accountability” is itself a disposition?
Exousia, wanna define “disposition” for us?
Comments?
Post Edited (TGB) : 1/31/2007 3:20:04 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/31/2007 7:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
PART III(B): Dispositional accountability
What are we saying when we say persons are accountable? Aren’t we just saying that there are consequences to the choices we make? But what are we saying in dispositional terms when we say this? It looks to me like we’re just affirming what dispositions are. Dispositions mediate between possibility and actuality. So when we self-dispose, we become the place/event/cause of some transition of possibility to actuality, we determine ourselves relationally.
It’s just nature of causation that a certain correspondence obtains between possibility and actuality. That is, it’s true for whatever is actual that it was possible that it become actual. Similarly, it’s true for whatever is possible that it may become actual. Causation (whatever it is), is that which moves via some disposition from possibility to actuality. So for every action, there is a corresponding reaction. For every choice, there is a corresponding coming into being of some actuality, some state of affairs.
Accountability seems to me just to be a subset of this. Accountability says that for every self-disposing choice to move toward value or away from value, to actualize some possible value or to devalue someone or something, there are consequences—for the chooser and for the chooser’s relations.
We want to focus on the consequences that rightly relating (i.e., self-disposing Godward) and misrelating (i.e., self-disposting selfward) have for the chooser, the one doing the self-disposing.
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 1/31/2007 6:08:12 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 2/1/2007 2:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom,
You...are...on...fire.
Straight plasma, baby...
Keep it blazin'.
 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 2/1/2007 2:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | Truth is this:
IMPORTANCE must be respected.
Hence, prioritization.
What does Stephen Covey say?
What does the Bible say?
When a person doesn't understand WHAT'S TRULY IMPORTANT, they will misrelate to life! But if they understand and live by what is truly important, then they will relate rightly to life!
Isn't this EXACTLY what Jesus KEPT trying to tell people?
Don't lay your hearts on this earth...but on things eternal...
Seek FIRST the Kingdom of God...and THEN...
Right?????
Hmmmm....
What's killing the World?
Screwed up PERSPECTIVES.
(That's why Satan is the KING OF FALSEHOOD )
"Sinners" are just people with SCREWED UP PERSPECTIVES such that they can't "keep the MAIN THINGS the MAIN THINGS!"
Any being that operates from a screwed up perspective is going to have a proportional amount of dysfunction in their ACTIONS.
Satan realizes that if he can get people to MISPRIORITIZE because of false beliefs...that people WILL crash unto the rocks of reality sooner or later...and they will be broken.
It happens over and over.
If you don't get the "big rocks" of life...everything else will get taken up with the "little stuff"...
And if there's nothing else...
Priority exists in the Great Commandment.
If God is not of CENTRAL IMPORTANCE...
All else begins to DEVIATE from equilibrium...
And SOME form of despair is ENSURED to appear.
Yep.
So...
Accountability ultimately exists because IMPORTANCE is.
Ain't that right, Tom?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 2/1/2007 2:23:17 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 2/1/2007 3:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here's a thought:
The most powerful and dangerous weapon in the world...is the LIE.
Well-used application of falsehood for misrelating purposes.
A good enough lie can make the most technologically advanced country of the time...be the center of genocide of barbaric, savage proportions.
A good enough lie can make a whole town of people sacrifice their children to the Idol of American Success...at the expense of their own personal sense of eternal worth and beauty.
A good enough lie can torment a person who claims that God is perfect beauty...into saying that this perfectly beautiful God abhors his Children.
Satan has ruled this world with the LIE.
Every since the beginning...
And in some since...
He still DOES.
But for those who know the Way/Truth/Life...
Lies are seen for what they are...
And have NO POWER.
For the Mind of Christ is one of a SOUND MIND...
That APPRECIATES truth, beauty, and right-relatedness.
That's why the showdown was ultimately between Jesus and Satan.
The Consummate Truth relating to the Consummate Liar.
And Truth ALWAYS overcomes falsehood...in the end...
So, LIE is the most powerful, dangerous weapon ever to dwell among Creation...
But, TRUTH makes that weapon absolutely powerless.
And Truth has conquered.
Enjoy the victory today. 
Enough from me.
Carry on, Tom. Doing great! "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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