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One Love
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   Posted 3/30/2007 9:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
:-) 
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One Love
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   Posted 3/31/2007 7:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If Contingent Reality were truly a supramental activity of the Mind of God (ie. the Universe is a continuously-maintained Divine Thought/Dream)...

and we were to realize this...

wouldn't THAT shut down our tremendous EGOISM and arrogant sense of SELF-SUFFICIENCY...once and for all?

Hmmmm...probably not.

I should never underestimate the power of humanity to live in self-centeredness.

biggrin 


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Post Edited (One) : 3/31/2007 7:35:53 AM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/31/2007 8:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One said...
If Contingent Reality were truly a supramental activity of the Mind of God (ie. the Universe is a continuously-maintained Divine Thought/Dream)...
I'm not persuaded to buy into that description.
 
 
It leaves out something necessary for describing mankind: Christ called us 'gods.'
 



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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 3/31/2007 9:20:02 AM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/31/2007 8:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I'm thinking of responsibility.

Life in God's Terms    
Written by Dr. Albert Rossi   

This week, Come Receive The Light will speak with Dr. Albert Rossi, Professor of Pastoral Theology at St. Vladimir’s Seminary, about the question, “How do we do the work of God?” His answer is that our calling in life is to know and believe in Jesus Christ, as revealed in the Scriptures and interpreted by the Orthodox Church. The Word of God is a treasure, and we are called to be treasure hunters.

Listen Now Listen Now (Real Audio) or Listen Now (mp3)!

 



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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/31/2007 8:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
Trying to ABIDE in Him.


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Similitude
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   Posted 3/31/2007 9:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ONE: and we were to realize this...

wouldn't THAT shut down our tremendous EGOISM and arrogant sense of SELF-SUFFICIENCY...once and for all?

Jeff: When you think of the extent to which people can be egoistic about attributes which they have no voluntary control over, I don't see how such a "realization" would change a thing for many people. Or take, e.g., the delight which some can receive from "winning" by cheating even when there is no material reward (like money) for winning--just the sheer vain "glory" of having "beat" someone. Yet they still delight in such winning even though they know they didn't really beat their opponent.

Pow: I'm thinking of responsibility.

Jeff: Yes, I would think true volitional activity is one class of activity that can not be accounted for by "continuous maintenance" by God. Something has to be truly caused by us if we are truly free.


 

Post Edited (jefscott) : 3/31/2007 9:18:21 AM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/31/2007 9:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Even animals have souls, but we are created to be temples of the Spirit.


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Tom
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   Posted 3/31/2007 12:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is the real crux, Jeff. HOW do the pure thoughts of God behave independently of God's will? The dispositional centers of experience have to be sufficiently independent to ground personal identity and responsibility. God's got to "let go" enough and at the right levels to make calling US persons in our own right meaningful. I'm not saying there's no possible idealist explanation here. I just don't know what it is.

Tom


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 3/31/2007 3:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not sure I'm following you, Tom. But if you're saying that a radically idealist account of experience is hard to explain, I agree. I'm just emphasizing the fact that dreams are typically explained by the causal agency of the dreamer's mind (though the dreamer's mind can be affected by other stimuli). But free-will in us seems to imply that we are true causal agents and, hence, acting distinctly from God's causative, mental agency to that extent. In that sense, God's dream would not be completely analogous to our dreams if we have true free-will, like we believe. Because no "person" in our dream ever acts of real volition, supposedly.

I was thinking that is what POW was getting at.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 3/31/2007 6:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am not understanding the problems. Maybe I'm just missing something...

What's the major beef here?

Genuinely confused...

Is this about whether WE are "real" or not? What's going on?
 
Oh, well.  Let's all just live in unconditional love and surrender to God.
 
First things first.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Post Edited (One) : 3/31/2007 6:34:47 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/31/2007 11:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One said... 
Oh, well.  Let's all just live in unconditional love and surrender to God.
 
First things first.

 

QUOTE  (Prayers By The Lake, Nikolai Velimirovic )

http://www.sv-luka.org/praylake/pl72.htm

LXXII

Deliver my soul from self-delusion, my God, so that my body may also be delivered from bodily sin.

Deliver my soul from foolish arrogance and burning anger, and my body will neither behave foolishly nor burn.

The soul designed the body to be a portrait of herself, to be the organ of her speech. The body is mute and inert, either for good or for evil, if the soul will not speak.

The body knows nothing of adultery, if the soul does not tell it. Adultery is carried out in the heart; the body only repeats in its clumsy way what has been woven with fine threads in the mysterious chambers of the heart.1

My neighbors, look upon a woman the way a woman looks upon herself and self-delusion will fall from your eyes like scales.2 look upon every being from within that being, and you will look, not with desire, but with compassion. You, O God, have sanctified marriage, and You have also sanctified celibacy.3

Those, who have the wisdom and the strength to use all the life bestowed on them by You for serving You, You have blessed.

And those, who are unable to keep within themselves all the life given to them, You have blessed, so that they can share it and transfer it to new beings, through a wife.

Truly it is self-delusion for a man to think that a woman attracts him. Indeed, it is the unused life in a man -- which drives a man toward a woman, for life does not wish to remain unused. You are life, O my God, and life is light. You are light, O my God, and You do not wish to be hidden in darkness and kept from shining.

Blessed is the man, who knows You within himself, and gives free rein to You to shine in his soul and in his body.

It is not important, whether you shine in one body or in shared flesh -- You merely wish to shine and illuminate the world and to fill it with Your life and Your strength.

Blessed is the woman from whose eyes self-delusion falls and who knows a man the way a man knows himself, the woman who rejects desire and fills herself with compassion. She too keeps life within herself, with fear and dignity, as though she were keeping heaven within herself.

Blessed is everyone who comes to know in due time that adultery defiles and kills life.

One does not fool around with God. It is safer to fool around with fire than with God.

Nor is life, which comes from God, a narcotic for instant stupefactions, after which self-delusion manifests itself again and again; while shame and humiliati6n fall like heavy stones on the heart, emptied of one demented desire.

Deliver my soul from self-delusion, my God, so that my body may also be delivered from bodily sin.

_________________________________________________________

1. Cf. Matt. 5:27-30.

2. Cf. Acts 9:18.

3. Cf. Matt. 19:3-12, John 2:1-11, and 1 Cor. 7.

 

 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/31/2007 11:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Right, D?


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One Love
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   Posted 4/1/2007 8:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yep, B. :-)


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

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