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PotOnWheel
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Posted 4/2/2007 8:07 PM (GMT -6)

Spirituality

The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. ...
www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7114.asp

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 4/2/2007 8:09 PM (GMT -6)

QUOTE;

"Theosis describes the spiritual pilgrimage in which each person becomes ever more perfect, ever more holy, ever more united with God. It is not a static relationship, nor does it take place only after death. On the contrary, theosis is a movement of love toward God which begins for each Christian with the rites of Baptism and which continues throughout this life, as well as the life which is to come. Salvation means liberation from sin, death, and evil. Redemption means our repossession by God. In Orthodoxy, both salvation and redemption are within the context of theosis. This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god."

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 4/2/2007 10:20 PM (GMT -6)

"Orthodoxy believes that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God which is known as theosis or deification."

That quote from goarch.org RULES OUT any element of having "arrived."

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 4/2/2007 10:22 PM (GMT -6)

"Theosis describes the spiritual pilgrimage in which each person becomes ever more perfect, ever more holy, ever more united with God. It is not a static relationship..."

Language becomes strained when one speaks of "ever more perfect/holy."

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 4/2/2007 10:24 PM (GMT -6)

"The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine."

(o)

One Love
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Posted 4/3/2007 7:11 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for your comments, POW. It is important to note that theosis is a process. Though there are solid dynamics that occur the journey, the journey itself is without end. There are multitudes of glory that we've yet to experience. Also, you are right that the position is not pantheistic. It is panentheistic. There's a helpful distinction.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

One Love
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Posted 4/3/2007 7:18 AM (GMT -6)

Please don't forget the original aspect of my question. Reposting the hopefully clarified question:\

------------------------

I'm not asking the question about whether or not it's possible for theosis to occur. Tom is right the Jesus is the demonstration that it's possible. My question deals more with the subjective understanding (along with the behavior that flows from that) of a person living CURRENTLY in the world who is fully "lead" by the Spirit of Christ. If there were Jane Doe who lived in San Francisco who, by the grace of God, acheived the unitive dimension of the "spiritual ladder", how do you think she would perceive herself and her world? Would she identify herself with God in an idiosyncratic way? How would she relate to her previous persona (Jane Doe) from that new perspective? How would this person live a day-to-day existence with job, family and all that? How would this person relate to their fellow human beings? How would this person express perfect, unconditional love to all beings at all times? What about perfect resignation to the Will of the Spirit?

I want to see what we think this can look like. I'm hoping that this is more clear. If not, I'll try again.

------------------------------

Again, I'm just trying to get a handle on some of what we think this would look like...how we would know it if we saw it. No one talking about "arrival" or anything like that. I am asking what it possibly may look like. Of course there are a number of forms it can take. But I wanted to see what people here thought those forms may look like.

Tom
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Posted 4/3/2007 8:48 AM (GMT -6)

One: Both of dimensions of oneness are grounded in the same reality: The one Spirit of God.

Tom: That’s not saying very much since being “grounded” in the one Spirit can mean a many things—we ARE the Spirit, our perfection is brought about BY the Spirit, we’re distinct from but one WITH the Spirit.

Do you think ALL categorical distinctions are illusory?

-----------------

One: Does having "oneness" between two things mean being that two things have to be identical in every respect? No.

Tom: Good, because it sure sounds like this is what you were intimating.

One: All I'm saying is this:

--Necessary Existence is spirit.
--We are contingent expressions of Necessary Existence that are "spirit beings."
--We (being spirit beings) have a fundamental "bipolar relational unity"(Loder) with Necessary Existence.

Tom: I can get with that if it’s unpacked rightly. ;o)

---------------------

One: 1. Wasn't Jesus completely "one with God" before his glorification, either the Transfiguration or the Resurrection?

Tom: Hmmm. You don’t think there’s ANY different, eh? I mean, Jesus was the INcarnation of a PRE-existing PERSON (second person of the trinity). That person already is by necessity (necessary existence! Remember?) “one with God.” He IS God. So I don’t think Jesus is an example of theosis (unless I’m misunderstanding theosis). I take theosis to be the becoming, the journey, of contingent human personhood into oneness with God.

But I deny that in Christ’s case there is any “contingent human personhood” to speak of. The “person” we see in the historical Jesus is none other than the eternal Son. The Son takes on the attributes of human nature, not another human person.

One: 2. In thinking about the Essence and Energies of God...how they are distinct but part of One reality...it seems to me that the line of continuity is the Holy Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is DEFINITELY part of the Essential nature of God. And the Holy Spirit is DEFINITELY the portal by which we partake in the Energetic nature of God.

Tom: OK.

