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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/30/2004 3:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | Heh folks, my daughter (Denay) and I are leaving with a medical missions team to go to Cambodia tomorrow. We'll be gone 10 days. Keep us in prayer as you think about it. We're going to be working with one of my "heros" of the faith, Hyun Tranberg. She's a small, petite, quiet Vietnamese woman whose family came ot the states during the Veitnam war. She earned a medical degree and had a red carpet future layed out for her, but felt God calling her back to her country. She now ministers to Vietnamese refuges who are among the poorest people on the planet. One of the major problems is the spread of AIDS among young girls who are sold into sexual slavery because its the only way their family can survive.
WHC has raised $160,000 to build a medical clinic and school. We'll be bringing supplies and encouragment to Hyuns team and to the several congregations this quiet woman has started.
Thanks all,
Greg
ps. Sorry I haven't been around here much lately. I've been working on two books simultaneously, one with a deadline of March 1 and obsessing with Tom (TGB) on the Logical Hexagon (we'll report our findings in full in several months). 
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/30/2004 4:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
One of the major problems is the spread of AIDS among young girls who are sold into sexual slavery because its the only way their family can survive.
This would be an interesting thing to discuss when you come back, Doc, after you have spent time ministering to and living among these young girls. In many ways this problem gives their lives such a senseless existence since they have no easy way to escape and no real hope for a future. It appears their purpose for living in this world is to bring pleasure to others/survival for their family at the expense of their young, promising futures. Where is God in this?  I have my own theology on this yet I find it helps to understand how others process their theology in the midst of what appears to be a senseless life situation. I would love to hear your reactions when you return. I hope you will consider discussing this mission trip with us here on the board when you return so we might be able to process together.
I thank God for ministries and hearts of people such as Hyun Tranberg!
You can count on me to also be praying for you, Denay, and the rest of the team.
God's blessings to you as you bring medical hope to these people! 
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/31/2004 2:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc (in response to Quest):
quote:
He's in every movement of every soul that is resisting this debacle, working to bring healing where there are wounds, freedom where there is slavery, love where there is callous apathy, hope where there is despair, and worth where there is experienced worthlessness. Whereever the fruit of the Spirit is being manifested and the Kingdom of God is being advanced -- God is in it. Whereever the works of the flesh and the kingdom of darkness is being manifested, Satan is in it.
Were that it were that simple, Doc. But you know better, I'm sure.
Let the Reign of God be manifested in you and those whom you are going to serve.
Thoughts and prayers go with you.
Ciao,
PS: Quest, let's say life IS meaningless. Just for the sake of argument. Let's say that there IS no afterlife. No big reckoning of good and evil. Let's say that gratuitous evil just IS...along with all the other warfare muckity muck. Why NOT spend the meaningless time that we have left manifesting what the Reign of a loving, yet self-limited (read: omnipotent) God WOULD look like? Surely that's at least as much an alternative as spending all of our time watching "American Idol" or "The Simple Life"...right? Life sucks, but it's beautiful, too. Let's love radically and fight the night until we die. Ain't nothin' better to do...right?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Shine
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 1/31/2004 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Keep advancing for His light is in you. Many prayers to all those who are making a difference for His Kingdom.
Shine
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/13/2004 3:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for all the prayers folks. Denay and I had a very moving, meaningful, beautiful time. We were "on the field" about 15 hours a day and accomplished a good deal. Hyen, the doctor from WHC who runs the medical side of the ministry there, said it would have taken her about 4 months to accomplish what we accomplished in a week.
So many memorable episodes, I can't begin to review them here. I'll just say this: as in Haiti, the poverty among the Vietnamese refugees we worked with IS UNBELIEVABLE. Combodia is a very poor country to start with. Incredible poverty in Pnom Phen where we stayed -- yet this is the wealthiest part of Combodia. But the Vietnamese refugees live FAR below even THIS. It was heart breaking.
Now, in response to Quest 's question about Where is God in the child sexual slavery, I said:
He's in every movement of every soul that is resisting this debacle, working to bring healing where there are wounds, freedom where there is slavery, love where there is callous apathy, hope where there is despair, and worth where there is experienced worthlessness. Whereever the fruit of the Spirit is being manifested and the Kingdom of God is being advanced -- God is in it. Whereever the works of the flesh and the kingdom of darkness is being manifested, Satan is in it.
