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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/1/2007 1:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks, Jeff. Others, please share too. 
A thought.
What is eternal life? What really IS it?
What did Jesus say?
Eternal life is the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.
Why is that?
Because when one learns about the Self of the One God...
they are simulataneously learning about THEMSELVES and all REALITY.
How can it be otherwise if we are the Image of God (fractal stuff)?
From living this knowledge RELATIONALLY...
One can begin to live the Life of God in the Spirit...bringing Eternity into the temporal.
Sons and Daughters of God.
"You are gods."
Yeah.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/1/2007 3:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Wow.
Frankly, Enoch and Mary are all that come to mind.
"For the rest of us" I have to fall back on the victorious struggle Paul mentions:
Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
I have too many sins to hope for more than theosis on a moment by moment basis. (The eastern view has three levels, but there is no staying on a high plane any more than Paul indicated of himself.) Struggle and be victorious by the Spirit over temptation. Struggle for the healing of your own sins. And struggle for the salvation of one another, bearing one another's sins by forgiving and bearing up under the weaknesses of eachother.
The Fathers say that NO ONE is saved by themself.
So, you've got to change your question from one of what an individual looks like... to what the Body looks like. I think.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/1/2007 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
So, you've got to change your question from one of what an individual looks like... to what the Body looks like. I think.
The Body is formed by the synergistic working of it's members, which are systems in and of themselves. Talking about the individual-in-community is appropriate...as long as it's never ultimately divorced from the community which IS the Body.
************************************
Brandon quoting...
Our self-awareness is like a "partial zone of light within us, ever in fluid expansion or recession, surrounded by a penumbra of shadow shading off into an (at present) impenetratable darkness" only to be gradually and increasingly illuminated as we approach the true light.
Nice.
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Tom:
One: What do you think it would look like for a human being currently on earth to be fully "lead" by the Spirit of Christ from moment-to-moment continously? I am not asking the question about whether or not you feel that this is truly possible for us. I'm asking the "what if" question about what it would look like if it were assumed to be possible for us.
Tom: There's no need to ask "what if." We need only ask, "Since then, what?" because Jesus IS the answer to your question. Jesus IS what a human being totally led by the Spirit would look like. So it's obviously possible for human being to get to that. It GOT to that already.
I'm not understanding the "Since then, what". Could you explain?
And I'm asking about a person who is NOT Jesus who grows in theosis with the Spirit. I'm wondering what they could look like, from the perspectives here.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/2/2007 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | I think that I need to clarify. Tom, help me if you will.
I'm not asking the question about whether or not it's possible for theosis to occur. Tom is right the Jesus is the demonstration that it's possible. My question deals more with the subjective understanding (along with the behavior that flows from that) of a person living CURRENTLY in the world who is fully "lead" by the Spirit of Christ. If there were Jane Doe who lived in San Francisco who, by the grace of God, acheived the unitive dimension of the "spiritual ladder", how do you think she would perceive herself and her world? Would she identify herself with God in an idiosyncratic way? How would she relate to her previous persona (Jane Doe) from that new perspective? How would this person live a day-to-day existence with job, family and all that? How would this person relate to their fellow human beings? How would this person express perfect, unconditional love to all beings at all times? What about perfect resignation to the Will of the Spirit?
I want to see what we think this can look like. I'm hoping that this is more clear. If not, I'll try again.
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Brandon:
Well, I put those quotes up there for a reason. Being that we are limited embodied spirits we will never be able to fathom the spirit of God such that we will never be completely conscious of "our selves" as God is conscious of us. This means that unless we "step into the "visual horizon" of God-self in which we see ourselves as God sees us, we shall never see ourselves as we really and truly are. That, it seems, pre-empts your question. For to be totally lead of the Spirit we would need to do the above. If anything, to "continually be lead of the Spirit means that we increasingly discover not only the world outside of us (which is a very spiritual thing to do) but also the self within us as unique amongst other persons of the world.
I don't think I'm understanding this. Could you break it down for me? Thanks.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 4/2/2007 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't know if I would say that there would be NO MORE ignorant "I." I also said that we will never be completely conscious of ourselves as God is of us. It would be the opposite of that. As we know God more we know ourselves more but I don't think the ignornant "I" is completely done away with. Augustine said, "Let me know thee O God, let me know myself." Calvin stated, that "the knowledge of God and that of ourselves are connected...without knowledge of self there is no knowledge of God." I interpret THAT as a reciprocral illumination.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 4/2/2007 11:27:40 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 4/2/2007 12:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon: I don't know if I would say that there would be NO MORE ignorant "I."
Tom: I think D means no more dysfunctional, despairing "I." That's how I'd take it. He might mean no more "I" period as well, and that concerns me.
I think sometimes a revelation of some new perspective can be so enlightening and empowering that we temporarily lose sight of other aspects of truth. I think unity or oneness with God can be so startling that we're tempted to say God's perspective will one day be the ONLY perspective, and I think that's mistaken. I'm not sure this describes D because I don't completely understand what he's even saying! I do, however, think the reality of other, non-God, perspectives freely disposing their "selves" in love constitutes the beauty God seeks to achieve in creating at all. So I don't think the goal of creation is God's getting back to what he had before creation, viz., just God, just God's one perspective, period.
If theosis ends up with God, period, and no distinct contingent "other" (i.e., other perceiving selves, other centers of volition and experience disposing themselves in love and freedom), then why create at all? God already had THAT to begin with. So theosis cannot, to my mind, mean the "sum total of reality" will be what it originally was prior to creation, viz., just God, just ONE perceiving subject or self. Paul's "and so God will be all in all" cannot mean that I don't think.