One: Now....for a human being to fully submit to and continously live in the ONE Spirit of God all the time...to be completely CONSUMED with this Holy Fire...

Tom: Consumed? I get consumed? Sounds like some sorts of Hindu Moksha.

One: For a human being to rest transparently in the One Spirit's wisdom, power, and grace...such that their life is truly not their own...

Tom: What do you mean by “life”? And what do you mean by “truly”? And what do you mean by “own”? I don’t see these can be taken absolutely if “I” am to exist and “I” am not equivalent to God, i.e., not divine.

Spell it out in dispositional terms for me. I AM a sentient center of volition, disposing myself in this or that direction. I take theosis basically to mean that I dispose myself in harmony with the divine disposition. I want what God wants. I love what God loves. And yes, the Spirit accomplishing this in and through me. But there’s still a “me” to speak of. DUDE, as much as you SAY there’s a real non-divine subject, the human person, on one side of the relationship, it still looks and feels to me like this really isn’t the case in your view. I’ll need some time to watch it evolve and see where it goes!

One: For a human being to see God everywhere (including seeing the Image of God in all human beings) and knowing nothing else...How is this NOT to experience theosis?

Tom: Glorification? Glorification has NOTHING to do with completing theosis?

I don’t deny that we’re in the process of becoming like Christ and One with God here and now. If being in this process is theosis, then yeah, we experience that, though we won’t finish the trip here. I thought theosis was reserved for the final act of becoming, i.e., glorification.

Tom

Tom
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Posted 4/3/2007 9:06 AM (GMT -6)

Tell me this, One-

When all this theoticizing is done and I’m reeeeeally one with God, as one as I’m ever going to be, with there be an I/Thou relationship the EXISTENCE OF WHICH is not necessary? I don’t mean the FORM of which; that’s obviously not necessary, I mean the identity of the self, or person, which constitutes the “I” that’s in relationship to God (who is the “thou”). Is that “I” just the eternal “I am” in a contingent form? Or does the contingency include the coming into being of an “I” that is OTHER than the “I am,” i.e., a non-divine person)? Is your I/Thou really just God standing on both sides of the relationship, in necessary form on one side and contingent form on the other?

Tom

One Love
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Posted 4/3/2007 10:50 AM (GMT -6)

biggrin

Tom
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Posted 4/3/2007 11:11 AM (GMT -6)

Sooooo...?

Tom

One Love
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Posted 4/3/2007 11:20 AM (GMT -6)

Let's look at it this way...

In the end analysis, wouldn't it be God interacting with God, even IF we lived dualistically?

Let's say that we grant that somehow human spirits are COMPLETELY SEPARATE AND SEPARABLE from the Holy Spirit.

Cool.

Assuming this...

If we saw everyone we see as Jesus (which is what we are TOLD to do)...and we see OURSELVES as Jesus (which we are told to do)...

Then the whole INTENT is for us to be different expressions of GOD interacting with and serving different expressions of GOD.

If everyone solidifies into unity with the Spirit and relates out of that, then it would ACTUALLY be God-in-human interacting with God-in-human.

Isn't this true?

Post Edited (One) : 4/3/2007 11:48:33 AM (GMT-5)

BBBCanada
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Posted 4/3/2007 1:26 PM (GMT -6)

I can jump on board with that (as long as we can still retain our separate individuality and that doesn't seem to contradict what you are saying). I've often wondered what this "divinization" of the Church would look like. Hmmm....interesting.

Question: What exactly do you mean by, "...different expressions of GOD interacting with and serving different expressions of GOD?" This seems to me to retain the separateness of individual ontology.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

One Love
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Posted 4/3/2007 2:47 PM (GMT -6)

Brandon:
What exactly do you mean by, "...different expressions of GOD interacting with and serving different expressions of GOD?" This seems to me to retain the separateness of individual ontology.

That's the question.

If one wants to be ultimately dualistic about it, then one can retain the separateness such that the human individual and the Divine Individual are TWO ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

If one wants to be ultimately non-dualistic about it, then one can say that the separateness is a PERSPECTIVAL UNDERSTANDING in a bi-polar relational unity between the human individual and the Divine Individual. (Complementarity)

The end analysis is the same:
To become one with God in this life means to grow in effectively EMBODYING AND EXPRESSING the dispositional reality of the Divine Individual by singlemindedly seeking and doing the Will of God, using the physical, mental, and spiritual tools of the human individual as the means of expression.

Would you agree with this?

-------------

Something else...

If the purity of heart is to will one thing (SK)...

What happens if ALL you will is God, in all circumstances?

What happens then?

One Love
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Posted 4/3/2007 3:55 PM (GMT -6)

This guy is going to Hell for sure.

How dare he talk about Jesus and the Spirit in such a way!