To this Meph responds:
Were that it were that simple, Doc. But you know better, I'm sure.
What does this mean? I honestly don't have a clue. Or worse, the only clue I can come up with is... well, here it is. If its too "simple" to suggest that God is aggressively at work AGAINST this debacle, are you suggesting he is also in some sense FOR it? What's the alternative. God is against it but "also"... also WHAT???
I rode on the back of mophead, driven by a Vietnamese, through a village that was known for its child-prostitution. Its mainly visited by foreigners and most of the young girls are Vietnamese. As we drove through it, four times men came out into the street to "flag" me that they were open for business. Seeing a white man on the back of the mophead led them to the conclusion that THAT was what I was there for.
I can't communicate the emotion this produced in me. I've never felt it before. I have no words. I could imaginatively enter into the world of a predator. What if I WAS looking for a little girl? It was like I was role playing the pedophile. The sickening evil the thought produced in me was nauseating, grieving and even horrifying. And it produced RAGE in me... toward the flagging men, but even more toward the abject poverty that is forcing people into this grotesque system.
If I experienced this degree of sickness and rage.... what must GOD experience?
To suggest that God is anything but AGAINST this... to imply that this is too simple...
If there is one ounce of God's being that is not AGAINST this, I don't know God. So no, I don't "know better." If THIS demonic evil is not something I can simply say "God is against..." then we can't ever say God is for or against anything.
I'm hoping I missed Meph's point. Maybe he is trying to say something like "given the constraints on God he here has to sacrafice a rook to save the Queen." Maybe this is the complexity he's referring to. Fine. But I don't see how this would in any way qualify my response to Quest as simplistic.
Sorry, given the intensity of my recent experience, this sort of hit a nerve. I hope you can understand why I would might have a little trouble keeping this 'academic.'
I love you Meph... completely...
but [sometimes....
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/13/2004 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc's last post encouraged me to ask a question I asked over on a different thread in regard to Selah's feeling totally blessed by God.... I wrote that I am VERY happy that God has blessed some people so abundantly but my struggle is with situations such as the Doc shared. What about people who are not blessed? What about children who are abused all through their childhood and end up dying from an abusive parent? What about children who are born different from other children and how about the parents of these children? How about parents who lose their children in a fire or automobile accident? Why are some so blessed while others are sold into child sexual slavery?
If anyone will respond to this I would be very happy.
BTW, I take it slightly personal that Doc didn't give ANY response to the thread I started to hear about his experience on the mission trip. Oh well, poor me. As the saying goes, "Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, I think I'll just eat some worms." | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/13/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc quote:
Quest, consider this: How could anyone be liking you or NOT liking you on this board since nobody knows YOU? If a person doesn't respond they either didn't see it or wasn't moved to respond to what you said. Either way, noting that you felt overlooked in the process is... well, misguided
SHOOT! I came back on to quickly make another post because I seriously was kidding about that last part in my post -- seriously! But, well, you saw it before I had time to make this post. I forgot that nobody knows me or my sense of humor. As for the other thread with TGB, I was trying to help him with his question and wasn't sure if I had helped or not.
Now on the lighter side Doc, how would you answer my serious question? This has been bugging me for a while. Why so much uneven distribution in the blessing area? Since some of us cannot make your sermon, what about discussing the issue here too? Maybe you'll get some more ideas for your sermon as well. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/13/2004 9:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Quest: your question seems to presuppose that God is doing both the blessing and the condemning. I do believe it is more complex than that; it doesn't account for the free will of men who made the situation the way it is.
We each are born into situations. It is not the situation, but what we each make of it. By and large, I find christians read God's will into too many things.
For instance, I have had people tell me they really wanted it to rain on certain day and, when it did, they praised God that he answered their prayers. While its nice that it happened, it is simply very hard for me to believe that God changed an entire weather pattern because one person wanted it to rain. What about the person who doesn't like driving in the rain? Or the christian who gets into an accident because of the rain?
I thank God for the blessings of this life because he created this world and keeps it running. But I think most things happen through our own wills and the natural course of things. We can be blessed if we live a life of intergrity and purpose. But that would come about because we draw closer to God and not because God simply decides to bless us (and curse someone else). God is not a player of favorites. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/13/2004 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | | I do want to add, though, that I do agree with Tigress that words are pretty pathetic when stacked against children sold into slavery. For me, though, such activity reflects less on God than on the horrible state of the human condition. We get ourselves into these horrible messes; why should we expect God to bail us out if we care little to change the situation? | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/13/2004 3:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Since Doc posted the same thing twice (at two different times) it leads me to believe that he didn't like my first reply so I'll try it again!