And here comes D's question, "Well, why not?"
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 4/2/2007 12:21:30 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 4/2/2007 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree. There are distinct substances apart from God and I suspect will remain that way. This is one of the problems of emphasizing the relational pole of the person while de-emphasizing the "in-itselfness" of the substance. Without the "in-itselfness" real being would be a part of, or inhering in some other being and the necessary conditions for any being to exist would be deferred indefinitely.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 4/2/2007 3:15:01 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 4/2/2007 4:53 PM (GMT -6) | | | you guys are having too much fun over here! Theosis, D? Gee, I'm just starting Hart's tsunami book...how far behind am I?
Anyway, good stuff!!
Lemme answer one of your questions before I go:
One said:
What do you think it would look like for a human being currently on earth to be fully "lead" by the Spirit of Christ from moment-to-moment continously?
selah:
selah
   haha ha... no body else thought of putting their name there??? Come on, am I the only one who's reached perfection around here?
ok not funny..carry on 
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/2/2007 6:02 PM (GMT -6) | |
I d o n ' t g e t i t .
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 4/2/2007 6:05:31 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/2/2007 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Jesus: My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Tom: Hey, Jesus posts on our site! Wow!
D, this is interesting. I'm still thinking on it. There are two onenesses here, but both are intertwined. Jesus prays that "they may be one" just as Father and Son are one. This looks to me like you and I and everybody are to be one with each other as Father and Son are one. That's one aspect of it.
Jesus moves from this right into "our" being "one in them" (Father and Son). He prays "May that also be in us...." That looks a bit different. Here we are one with God.
Not sure, but it looks like you have a oneness that "we believers" constitute as we are in each other as Father and Son are in each other. Ten you have a oneness that "we and the triune God" constitute as "we" are in "God" as "Father and Chirst" are in each other.
Correct me if I'm mistaking Jesus here.
But it's quite impossible for me to see how I and you can be one "as" Father and Son are one in every respect. So which are you, the primordial and I the consequent, or am I to be the primordial and you the consequent. The problem is that Father and Son, though one, are distinct. We've talked about this--Father is underived; Son is derived, and so forth. And this is all necessary. How do you and I, and all of us together, be THAT?
It's also hard to see the "oneness" you speak of here as the oneness of theosis, since theosis, I take it you'll agree, FOLLOWS glorification. But Jesus expects the oneness he speaks of here to be an acheivment we reach in this fallen world, one which bekons unbelievers to turn and believe. So whatever this oneness is, Jesus expected us to achieve and incarnate it HERE, prior to glorification, as we live in a fallen world among unbelievers.
Tom
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/2/2007 6:38 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/2/2007 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
D, this is interesting. I'm still thinking on it. There are two onenesses here, but both are intertwined. Jesus prays that "they may be one" just as Father and Son are one. This looks to me like you and I and everybody are to be one with each other as Father and Son are one. That's one aspect of it.
Jesus moves from this right into "our" being "one in them" (Father and Son). He prays "May that also be in us...." That looks a bit different. Here we are one with God.
Not sure, but it looks like you have a oneness that "we believers" constitute as we are in each other as Father and Son are in each other. Ten you have a oneness that "we and the triune God" constitute as "we" are in "God" as "Father and Christ" are in each other.
Both of dimensions of oneness are grounded in the same reality: The One Spirit of God.
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Tom:
But it's quite impossible for me to see how I and you can be one "as" Father and Son are one in every respect. So which are you, the primordial and I the consequent, or am I to be the primordial and you the consequent. The problem is that Father and Son, though one, are distinct. We've talked about this--Father is underived; Son is derived, and so forth. And this is all necessary. How do you and I, and all of us together, be THAT?
Does having "oneness" between two things mean being that two things have to be identical in every respect? No. Is that what bipolar relational unity means? Not as I understand it.
All I'm saying is this:
--Necessary Existence is spirit.
--We are contingent expressions of Necessary Existence that are "spirit beings."
--We (being spirit beings) have a fundamental "bipolar relational unity"(Loder) with Necessary Existence.
Let's chase the implications as we will. But let's keep this on the map.
******************************
Tom:
It's also hard to see the "oneness" you speak of here as the oneness of theosis, since theosis, I take it you'll agree, FOLLOWS glorification. But Jesus expects the oneness he speaks of here to be an acheivment we reach in this fallen world, one which bekons unbelievers to turn and believe. So whatever this oneness is, Jesus expected us to achieve and incarnate it HERE, prior to glorification, as we live in a fallen world among unbelievers.
1. Wasn't Jesus completely "one with God" before his glorification, either the Transfiguration or the Resurrection?
2. In thinking about the the Essence and Energies of God...how they are distinct but part of one reality...it seems to me that the line of continuity is the Holy Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is DEFINITELY part of the Essential nature of God. And the Holy Spirit is DEFINITELY the portal by which we partake in the Energetic nature of God.
Now....for a human being to fully submit to and continously live in the ONE Spirit of God all the time...to be completely CONSUMED with this Holy Fire...
For a human being to rest transparently in the One Spirit's wisdom, power, and grace...such that their life is truly not their own...
For a human being to see God everywhere (including seeing the Image of God in all human beings) and knowing nothing else...
How is this NOT to experience theosis?
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/2/2007 8:04 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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