"Christ-Consciousness"
by Swami Krishnananda
Message given on Christmas-Eve, the 24th of December, 1973.

www.swami-krishnananda.org/fest/fest_20.html

BBBCanada
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Posted 4/3/2007 4:21 PM (GMT -6)

Hmmm...I can agree if we have a "God-in-human interacting with God-in-human." That seems to me to be plain 2+2=4 math. But I don't know if I can agree that the "I" "loses" it's own identity in the theosis process. And that seems to be what you are saying. Let me say it like this. From my understanding of Buber, the "I" and the "Thou" are not independent (separate) substances somehow enriched through encounter. Rather the "I" has actuality only as COACTUALITY. There is no "I-as-such." The only "I" is the "I" in relation. HOWEVER, there is no MUTUAL ABSORPTION within the "I" and "Thou." Rather the "Distance" represented by the hyphen is maintained allowing for the space that respects the freedom and inwardness of the other. That means that the "Between," the "Distance" the "hyphen" is the basis of genuine community. You seem to collapse the separate identity into the other.

By positing "divine individual" or the "contingent expression of Necessary Existence" what do you mean by this? Here's what I'm hearing you say:

Necessary Existence is spirit=we are first and foremost spirit contra bodily existence? Or are you saying God is Necessary existence because God is Spirit?

We are contingent expressions of Necessary Existence that are "spirit beings."=We are "little gods" because we are contingent on the Necessary Existence who is God who is Spirit. Thus we are divine individuals?

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

PotOnWheel
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Posted 4/3/2007 5:39 PM (GMT -6)

Beloved, now we are the sons of God; and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: But we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(o)

One Love
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Posted 4/4/2007 12:46 PM (GMT -6)

Brandon:
Necessary Existence is spirit=we are first and foremost spirit contra bodily existence? Or are you saying God is Necessary existence because God is Spirit?

Both are implied in the same reality.

*************************************

Brandon:
We are contingent expressions of Necessary Existence that are "spirit beings."=We are "little gods" because we are contingent on the Necessary Existence who is God who is Spirit. Thus we are divine individuals?

In my mind, we are contingent instantiations of Individual Consciousness in a bi-polar relational unity with the Necessary Individual Consciousness.

Tom
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Posted 4/4/2007 12:59 PM (GMT -6)

One: In my mind, we are contingent instantiations of Individual Consciousness in a bi-polar relational unity with the Necessary Individual Consciousness.

Tom (crying and sniffling): Makes ya wanna, wanna shed a tear, it's so beautiful. Hey I feel a song coming on. Sing along!

To the tune of the CHORUS in the Beattles' "We all live in a Yellow Submarine"...

We all live in a bipolar consciousness,
bipolar consciousness,
bipolar consciousness,

We all live in a bipolar consciousness,
bipolar consciousness,
bipolar consciousness.

Now try a VERSE...

We all saaaaail contingentlyyyyy,
in a bipoooolar consciousneeeess;
Instantiaaaated in a dreeeeeeam,
of necessaaaary existeeeeence.

Together now!...

We all live in a bipolar consciousness,
bipolar consciousness,
bipolar consciousness,

We all live in a bipolar consciousness,
bipolar consciousness,
bipolar consciousness.

Turn the music up! Come on, everybody out on the floor now, let's boogie down!

One Love
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Posted 4/4/2007 1:11 PM (GMT -6)

One Love
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Posted 4/4/2007 1:32 PM (GMT -6)

Row, row, row your boat,
Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.

REMIXED...

Live, live, live My Life,
Gently along the broken timestream,
Let joy, joy, joy, endless joy be...
because the "beautiful struggle" of Life is but a Dream.

One Love
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Posted 4/4/2007 3:48 PM (GMT -6)

Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods" '? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

One Love
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Posted 4/4/2007 7:50 PM (GMT -6)

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

One Love
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Posted 4/4/2007 7:54 PM (GMT -6)

It's the Spirit, y'all.

The key is the Father's Spirit.

The Spirit of Wisdom.

The Spirit of Christ.

The Shekinah.

SPIRIT

aka

DISPOSITION

This is what grounds ALL oneness-in-diversity.

The ENTIRE MOBIUS STRIP is Spirit, Tom.

Ain't that right?

Post Edited (One) : 4/4/2007 7:59:50 PM (GMT-5)

Corey
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Posted 4/5/2007 7:45 AM (GMT -6)

I apologize for not keeping up with this thread; I've only just skimmed it. What if the "oneness" God intends for us with him is a sort of harmonic resonance? This metaphor would seem to better maintain diversity while affirming unity. An orchestra of single individuals perfectly fitting together. God as the fundamental frequency, the music of the spheres. Spiritual string theory.

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