Doc, have you ever heard the old saying "Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, I think I'll just eat some worms."? I really didn't mean to imply that nobody likes me ... seriously. And I can guarantee I wouldn't eat worms if I was on Survivor. You're right, nobody knows my personality consequently they don't know my perhaps (warped) sense of humor.
On the other thread with TGB I was hoping that the way in which someone had once answered a similar question I had would now bless Tom. He was struggling with the question about Carli on that thread, as I am struggling with my question about injustice and poverty. I was waiting for a reply back from him because I had hoped that bible passage might help him. Doesn't everybody respond the way I do?
Now, as to the responses I have received from feelinahole and Tigress, thank you! I understand the part about free choice of agents having an impact and result in the tragic consequences. However, the part that has been bugging me is that I often hear testimonies of how God has totally blessed a person or how God has completely healed someone and I praise God for their good fortune. Yet their testimonies make me wonder that if God has the power to bless and heal why then doesn't he have the power to prevent or at least to guide the free will choices in such a way that horrible things don't have to result? Freely I hear people say that GOD has blessed them or answered their prayer yet often these same folks say God doesn't cause hardships. How can that be? Don't you sometimes think we conveniently put God into the picture when it fits our agenda? There are two sides to this too. Some testify to God's continual, abundant blessings while others blame God for every tragedy that happens. WHERE IS GOD IN THIS? | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/13/2004 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc,
I was being silly with the second response to your second post. But, hey, if my second answer sounds better to you, than you can have that one. The should have really been in that last post.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/13/2004 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Oh, and one more thing, I wasn't meaning that people shouldn't testify to the blessings God has given to them.  We are to rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn.
It's just that the blessings don't seem to balance and sometimes I wonder WHY especially when you hear of child sexual slaves that end up dying a horrid death from AIDS. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 2/13/2004 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Doc's last post encouraged me to ask a question I asked over on a different thread in regard to Selah's feeling totally blessed by God.... I wrote that I am VERY happy that God has blessed some people so ...
If anyone will respond to this I would be very happy.
One clarification on this "totally blessed" thing. I guess it's important to say that (perhaps) "blessing" is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think many people would label me as "totally blessed" for sure. I, on the other hand, label myself as blessed because of my unique perspective. I've learned a lot about being content with little and with much...to me, that makes me blessed. I look at my two healthy children who love me and love God, THAT makes me blessed. I love books and I have a library in my backyard, that makes me blessed. And so on.
Now, by other standards, I might be labeled a poor/boundary-challenged, overcommitted single mom who failed at the American Dream because she chose health over wealth and eternal life over temporal comfort. For many, including my parents, I am the opposite of blessed because they see my daily struggles as proof that fits their personal belief grid (the meaning of blessed is ...). But, to someone in an underdeveloped country, I'm Exceedingly Blessed (and they see my lack of struggles as proof that fits their personal belief grid).
know what I mean?
love
selah 
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/13/2004 6:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Tonight I have been distracted from doing my work on the computer because I find myself caught up in the pull of this discussion board (trying to catch up in reading through some of the posts...) After this post I will have to call it quits for a while because I have a deadline to meet.
Anyway, Selah, I do know what you mean about blessing being in the eye of the beholder. I've been to underdeveloped countries and have seen the joy and hope that many of the believers have in spite of their poverty and famine. To be honest, I have even questioned to myself what they have to be so joyful and hopeful about. Yet on the other side of the pendulum we have witnessed in the media multiple times that some of the loneliest and most unhappy people are among the rich and the famous. Blessing is a subjective thing.
The part that I am trying to understand is how the balance can be so off kilter; the polar extremes of suffering/pain verses health/abundance be so incredibly wide. I know we each must play the hand dealt but why do some people get dealt such difficult hands?
I am finding that deism is starting to sound the most sensible. You know what I mean?
Bye for now!  | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/13/2004 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | | Quest: I fully agree with what you are saying. I think christians are completely arbitrary about the whole blessing. As far as deism is concerned, I find I have no problem seeing God that way as far as a general view of miracles and his intervening in this life APART from working in us. Thats how I see it. | | Back to Top | | |
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